Just now, Parakitor said:

I know I'm in the wrong crowd here, but this is eerily similar to how Spined Threshers abused terrain in Runewars, and just about broke the game. And then they cancelled Runewars. Cry.

Also, pretty simple fix - just clarify in the RR that overlapping an obstacle does not count as fully executing. Seems a weird gap, too, IMO.

28 minutes ago, svelok said:

I think the rise of Leia, Jedi, Clouds, etc has contributed directly to the "this is the most meta bored I've ever been, even though I know 2.0 is a better game than 1.0 was" posts.

X-Wing is fun because it's frustratingly limited.

Cheating those limits is fun, until everyone is doing it all the time, and then it loses the constraints that made the cheating fun in the first place. Jedi that can do everything everywhere and constantly have mods and free movement and obstacles they don't care about is refreshing until you realize you're barely playing a game anymore. That refreshment you feel then, is the equal and opposite to the difficult decision making that made decisions feel rewarding in the first place. Like a video game - the first time you use console commands to give yourself a bunch of gold feels good, the second time not quite as good, and before you know it you've removed all the challenge and eventually realize there's no point in even playing anymore because the progression is free and the constraints are lifted. You either limit yourself to some sort of ironman rules, or you lose interest altogether. Unrestricted, every little fun cheat is you robbing yourself of fun you would've had in the future.

It would seem that is the fatal flaw of second edition.

It's not winning the game by playing a card game, like first edition; that was and is a seperate problem. It's cheating the system until it's just not fun for yourself anymore.

It's a fixable flaw, but FFG won't fix it unless it's clear that it needs fixing.

Agreed.

But on the upside, this is at least partly fixable by us as players creating our own constraints and moving a little off-meta. From what I've seen of 2.0, success is built far more on making good, on table decisions with a well grounded squad than 1.0 ever was and hopefully, with more delicate downscale balancing, will remain so.

From my point of view at least, it's therefore a relatively minor problem and suggests any boredom comes primarily from the player, rather than the game itself.

I'm incredibly unbored and only wish I had time for even more games. My 'lists I want to try' list grows exponentially, I can't keep up with it.

I mean, if someone sticks with the same list or faction through thick and thin, or simply grabs each new netlist, then boredom is likely inevitable.

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Sure, but most of those are built around a group buff that gets stronger with more ships (howl, Drea, sinker, Leia). Even vultures, as down as I am on them, have a slightly scaling buff in networked.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Beat me to it.

Doesn't that change the argument from ignoring dials to general group buff?

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Doesn't that change the argument from ignoring dials to general group buff?

It ends up being dial casual because stuff can bump or perform red moves and still get mods. That's my feeling, at least.

32 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I know I'm in the wrong crowd here, but this is eerily similar to how Spined Threshers abused terrain in Runewars, and just about broke the game. And then they cancelled Runewars. Cry.

Some of us here know of what you speak.

Just now, FranquesEnbiens said:

Some of us here know of what you speak.

Nice to see a familiar face around here, and I love the rules/faq you guys are working on!

I don't think we can allow the crypto-runewars players to just post in public.

It's dangerous for the public discourse.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think we can allow the crypto-runewars players to just post in public.

It's dangerous for the public discourse.

X-Wing players action casual.

Runewars players are cultured and do whatever this does.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Also, pretty simple fix - just clarify in the RR that overlapping an obstacle does not count as fully executing. Seems a weird gap, too, IMO.

But it killed the defenders in 1.0 🙄

I certainly did a double take when I read it in 2.0, feels a bit dumb

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Forms of Dial/Action Casual:

1. Pre-movement Reposition
2. Pre-movement Dial Changes
3. K-Turn + Reposition/Modification
4. Stress + Modification
5. Fly Over Rocks + Repositon/Modification
6. Bump + Modification
7. Rear Arc + Boost with Mods
8. Multi Arcs in general
9. Revealing an Opponent's Dials

Five of those can be achieved through simply having a coordinate action in your list.

Just wait till Nantex come out. Bump, Tractor themselves for a repo/rotate, give you the tractor for a repo/debuff, then get mods for you being tractored.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Forms of Dial/Action Casual:

1. Pre-movement Reposition
2. Pre-movement Dial Changes
3. K-Turn + Reposition/Modification
4. Stress + Modification
5. Fly Over Rocks + Repositon/Modification
6. Bump + Modification
7. Rear Arc + Boost with Mods
8. Multi Arcs in general
9. Revealing an Opponent's Dials 

For what it's worth, I disagree that all of those are per se a form of dial/action casual.

Eg nr4, Lonewolf: once per round is a good implementation.

