Unrelated question: how cheap does Kestal have to be to be worth taking? In casual games, I have her run as a diet-Blackout, engaging people through clouds and getting defensive bonuses whilst denying the opponent's theirs (I run her with barrage, juke, and a dorsal if I'm feeling spendthrifty). She's a neat anti-ace piece, but can get pricey for a shittier version of a TIE Bomber, and that alone renders her at the very most C+ tier. Which is a shame, because one-shotting Soontir with all the mods and stealth behind a cloud with Juke + ability to delete all the dice or doing the same to that Fenn at R1 that really should have shot her and not the juicier target is always a laughing matter. Unless you're the opponent.

Language!

1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

Unrelated question: how cheap does Kestal have to be to be worth taking? In casual games, I have her run as a diet-Blackout, engaging people through clouds and getting defensive bonuses whilst denying the opponent's theirs (I run her with barrage, juke, and a dorsal if I'm feeling spendthrifty). She's a neat anti-ace piece, but can get pricey for a shittier version of a TIE Bomber, and that alone renders her at the very most C+ tier. Which is a shame, because one-shotting Soontir with all the mods and stealth behind a cloud with Juke + ability to delete all the dice or doing the same to that Fenn at R1 that really should have shot her and not the juicier target is always a laughing matter. Unless you're the opponent.

I’m legit not sure that you can price her reasonably AND attractively. She’s already cheap!

Because you can’t mod with your focus, your odds of hitting are not super great unless you also add on Fifth Brother. I’d play around with it at 30, but then it seems problematic compared to other ships at that price.

Edit - Kestal with 5th Brother and Barrage will do an average of ~ 1 damage against 3 agility, and costs 52 points to field. A homing missile Scimitar costs 35 and does guaranteed 1 (and likely more if they’re dumb enough to let you roll for it). I’m not spending an extra 17 points for I4 to do the same damage.

God, they made an FO striker?

at least the bomber looks different .

32 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I’m legit not sure that you can price her reasonably AND attractively. She’s already cheap!

Because you can’t mod with your focus, your odds of hitting are not super great unless you also add on Fifth Brother. I’d play around with it at 30, but then it seems problematic compared to other ships at that price.

You can mod with Palp and, if you're using Jendon, the lock you snagged earlier. You coordinate either the focus or the evade with the shuttle, and then take your action to do what the shuttle did not coordinate. Voila! You now have juke active, the focus needed to fire the rockets and to deny dice, and the evade to fiddle with your opponent's dice. Palp typically suffices for your focus mod, but given how much weaker force is to focus, that lock from Jendon comes in handy.

The odds of hitting are actually spectacularly good. They have to natty two evades on their roll to even mitigate any of your damage. Even with a weaker-than-normal attack, that is super powerful. On average, your Juke and ability will outright cancel each and every green die. Heck, you don't even need the Juke if they get their heroic roll, and then you be the ******* that mods their dice before their reroll.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQECAAABAAAA

edit: if you have the lock from earlier, the damage curve looks like this: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MwECAAABAAAA

3 hours ago, gennataos said:

I need to move to South Carolina.

Rebel beef without Leia? Tie salad without Vader? Kylo takes the whole event?

Oh, it’s beautiful. And that’s just the top 4.

4 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

You can mod with Palp and, if you're using Jendon, the lock you snagged earlier. You coordinate either the focus or the evade with the shuttle, and then take your action to do what the shuttle did not coordinate. Voila! You now have juke active, the focus needed to fire the rockets and to deny dice, and the evade to fiddle with your opponent's dice. Palp typically suffices for your focus mod, but given how much weaker force is to focus, that lock from Jendon comes in handy.

The odds of hitting are actually spectacularly good. They have to natty two evades on their roll to even mitigate any of your damage. Even with a weaker-than-normal attack, that is super powerful. On average, your Juke and ability will outright cancel each and every green die. Heck, you don't even need the Juke if they get their heroic roll, and then you be the ******* that mods their dice before their reroll.

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQECAAABAAAA

edit: if you have the lock from earlier, the damage curve looks like this: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=AwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MwECAAABAAAA

I mean, sure, do what you want? But this seems wayyyyy too much investment for a non-ace meta. If your support piece folds, Kestal can’t close. If Kestal gets focused down, your support won’t close.

Personally, I’m looking at counter-beef like double Upsilons with Kylo.

Just now, PaulRuddSays said:

I mean, sure, do what you want? But this seems wayyyyy too much investment for a non-ace meta. If your support piece folds, Kestal can’t close. If Kestal gets focused down, your support won’t close.

Personally, I’m looking at counter-beef like double Upsilons with Kylo.

Exactly. Hence the question: how cheap does she have to be in order to play her in a meta where aces are either support or only in imperial lists? I find her design space extremely interesting, especially with rigging the engagement with gas clouds a la Q'ira, Blackout, Dash Rendarr, etc. People spam the clouds and it's always interesting to join them in the spam but also make their own obstacles their demise.

