So what is more powerful: free actions like decloaking, full throttle, and force, or initiative 6 with a reposition? I would suggest that one of those two elements of a pilot/ship is the most powerful component in x wing.

6 hours ago, svelok said:

Serissu has shown up only 13 times on listfortress at the current 40 point price (and only 6 times before that, at 43 points). Genesis Red only 12 times since points, and Quinn Jast only 7.

How many Black Squadron Scouts have been used?

God, I just want some mass-generic **** to be good that isn't just "3 republic Chonkers and a high-init double repositioner with passive mods" (Obi 3 arc)

6 Black Squadron Scouts as a legal squad when? 6 Sentinel is basically the same as 5 Striker Wampa and that's not good, to say the least.

14 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How many Black Squadron Scouts have been used?

God, I just want some mass-generic **** to be good that isn't just "3 republic Chonkers and a high-init double repositioner with passive mods" (Obi 3 arc)

6 Black Squadron Scouts as a legal squad when? 6 Sentinel is basically the same as 5 Striker Wampa and that's not good, to say the least.

Sinker/Luminara/4 Torrents did just come second at the largest Hyperspace trial in the world so far.

12 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How many Black Squadron Scouts have been used?

I believe it's zero. Let me check...

Looks like once in the last 2 months, and 12 squadrons in the entire life of Second Edition. Something needs to be done about that crazy price jump. I wonder if they are that drastic (4 points up from the Planetary Sentinel) because of Adaptive Ailerons.

8 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Am I the only one who still thinks Force Charges are 1.0 bull? I dont see any reason to play a list that doesnt have a force charge or an equivalent like "assign" in it.

Also, I promise I am not just complaining about whatever mechanic I lost to most recently.

Nah, that can’t be why scum, with its one force user, is failing. Gotta be something else...

10 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Am I the only one who still thinks Force Charges are 1.0 bull? I dont see any reason to play a list that doesnt have a force charge or an equivalent like "assign" in it.

Also, I promise I am not just complaining about whatever mechanic I lost to most recently.

I fully agree, especially 3 force users.

But it only ever works against me. When I play them, force is not useful at all and has basically no impact on the game....

Imo....

Force is ok. (It's expensive)

Regen is ok-ish. (It's too cheap)

Both together are...

4 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

So what is more powerful: free actions like decloaking, full throttle, and force, or initiative 6 with a reposition? I would suggest that one of those two elements of a pilot/ship is the most powerful component in x wing.

20 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Imo....

Force is ok. (It's expensive)

 Regen is ok-ish. (It's too cheap)

Both together are...

If only there was a pilot that combined all of these!

FTC, i6 reposition, 3 force, hating sand, regen

6 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I believe it's zero. Let me check...

Looks like once in the last 2 months, and 12 squadrons in the entire life of Second Edition. Something needs to be done about that crazy price jump. I wonder if they are that drastic (4 points up from the Planetary Sentinel) because of Adaptive Ailerons.

Planetary sentinels aren't good either

29-30 point sentinels and 32-33 point Scouts is probably fair in the current points enviroment.

6 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

So what is more powerful: free actions like decloaking, full throttle, and force, or initiative 6 with a reposition? I would suggest that one of those two elements of a pilot/ship is the most powerful component in x wing.

That's a tough claim to make. Quad Phantoms, rebel beef, Drea swarm, TIE swarm, and more would beg to differ.

Hyperspace only!

Uh, so I've started to look at the latter two thirds of wave 3 from April 20th until the past weekend. The data goes strongly against my (and I guess our) expectations.

1393 lists, I get 95% of all list used in the selected tournaments, and a conversion rate of 21%

Lists with >= 40% (!) conversion rate and at least 5 swiss lists (rate, squads swiss, squads cut):

• Aethersprite, Arc, 3 torrents (60%, 5,3)
• YYYU (60%, 5,3)
• Belbulab, Infiltrator, 3 vultures (50%, 6,3)
• Aethersprite, 2 arcs, 1 torrent (50%, 6,3)
• Vader, Soontir, 3 TIEs (45%, 11,5)
• 2 Arc, 4 torrents (44%,9,4)
• BBUU (43%,7,3)
• Resistance XAAA (43%, 7,3)
• Vader Soontir Bomber (43%, 7,3)
• 8 Vultures (43%, 7,3)
• XYBU (41%, 29,12)
• BBYU (40%, 10,4)
• Vader and 4 TIEs (40%,10,4)

