4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

How many points should heroic cost?

1. I've been playing five A-wings, and I'm triggering Heroic about 1.5 times a game. (Not 1.5 times per ship ... 1.5 times per game.) So far the reroll has mattered 80% of the time.

(Yes, I am a little compulsive in tracking these things. I have to be. Otherwise nobody believes me when I tell them I rolled 14 blank green dice in a row. (Actually happened at my last Hyperspace Trial. I was flying Han with Lando.))

6 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

So, after all the panic and discussions, has anyone tried Jack's Han Jake hyperspace list?

I flew it yesterday, once with perfect knowledge with Jake and another one where he moved before everything else.

I was totally unimpressed by it. If anything, I felt like it was a downgrade from the Han Wedge I was toying with a couple of months ago.

Jake was acting like a green dice dependent biggs at best and a totally waste of 56 points at worst, while Han kept his incredibly high red dice dependance: if you are running what basically is a one ship list, even a single turn with cold reds might spell doom.

Besides the design, theoratical and philosophical concerns the list seems to raise in this forum, has anyone got some actual table time with or against it? What's your feelings?

My silence is merely I haven't seen HS version, one way or the other.

5 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Well, see? That's where you've gone wrong. You need to believe harder, despite what the number of numbers say about it.

TWTW

Ruthlessing a fairly healthy friend for hit, hit, crit into a 2 dice, shieldless defence is value. There are many synergies where pushing a damage through can be key. Consider it a sideways Crack Shot, where you pay a game cost for an easier, maybe repeatable proc. Some games I've not even used it, but 1pt is 1pt.

When a lot of Imperial ships either lack the lock action or really want a green token instead, blank mitigation gets a little better.

35 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

My silence is merely I haven't seen HS version, one way or the other.

It's not as good (5 positions instead of 8, stopping multiple turns in a row is less viable, getting action >>> taking a stress), but fundamental problem of the 'feels bad' is still very strongly there

35 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

TWTW

TWTW

Ruthless is such a fun card. Sorry Sai but the strikers demand guidance chips.

8 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

So, after all the panic and discussions, has anyone tried Jack's Han Jake hyperspace list?

I flew it yesterday, once with perfect knowledge with Jake and another one where he moved before everything else.

I was totally unimpressed by it. If anything, I felt like it was a downgrade from the Han Wedge I was toying with a couple of months ago.

Jake was acting like a green dice dependent biggs at best and a totally waste of 56 points at worst, while Han kept his incredibly high red dice dependance: if you are running what basically is a one ship list, even a single turn with cold reds might spell doom.

Besides the design, theoratical and philosophical concerns the list seems to raise in this forum, has anyone got some actual table time with or against it? What's your feelings?

played against it last night with Obi-Three ARCs. Obi murdered Jake and the three medium bases bullied Han until he died.

Unimpressed*

* it was my opponent's first game with the list, though he ran 1.0 Fat Han at pretty much every event he went to.

51 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

played against it last night with Obi-Three ARCs. Obi murdered Jake and the three medium bases bullied Han until he died.

Unimpressed*

* it was my opponent's first game with the list, though he ran 1.0 Fat Han at pretty much every event he went to.

If you can get Han boxed into a corner it's a short game for him. It's just a skill game between players to get him there. Fat Han is like super dash. Both want room to roam.

17 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Looking forwards to the batt-rep

here you go

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

here you go

"This game convinced me that the loud voices calling for a change on Fat Han are right"

I don't know, single game is already a pretty poor sample for ending the report with such statements and, from what I get from your report, this game in particular seems hard to be taken as proof.

You were playing against someone you had no idea how good he was who was also playing a subpar list (or, if not subpar at least largely unproven).

He also played it quite poorly: he didn't spread out arcs, he directly split his force! He went neither at Jake nor Han, doing just something in between. He was also in a position, having 3 ps 5 ships, to quite easily go after Jake: you are right noting that doing that didn't work against Jack, but on stream Jack was playing Phantoms who moved after Jake, not ps 5 ships who could remove the A-wing from the table in a single turn if he happened to end in more than one arc.

You basically had the perfect scenario to make Han shine: enemy ships were coming at you one by one! Jake wasn't really threatened by anything the whole game!

I'm also pretty uneducated in math, but doesn't this mean the chance to one shot Duchess was just 12%? If I got it right, this and also the turn before when you took 0 damage while landing 4 on Maarek (what was his action?) are also pretty huge dice swing that, while probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of a game your opponent had appoached too poorly, might have changed your perception on the power level of the list

Winning it 200 to 0 was still a good achievement considering you had almost no previous large base experience and repetable, stressless 0 stops are pretty lame, but I find hard to consider this game as proof of anything other than how to not play against a fat han.

Keep the blog going! I like it!

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't know, single game is already a pretty poor sample for ending the report with such statements and, from what I get from your report, this game in particular seems hard to be taken as proof. 

Sure, that is not wrong. But you're forgetting a very important factor here: me. I had no clue what I was doing. Now, however good or bad you think I am is something I don't know. But the fact that I won 200-0 when I virtually never win 200-0 should give you some pause. It did for me.