1 hour ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Rebel beef without Leia? Tie salad without Vader? Kylo takes the whole event?

Oh, it’s beautiful. And that’s just the top 4.

Kylo was first after swiss.

no-Leia Beef won the whole event

26 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

no-Leia Beef won the whole event

I see this, I picture the kid on their bike...

"Look, ma! No Leia!"

@Biophysical

I see you too are a man of culture as well. I also thought about what we had to do in 1.0 to beat turrets, and I drifted to a palp defender and kitted out Soontir list once fat Han came about, and it's been money. It does exactly what I want it to do, not die to 3 ship lists or lower. Turns out Palp aces are good at lots of mods and not taking damage, it was unknowable.

25 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

@Biophysical

I see you too are a man of culture as well. I also thought about what we had to do in 1.0 to beat turrets, and I drifted to a palp defender and kitted out Soontir list once fat Han came about, and it's been money. It does exactly what I want it to do, not die to 3 ship lists or lower. Turns out Palp aces are good at lots of mods and not taking damage, it was unknowable.

What's the build? Seems like Defender/ Soontir/Palp doesnt leave a ton of room for Soontir to be fat.

28 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

What's the build? Seems like Defender/ Soontir/Palp doesnt leave a ton of room for Soontir to be fat.

Omicron palp shuttle, soontir with predator and shield upgrade, and either Rexlar with predator or naked Ryad. Comes out to 200 exactly, I just can't decide which defender I want.

I think you want Rexlar because i4 at 200 is too risky with phantoms.

On 5/7/2019 at 8:20 AM, PaulRuddSays said:

Are Null and Scorch collectively better than an Upsilon? I haven’t gotten much FO table time, but I would guess you might be better off with Tavson.

On 5/7/2019 at 9:37 AM, DoubleDown11 said:

I love Tavson, but for these FO Salad type lists, I've also started to lean towards finding a way to get four ships in there, mostly so I dont end up totally DOA in an endgame. Scorch and/or Zeta is an endgame you are probably losing. Tavson solo is an endgame you are definitely losing.

I mean ideally neither of these is happening, but if every game went ideally...

Upsilons are really not my style. Too hard to disengage and if it's just him in the end game I'm screwed. After talking with some other people I'm leaning more towards another Ace list:

F/O Aces (191)
Kylo Ren — TIE/vn Silencer	76
Hate	3
Advanced Optics	4
Ship Total: 83
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 3
 	
“Blackout” — TIE/vn Silencer	64
Trick Shot	2
Pattern Analyzer	5
Ship Total: 71
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 3
 	
“Scorch” — TIE/FO Fighter	35
Fanatical	2
Ship Total: 37
Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

1 hour ago, impspy said:

Upsilons are really not my style. Too hard to disengage and if it's just him in the end game I'm screwed. After talking with some other people I'm leaning more towards another Ace list:

F/O Aces (191)
Kylo Ren — TIE/vn Silencer	76
Hate	3
Advanced Optics	4
Ship Total: 83
Half Points: 42 Threshold: 3
 	
“Blackout” — TIE/vn Silencer	64
Trick Shot	2
Pattern Analyzer	5
Ship Total: 71
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 3
 	
“Scorch” — TIE/FO Fighter	35
Fanatical	2
Ship Total: 37
Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

I think that’s a pretty fun squad but I’d do lone wolf over trick shot in blackout, trick shot istrendy, it has a cool alt art blackout that you can use, but survival is still more important

2 hours ago, TheOz said:

I think that’s a pretty fun squad but I’d do lone wolf over trick shot in blackout, trick shot istrendy, it has a cool alt art blackout that you can use, but survival is still more important

Eh, stick behind clouds and you're golden. But because of blank to evade for the defender's clouds, trickshot helps pump the damage. Lone wolf was pretty dandy for BO, but those were the days before autothruster clouds that were not limited to 1 recurring charge that far too often (3/8) blanks into a blank. And lucky you for having a store that has the art! *simmering*

11 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

God, they made an FO striker?

at least the bomber looks different .

no thats just a fan render

17 hours ago, player3010587 said:

You can mod with Palp and, if you're using Jendon, the lock you snagged earlier. You coordinate either the focus or the evade with the shuttle, and then take your action to do what the shuttle did not coordinate. Voila! You now have juke active, the focus needed to fire the rockets and to deny dice, and the evade to fiddle with your opponent's dice. Palp typically suffices for your focus mod, but given how much weaker force is to focus, that lock from Jendon comes in handy.

It's a good trick.

I'm a fan of Kestal but can only find room in a 4 ship list. Otherwise he's waaay too easily destroyed. But then I often have more worthy recipients of the coord, like FCS Maarek for example.