I do agree, however, that those need a good look. They add spice to the game and make it more fun if done right, but also have the potential of ruining the game if done wrong.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

And then they cancelled Runewars. Cry.

Shouldn’t we be celebrating the great Runepeace?

42 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think we can allow the crypto-runewars players to just post in public.

It's dangerous for the public discourse.

This but unironically

26 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Shouldn’t we be celebrating the great Runepeace?

Lol! You know, I never looked at it that way before!

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Doesn't that change the argument from ignoring dials to general group buff?

I don't know if I'm in the minority or not, but I think vultures swarms, Drea stuff, and TIE swarms all feel like good x-wing. Rebel beef does, too. My only gripe with some archetypes there is that some are either just enough too efficient to limit counterplay (rebel beef, Drea looks) or have variance reducing tools that are simply overwhelming (iden). If Vultures were cheaper, and iden, Cassian, and braylenn went up, I'd have zero problems with any of those archetypes being common. They are still about making the correct movement, target priority, and action decisions.

Contrast to something like palob/4L0M+2Jakku, quad phantoms, and supernatural where the goal of the lists is to not play x-wing and not let your opponent play either. Those can get priced to Oblivion and I'd cheer.

Honest Point Adjustment Hopes:

Rebels

• Bwings +
• Cassian +

Scum

• Sycks -
• Z95s -
• Kimogilias -

Empire

• Sigma Phantoms +
• Iden +
• Tie Aggressors -
• Generic Interceptors -

First Order

• Tie FO -

Resistance

• RZ2A +
• YT1300 -
• Star Fortress -

Republic

• Named Torrents -

Separatists

• Vultures -

Upgrades

• Leia +
• Tac Relays -
• Remove Illicit from Rebel YT1300

Missing one or two things, but after that nothing really matters and I hope they are not overly aggressive with point decreases.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Honest Point Adjustment Hopes:

Rebels

• Bwings +
• Cassian +

Scum

• Sycks -
• Z95s -
• Kimogilias -

Empire

• Sigma Phantoms +
• Iden +
• Tie Aggressors -
• Generic Interceptors -

First Order

• Tie FO -

Resistance

• RZ2A +
• YT1300 -
• Star Fortress -

Republic

• Named Torrents -

Separatists

• Vultures -

Upgrades

• Leia +
• Tac Relays -
• Remove Illicit from Rebel YT1300

Missing one or two things, but after that nothing really matters and I hope they are not overly aggressive with point decreases.

VTG+?

3 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

VTG+?

I wouldnt consider it a priority.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I hope they are not overly aggressive with point decreases. 

I might not mind overly aggressive point increases, however. Stop having the aces not be taxed

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

I might not mind overly aggressive point increases, however. Stop having the aces not be taxed

Yea...I think im pretty much assuming this round of point adjustments wont have a "Make every version of x category of thing better or worse" type campaign.

If that happens at all id expect (not hope) sweeping point decreases to bombs and all the stuff that uses bombs.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I wouldnt consider it a priority.

Don't give me false hope! I haven't touched a y-wing in MONTHS because I know in my heart of hearts they're getting nerfed to heck and back.

10 minutes ago, svelok said:

I might not mind overly aggressive point increases, however. Stop having the aces not be taxed

MAKE THE UNACCOUNTED ACCOUNTABLE!

25 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Empire

• Sigma Generic Phantoms +
• Iden +
• Tie Aggressors -
• Generic Interceptors -

Slight adjustment, agree more or less otherwise. Imdaars are on par if not a bit better than Black Sun Enforcers over all efficiency wise and have higher init (3 vs the BSE's 2) yet cost 3 points less. A 1-2 point increase on both of the generic Phantom pilots won't kill them off but should push them up to where more thought is needed before selecting them for a list. Pair that with an general increase to high init prices (I'm hopeful on this, but will probably be very disappointed like I was with the 4 point nerf to Gunrunners, 2 points would have been fine in my opinion but they bowed to the wishes of the perfect information crowd) and they should remain a good option while opening up more possibilities for list building from other ships.

Maybe this is stupid but I don't really mind all the action/dial casual stuff as long as people are required to pay for it.

X-Wing was never advertised as a high-complexity game and I think there's a lot of people who would rather just not have to think too hard to play the game. I know I have nights like that. The social element of X-Wing is huge and there's a lot of times I'll show up at a game night with not a lot of mental energy for the game but still want to participate with my friends.

So yeah, anyway, if I can have a dial-casual list but it's sort of overpriced, that feels fine to me. Supernatural Reflexes and Luke Gunner feel like things that fit in this category. I'm hesitant to use the term "training wheels" because I've always found that patronizing. I don't mean any of this offensively, I honestly think this counts as a playstyle.