3 minutes ago, prauxim said:

I never claimed that touching ships take up the same space, I claim that when you contact the other ship you push it over so as to prevent taking up the same space.

If I set my base down and the opponent's base physically moves in the process, do you not consider that overlapping?

Put your hand on a wall. Did your hand contact the wall? Yes. Did it overlap the wall? No because you didn't apply enough force to move it. You don't have to move an object to contact it. I have no idea why on earth you believe that's the case.

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Put your hand on a wall. Did your hand contact the wall? Yes. Did it overlap the wall? No because you didn't apply enough force to move it. You don't have to move an object to contact it. I have no idea why on earth you believe that's the case.

Lol! The wall definitely moves, all objects in the real world deflect under load. Especially plastic bases on rubber mats.

1 minute ago, prauxim said:

Lol! The wall definitely moves, all objects in the real world deflect under load. Especially plastic bases on rubber mats.

Keyword here, if it's not Under Load, or the load that it is under is too low, an object will not move, therefore you can make contact wihtout moving something.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I get that it can happen in theory and on vassal. But on the table it only happens if one of the two players wants it to happen.

Just the wiggle room alone...

Fair. But if it can be legally placed so it touches but doesn't actually move the other ship at all, that is also fair?

It is physically possible to hold 1 or 2 pieces firmly in place and then place another so it touches but does not move or overlap the others. This is how jigsaws function

1 minute ago, MasterShake2 said:

Keyword here, if it's not Under Load, or the load that it is under is too low, an object will not move, therefore you can make contact wihtout moving something.

Nope. Contact requires force and deflection formula have no minimum for force input.

To equalize the force, the contacted base must either slide or transfer the force to the mat via static friction, which would then cause the mat to deflect. In either case, the base moves.

21 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Nope. Contact requires force and deflection formula have no minimum for force input.

To equalize the force, the contacted base must either slide or transfer the force to the mat via static friction, which would then cause the mat to deflect. In either case, the base moves.

No, it doesn't. Contact requires force, but that force does not have to displace either element. If neither element is displaced in the process, neither element has moved, therefore neither element overlapped at any part of the process. Also, I mean technically the platic in the bases have give which also means that, by your premise, contact =/= overlap because the base will warp in an imperceptible way to where neither base is on top of each other, but their position on the mat hasn't changed.

30 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

No, it doesn't. Contact requires force, but that force does not have to displace either element. If neither element is displaced in the process, neither element has moved, therefore neither element overlapped at any part of the process. Also, I mean technically the platic in the bases have give which also means that, by your premise, contact =/= overlap because the base will warp in an imperceptible way to where neither base is on top of each other, but their position on the mat hasn't changed.

Its not about the base 'warping' (deflecting) its about the mat deflecting. When a load is applied to the base either the base must either slide (definitely moving) or transfer the load to the mat, causing the mat to deflect, and the base to move.

You line of though seems to be based Coulomb friction which allows for zero movement under some load, but Coulomb is a simple model with rigid body assumptions, it doesn't take into account elasticity, which is obviously present on a rubber mat. People who actually work with contact usually use models like LuGre or GMS that add in elasticity.

6 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Its not about the base 'warping' (deflecting) its about the mat deflecting. When a load is applied to the base either the base must either slide (definitely moving) or transfer the load to the mat, causing the mat to deflect, and the base to move.

You line of though seems to be based Coulomb friction which allows for zero movement under some load, but Coulomb is a simple model with rigid body assumptions, it doesn't take into account elasticity, which is obviously present on a rubber mat. People who actually work with contact usually use models like LuGre or GMS that add in elasticity.

Counterpoint, even if it moves, if the bases do not overlap and they stay in the same position, the movement is irrelevant because it's a temporary displacement and doesn't alter final placement as to cause the board state known as "overlap"

All of this debate over Range 0 and Overlapping is just making it clear why FFG included this in the RR section on Range:

"Although rare, it is possible for a ship to move in such a way that it is at range 0 of another ship (in physical contact with it) without having overlapped it."

It's almost as if this argument has happened before. Likely on several occasions...

because I think this conversation is pointless, I'll post some stats for the first time in what feels like a while

3 hours ago, svelok said:

3/8 doesn’t scare me yet on precog, that sample size is way too low. 12/30 is starting to maybe make me a little nervous. (To be fair: I’m planning on flying at least one copy of ensnare at all competitive events until something changes)

Double posting, ain’t care.

After extensive single digit number of games testing: I’m liking Chertek over Sun Fac. That 29 extra points (plus bid) of buddies in the Swarm faction seems so much better than trying for perfect information.

Does that sound too much like “I don’t need intel agent, I can just guess their dial”?

35 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

After extensive single digit number of games testing: I’m liking Chertek over Sun Fac. That 29 extra points (plus bid) of buddies in the Swarm faction seems so much better than trying for perfect information.

Not to mention the double reroll has got to come close if it isn’t outright better than an extra die without rerolls.

7 hours ago, svelok said:

Question: is that number of lists with the card, or number of copies of the card?

4 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Question: is that number of lists with the card, or number of copies of the card?

Lists

14 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

That is wrong, it is possible for 2 objects to touch without specifically occupying the same space, therefore it is possible to be at R0 without overlapping. That is how the universe works

Technically speaking, things rarely actually touch. I think the only exception is during Nuclear Reactions. The whole electrons push other things away.

Have there in been HST's since the new RR? See how the Finn and Ensare pass off ruling has affected anything?

42 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

Technically speaking, things rarely actually touch. I think the only exception is during Nuclear Reactions. The whole electrons push other things away.

Have there in been HST's since the new RR? See how the Finn and Ensare pass off ruling has affected anything?

Yeah, but that's an issue imperceptible movement

Finn is still at #3 on metawing and Sun/Chertek are still climbing, so it doesn't look like it's had an impact so far

9 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

Double posting, ain’t care.

After extensive single digit number of games testing: I’m liking Chertek over Sun Fac. That 29 extra points (plus bid) of buddies in the Swarm faction seems so much better than trying for perfect information.

Does that sound too much like “I don’t need intel agent, I can just guess their dial”?

Maybe (tm). Most ships are pretty predictable and it ain't that hard to move the nantex into r1 in arc of all their good end positions.

28 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Maybe (tm). Most ships are pretty predictable and it ain't that hard to move the nantex into r1 in arc of all their good end positions.

™

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the more you know

25 minutes ago, Brunas said:

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the more you know

This is bougie desktop propaganda

Broke: defining touching by coulomb repulsion

Woke: nothings ever touching because atoms can't touch

Bespoke: everythings always touching because interactive forces dont go to zero

40 minutes ago, jagsba said:

This is bougie desktop propaganda

just bookmark that post and come back to copy paste as needed.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

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the more you know

nerd

18 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

nerd

♥ u @Brunas™