It's a difficult price point, because he can so easily become genuinely fearsome with support. Just Barrage and Dorsal in our current list, at 45, which is not bad at all if we can spare the coord at the right time.

But if Kestal drops, they all have to or he remains the only one worth taking. 3pt off all of them? Enough to swing Kestal? Trick Shot, Barrage, Dorsal at 44 seems a really good deal. Add 5th Bro for 53.... if you're feeling particularly saucy.

Does 6 Ion Sienar Specialists become a thing at 31?

34pt for Barrage in that case, so you can still only get 5 of them in....

Honestly, the main problem I have with Kestal is notsomuch the price as the really predictable dial and incredible squishyness. Threat and damage output are fine for the cost, survivability is the main issue with actually getting that value. There is a conundrum there that almost prevents a good price, like she is fair, but just too much work to keep alive and triggering.

It links to another topic I'm keen on. Toolbox Imperial lists, something we've been low key toying with in the background, as we go along and find new tools to try. It seems either rather unexplored or just not really good enough as an archetype, judging by the lack of it on tables. Aside from the well known Imperial Salad ofc.

Kestal has a solid place in that box. Squishy and demanding but potent, just like her squad mates. But at 45-50pt, there's much competition for her slot. 45 or less with some good tricks and it's one of the better options.

so, uh... May the 4th had 17 (!!!) hyperspace trials

I didn't even take a look at how many are filled out entirely because unfortunately, I don't have time to take a closer look

What is the worst matchup for RebelBeef in extended?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

What is the worst matchup for RebelBeef in extended?

MetaWing shows Kylo+2Ups doing pretty well against the combined b/u/x/y archetype sets.

5 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

MetaWing shows Kylo+2Ups doing pretty well against the combined b/u/x/y archetype sets.

Correct, that list isn't great but it benefits alot from Beef being so prevalent. The Upsilons are Hungry. Loses pretty badly to Aces with a brain though.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

What is the worst matchup for RebelBeef in extended?

In my experience, juke and nuke more often than not trivializes it. R1 of combat, rex and whisper wound an over-extended b-wing or sheathipeade, and Maarek totals it. Round 2 of combat, the gang erase another brawler, a u wing, or even Wedge. After that, disperse, regroup, and torment (although with white 4k and candy canes, the jukers can keep fighting). Even in the beef game that I was certainly outplayed at Adepticon, the raw dps and resilience of my ships carried me.

Bizarrely enough, I was teching against drea scurgs, but didn't face them. I goofed in my bubble game to phantoms and lost, so there's that to consider, although the list for sure would take the now legal clouds.

4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

It's a good trick.

I'm a fan of Kestal but can only find room in a 4 ship list. Otherwise he's waaay too easily destroyed. But then I often have more worthy recipients of the coord, like FCS Maarek for example.

It's a difficult price point, because he can so easily become genuinely fearsome with support. Just Barrage and Dorsal in our current list, at 45, which is not bad at all if we can spare the coord at the right time.

But if Kestal drops, they all have to or he remains the only one worth taking. 3pt off all of them? Enough to swing Kestal? Trick Shot, Barrage, Dorsal at 44 seems a really good deal. Add 5th Bro for 53.... if you're feeling particularly saucy.

Does 6 Ion Sienar Specialists become a thing at 31?

34pt for Barrage in that case, so you can still only get 5 of them in....

Honestly, the main problem I have with Kestal is notsomuch the price as the really predictable dial and incredible squishyness. Threat and damage output are fine for the cost, survivability is the main issue with actually getting that value. There is a conundrum there that almost prevents a good price, like she is fair, but just too much work to keep alive and triggering.

It links to another topic I'm keen on. Toolbox Imperial lists, something we've been low key toying with in the background, as we go along and find new tools to try. It seems either rather unexplored or just not really good enough as an archetype, judging by the lack of it on tables. Aside from the well known Imperial Salad ofc.

Kestal has a solid place in that box. Squishy and demanding but potent, just like her squad mates. But at 45-50pt, there's much competition for her slot. 45 or less with some good tricks and it's one of the better options.

My problem is that I run Kestal like a 1st edition autoblaster: what I roll is what you take. For that I need juke, and thus coordinate, and now my other i4 a-holes are either reduced to countdown and 7th sister, or a defender/Soontir. With 2 pocket aces, I don't have a good endgame so I have to alpha hard, except Kestal is sadly the hardest-hitting gun. I've had jolly fun with Soontir or a defender, but that means Kestal is ironically cagey: quite the control piece. If Kestal were merely Whisper and some toys for the defender/Rexler, I'd be better off.

So I know I shouldn't Kestal, but I'm torn cause I reaaaaaaly want to, lol. Just like my efforts to do something with named V19s.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

What is the worst matchup for RebelBeef in extended?

I’d fear a well flown TIE swarm

Edit - oh, Extended...