My last 11 games were: 200-80, 200-60, 200-100, 109-120, 82-200, 200-118, 200-33, 200-0*, 200-92, 200-0 (Han), 200-125. All but 3 were tournament or league games.

*the difference between this opponent and the one who played against Han was quite large.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

He also played it quite poorly: he didn't spread out arcs, he directly split his force! He went neither at Jake nor Han, doing just something in between. He was also in a position, having 3 ps 5 ships, to quite easily go after Jake: you are right noting that doing that didn't work against Jack, but on stream Jack was playing Phantoms who moved after Jake, not ps 5 ships who could remove the A-wing from the table in a single turn if he happened to end in more than one arc.

Even if he had gone after Jake: a 200-47 is the best, and then without criticism that he played poorly.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

If I got it right, this and also the turn before when you took 0 damage while landing 4 on Maarek (what was his action?) are also pretty huge dice swing that, while probably wouldn't have changed the outcome of a game your opponent had appoached too poorly, might have changed your perception on the power level of the list

No, the 53% were correct because Duchess had taken a damage on the previous turn. The dice swing on Maarek is true, though 2 damage is at 68% and 3 at 27%, so 2 or 3 were expected. My overkill meant that the dice swing did not matter too much, at least not besides mental impact.

Here's a maybe more nuanced opinion:

1. The reasoning behind the NPE did not change, and that batt rep wasn't about it. It was more about the strength of the list. And Inert Fat Han is so good that a scrub like me can pick it up and do well against a very, very large percentage of the player base*. If it requires a player of the caliber of Blair or Tyler to beat it, with either the other meta monster or a high ship count list, then FatHan is quite a problem with respect to its strength.
2. Both NPE-elements and high performance mean that it's a big problem, not just a theoretical or philosophical one about what we want in the game.
3. If we find on top of NPE-elements and high performance that the list is also very widespread - and first rumors from Hannover say so - then it is an urgent problem.

edit: *that is still unfounded. I will probably take the list to a small 15player extended tournament in two weeks. The alternative is to bring republics or awings. Clearly, Han is the best list out of the three, by a large margin.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure, that is not wrong. But you're forgetting a very important factor here: me. I had no clue what I was doing. Now, however good or bad you think I am is something I don't know. But the fact that I won 200-0 when I virtually never win 200-0 should give you some pause. It did for me.

My last 11 games were: 200-80, 200-60, 200-100, 109-120, 82-200, 200-118, 200-33, 200-0*, 200-92, 200-0 (Han), 200-125. All but 3 were tournament or league games.

*the difference between this opponent and the one who played against Han was quite large.

Even if he had gone after Jake: a 200-47 is the best, and then without criticism that he played poorly.

No, the 53% were correct because Duchess had taken a damage on the previous turn. The dice swing on Maarek is true, though 2 damage is at 68% and 3 at 27%, so 2 or 3 were expected. My overkill meant that the dice swing did not matter too much, at least not besides mental impact.

Here's a maybe more nuanced opinion:

1. The reasoning behind the NPE did not change, and that batt rep wasn't about it. It was more about the strength of the list. And Inert Fat Han is so good that a scrub like me can pick it up and do well against a very, very large percentage of the player base*. If it requires a player of the caliber of Blair or Tyler to beat it, with either the other meta monster or a high ship count list, then FatHan is quite a problem with respect to its strength.
2. Both NPE-elements and high performance mean that it's a big problem, not just a theoretical or philosophical one about what we want in the game.
3. If we find on top of NPE-elements and high performance that the list is also very widespread - and first rumors from Hannover say so - then it is an urgent problem.

edit: *that is still unfounded. I will probably take the list to a small 15player extended tournament in two weeks. The alternative is to bring republics or awings. Clearly, Han is the best list out of the three, by a large margin.

A reminder that a bunch of people are going to scrub out with Han in the system opens this week, and that doesn't mean the list is okay. The list is bad because it removes agency (e.g. your dials don't matter because my dial hardly does). It is bad for the game regardless of who does what with it.

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The list is bad because it removes agency (e.g. your dials don't matter because my dial hardly does).

And this right there is all that should matter. Frequency and performance are convenient and quick ways to sell the idea. And they do increase the problem.

But even without high performance or high frequency, FFG should change it.

On 4/26/2019 at 12:25 AM, Cuz05 said:

Barons.... Yeah well, who cares.....

On 4/26/2019 at 12:45 AM, Hiemfire said:

I do. The only keeping me from running them with Ved is I can't get a hold of the minis without breaking the bank...

So, to reconnect on this and make a point about assumptions. On the same day as this, my boy made a list, sort of at random, and kicked my head in with it.

Maarek, Feroph (Vader), Kestal.... a Baron with FCS.

The Baron is a massive winner. Especially with a Coord from Feroph.

So, we're combining ideas and working another TIE Adv in for Kestal. I kinda have him playing with Ved on the table now. Coincidentally.

(I want to put Vader in his x1 but the boy isn't having it).

It's an evolving list that seems to be just smashing all of our others atm. The Baron looks like a keeper.