Some important mentions:

• XBBU (34%,70,24)
• XXBU (37%,30,11)
• XXYU (33%,21,7)
• Infernoswarm (23%,56,13)
• 2 Delta 2 Torrent (35%,54,19)
• 2 Delta 1 Arc (15%,20,3)
• 3 Delta (10%,20,2)
• 4Arcs (10%,10,1)
• Resistance XXAA (15%,46,7)
• 5A (24%,5,21)
• Kylo2Up (36%,25,9)

And horrible underperformers (that still made cut at least once!):

• Double Infiltrator (6%,18,1)
• Vader Soontir Reaper (8%,24,2)

edit: holy crap, that's 172 rebel beef. Compare to 56 inferno swarm or 94 double jedi + X lists.

What does "normal" movement and passive modification look like for 2.0 vs what we think it should be?

Forms of Dial/Action Casual:

1. Pre-movement Reposition
2. Pre-movement Dial Changes
3. K-Turn + Reposition/Modification
4. Stress + Modification
5. Fly Over Rocks + Repositon/Modification
6. Bump + Modification
7. Rear Arc + Boost with Mods
8. Multi Arcs in general
9. Revealing an Opponent's Dials

Looking at the Top 25 on Meta-wing since the beginning of Wave 3 every list Dials Casual in some significant way.

• Should 2.0 dials and actions be more "formal" than they currently are?
• FFG addressed Supernatural Reflexes but will they do anything about other less obvious mechanics that damage the integrity of the dial?
• Is this his stuff just widely viewed as "adding acceptable flavor to gameplay & movement"? If thats the case I assume power creep will be used to address balance over time.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

edit: holy crap, that's 172 rebel beef. Compare to 56 inferno swarm or 94 double jedi + X lists.

Hey, member when I said 'no one' plays TIE swarms.

This is what I meant.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Looking at the Top 25 on Meta-wing since the beginning of Wave 3 every list Dials Casual in some significant way.

• Should 2.0 dials and actions be more "formal" than they currently are? Can you elaborate on whether you want this as a rules adjustment to the game or just you prefer the state/meta of the game to have more predominant "standard" dials and actions? Defining your "formal" wording might be helpful too.
• FFG addressed Supernatural Reflexes but will they do anything about other mechanics that damage the integrity of the dial? Hopefully and likely will deal with costs of those mechanics not rule changes, except maybe gas clouds.
• Is this his stuff just widely viewed as "adding acceptable flavor to gameplay"? If thats the case I assume power creep will be used to address balance over time. I'd accept the "adding flavor to gameplay" as long as it's costed correctly in comparison to other ships/pilots that don't have access to any of those flavors. Right now, the gap between them is too small.

Yeah, right now it's "pay X for a regular ship, pay X+Y for an action/dial casual ship". Y is small enough compared to X right now that paying Y is almost always the right choice. Not paying for Y usually gets you, what, and extra ship that's notably worse? 2.0 isn't as bad as 1.0, but we're still in the tyranny of elite ships that move last, punch harder, and shoot first. Getting an extra normal ship isn't enough to enough to make up for it, because usually that normal ship is dead pretty quickly, then you're matched up in even numbers but against better ships.

4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Imo....

Force is ok. (It's expensive)

Regen is ok-ish. (It's too cheap)

Both together are...

As much as I agree with you, I'm waiting hopelessly for BB9E to be equipable for the Silencer. Which would give it the R2/R3/R4 astro slot. All of which good options depending on budget.

While we're at it:

BB9E: 3 charges

After you inflict a critical damage to a defender, you may spend 1 charge to recover 1 shield.

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Getting an extra normal ship is close to enough to make up for it, because usually that normal ship is dead pretty quickly, then you're matched up in even numbers but against better ships. 

I agree, but if you look at the >=40% conversion rate ships in hyperspace then you'll notice an average ship/list ratio of 4.63. That is surprisingly high

23 minutes ago, RStan said:

I can elaborate a bit more later. For now it boils down to Id prefer the meta have more standard dials/repositions/movement loops.
And I dont want to see the game in a place where ships are generally not afraid of K-Turns, Blocks, Rocks, or Stress. That seems like a fundamental problem.

The vast majority of players seem to fall into "all of these passive mods and cost free movement options are fun and totally costed fine. Why dont the bad things that dont have them also do these things?"