Looking fwd to this ship hitting HS.

Quick Denver Stats:

12 FO

50 Rebel

46 Empire

13 Resistance

13 Separatist

8 Republic

17 Scum

14 Han

18 5+ Wins

• 4 Quad Phantoms
• 1 Han
• 3 Scum

Denver top cut:

Drea + 3 Loks
Quad Phantoms
Quad Phantoms
Vader + 3 Nus
Maul/Dooku
Vader/Jendon/Vynder
Drea + 3 Loks
Wedge/Ten/Braylen/Cassian
Vader + 3 Phantoms
Quad Phantoms
Quad Phantoms
Vader/Soontir/Whisper
Quickdraw + 2 First Order Test Pilots
Wedge/Heff/Arvel/Blount/Bandit
Inert Han/Lando
Kylo/Tavson/Starkiller
Wedge/Ten/Braylen/Cassian
Nym/Torani/Hired Gun/Jakku Gunrunner

24 minutes ago, svelok said:

Denver top cut:

Drea + 3 Loks
Quad Phantoms
Quad Phantoms
Vader + 3 Nus
Maul/Dooku
Vader/Jendon/Vynder
Drea + 3 Loks
Wedge/Ten/Braylen/Cassian
Vader + 3 Phantoms
Quad Phantoms
Quad Phantoms
Vader/Soontir/Whisper
Quickdraw + 2 First Order Test Pilots
Wedge/Heff/Arvel/Blount/Bandit
Inert Han/Lando
Kylo/Tavson/Starkiller
Wedge/Ten/Braylen/Cassian
Nym/Torani/Hired Gun/Jakku Gunrunner

No republic makes me a little sad... but I want to know more about the Wedge/Heff/Arvel/Blount/Bandit .

19 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

No republic makes me a little sad... but I want to know more about the Wedge/Heff/Arvel/Blount/Bandit .

Only 8 brought it. I know at least one made top 32.

Its up: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/583

40 minutes ago, svelok said:

Denver top cut:

Drea + 3 Loks - Standard jousty fare
Quad Phantoms - Things that don't move forwards and joust well
Quad Phantoms - Things that don't move forwards and joust well
Vader + 3 Nus - Standard jousty fare
Maul/Dooku - Combo nonsense
Vader/Jendon/Vynder - Trench Run variant/equivalent
Drea + 3 Loks - Standard jousty fare
Wedge/Ten/Braylen/Cassian - Standard jousty fare
Vader + 3 Phantoms - Standard jousty fare
Quad Phantoms - Things that don't move forwards and joust well
Quad Phantoms - Things that don't move forwards and joust well
Vader/Soontir/Whisper - Trench Run variant/equivalent
Quickdraw + 2 First Order Test Pilots - What is this doing here
Wedge/Heff/Arvel/Blount/Bandit - Standard jousty fare
Inert Han/Lando - Fat Turrets
Kylo/Tavson/Starkiller - Trench Run variant/equivalent
Wedge/Ten/Braylen/Cassian - Standard jousty fare
Nym/Torani/Hired Gun/Jakku Gunrunner - Bomb Combo

BRING ME THE FIRST ORDER TEST PILOT GUY

Seriously though, that's by far the worst list in that cut, and that makes him the most interesting player in that cut.

If you know this guy (BCP says Mitchel Hurst) please get him to reach out to me.

I want to interview him, but he also won a full set of AA FO cards for having the balls big enough to play that.

That's a pretty cool cut. And seriously QD/2 Silencers making the system open cut is awesome. That list is really cool, but having played it a modest number of times, it definitely feels underpowered compared to a lot of that stuff. Way to guy man.

22 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

BRING ME THE FIRST ORDER TEST PILOT GUY

Seriously though, that's by far the worst list in that cut, and that makes him the most interesting player in that cut.

If you know this guy (BCP says Mitchel Hurst) please get him to reach out to me.

I want to interview him, but he also won a full set of AA FO cards for having the balls big enough to play that.

Just sent him a link of this thread for you. Local player to SoCal, plays a ton of FO since he started playing the game.

7 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Just sent him a link of this thread for you. Local player to SoCal, plays a ton of FO since he started playing the game.

Actual picture of the Hero of the First Order.

I think the all Imp i5 5 ship list wasn't in the list @svelok made. #7 in Listfortress. Scourge, Mauler, Maarek, Howlrunner and Duchess. @Kaptin Krunch what do you categorize that in?

Edited: Potentially incorrect data?

42 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

BRING ME THE FIRST ORDER TEST PILOT GUY

Seriously though, that's by far the worst list in that cut, and that makes him the most interesting player in that cut.

If you know this guy (BCP says Mitchel Hurst) please get him to reach out to me.

I want to interview him, but he also won a full set of AA FO cards for having the balls big enough to play that.

I’m sitting right next to him at the Red Robin! He’s seen it, and will be registering soon to talk to you.

53 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its up: https://listfortress.com/tournaments/583

That data is bad ... or at least the lists aren’t assigned to the correct player. Bob Dee is flying Drea Scurrgs not imperial 5s.