Instead of, "well thats really powerful and obviously not normal maybe it should be frustratingly expensive or not possible to begin with if your already an ace moving last etc".

I'd really like for "fully execute a maneuver" to be redefined to require not hitting an obstacle. Either that or obstacles having a flat effect along the lines of "after a ship overlaps this obstacle it cannot perform actions for the remainder of [its activation] / [the phase]". There are too many triggers occurring outside the perform action step that are making obstacle penalties irrelevant.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

agree, but if you look at the >=40% conversion rate ships in hyperspace then you'll notice an average ship/list ratio of 4.63. That is surprisingly high

Sure, but most of those are built around a group buff that gets stronger with more ships (howl, Drea, sinker, Leia). Even vultures, as down as I am on them, have a slightly scaling buff in networked.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree, but if you look at the >=40% conversion rate ships in hyperspace then you'll notice an average ship/list ratio of 4.63. That is surprisingly high

4 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Sure, but most of those are built around a group buff that gets stronger with more ships (howl, Drea, sinker, Leia). Even vultures, as down as I am on them, have a slightly scaling buff in networked.

Beat me to it.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I can elaborate a bit more later. For now it boils down to Id prefer the meta have more standard dials/repositions/movement loops.
And I dont want to see the game in a place where ships are generally not afraid of K-Turns, Blocks, Rocks, or Stress. That seems like a fundamental problem.

The vast majority of players seem to fall into "all of these passive mods and cost free movement options are fun and totally costed fine. Why dont the bad things that dont have them also do these things?"

Instead of, "well thats really powerful and obviously not normal maybe it should be frustratingly expensive or not possible to begin with if your already an ace moving last etc".

I agree and hopefully the part I bolded is what ends up happening. These aces are being held unaccountable for their effects on the game today and we cannot stand for this. We must end the regime that acquiesces to disorder of the dials. At this very moment, the aces far above LIES TO THE PEOPLE while secretly claiming innocence under the treachery of the loathsome plot armor. This fierce machine which FFG has built, upon which we play will bring an end to our cherished fleet of generics. All remaining named pilots will bow to the Generic Order and will remember this day as the last day of the unaccounted!

11 minutes ago, RStan said:

I agree and hopefully the part I bolded is what ends up happening. These aces are being held unaccountable for their effects on the game today and we cannot stand for this. We must end the regime that acquiesces to disorder of the dials. At this very moment, the aces far above LIES TO THE PEOPLE while secretly claiming innocence under the treachery of the loathsome plot armor. This fierce machine which FFG has built, upon which we play will bring an end to our cherished fleet of generics. All remaining named pilots will bow to the Generic Order and will remember this day as the last day of the unaccounted!

So we need a generic Starkiller Base?

I think the rise of Leia, Jedi, Clouds, etc has contributed directly to the "this is the most meta bored I've ever been, even though I know 2.0 is a better game than 1.0 was" posts.

X-Wing is fun because it's frustratingly limited.

Cheating those limits is fun, until everyone is doing it all the time, and then it loses the constraints that made the cheating fun in the first place. Jedi that can do everything everywhere and constantly have mods and free movement and obstacles they don't care about is refreshing until you realize you're barely playing a game anymore. That refreshment you feel then, is the equal and opposite to the difficult decision making that made decisions feel rewarding in the first place. Like a video game - the first time you use console commands to give yourself a bunch of gold feels good, the second time not quite as good, and before you know it you've removed all the challenge and eventually realize there's no point in even playing anymore because the progression is free and the constraints are lifted. You either limit yourself to some sort of ironman rules, or you lose interest altogether. Unrestricted, every little fun cheat is you robbing yourself of fun you would've had in the future.

It would seem that is the fatal flaw of second edition.

It's not winning the game by playing a card game, like first edition; that was and is a seperate problem. It's cheating the system until it's just not fun for yourself anymore.

It's a fixable flaw, but FFG won't fix it unless it's clear that it needs fixing.

57 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I'd really like for "fully execute a maneuver" to be redefined to require not hitting an obstacle. Either that or obstacles having a flat effect along the lines of "after a ship overlaps this obstacle it cannot perform actions for the remainder of [its activation] / [the phase]". There are too many triggers occurring outside the perform action step that are making obstacle penalties irrelevant.

I know I'm in the wrong crowd here, but this is eerily similar to how Spined Threshers abused terrain in Runewars, and just about broke the game. And then they cancelled Runewars. Cry.