4 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Yeah, I'm fine with other people going the full 199/200, but I know I'm taking a bid because I'm a baby when it comes ace flying. The biggest fears I have are Vader and Soontir primarily and the people who fly those ships consistently well. Once again, the bid is there strictly because I'm afraid like a tiny child when it comes to these few match-ups; mostly because it seems like strong, experienced players gravitate to them. Tbh, if everyone wants to play their Anakin at the full 200, I'd be cool as a cucumber.

It's all based on confidence, if you lose confidence if you move first your most likly going to lose but if you are confident in your flying ability and making the most of blocking then you can do just as well as those with bids.

14 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

It's all based on confidence, if you lose confidence if you move first your most likly going to lose but if you are confident in your flying ability and making the most of blocking then you can do just as well as those with bids.

You can be confident and wrong.

2 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

You can be confident and wrong.

Expand?

Are you saying I am wrong because I don't want to do the bidding war and am confident in my ability?

Yeah, so the reason I don’t get caught up in he whole bid element is the binary end state, either you win he bid or you do not. If I take a 10 point bid, and you an 11, I would be better served by having those 10 points spent on my list. So instead I spend typically 198-199. On an I6 I do tend to leave 1-2 points unspent, but going above 4 is nearly unheard of for me.

And I accept that in a mirror initiative I may just move first. And I’ve found that is fine for me. And when you fly a lot of I4 you get good at flying pricey ships that move first!

The key is identifying your win condition. Example: 83 point Mace, Wolffe with Cody and sync. Targeting, Saeese with Sense R4 and CLT. I’m at like 197/8 points (maybe 199 even).

My opponent had 2 gold squad Torrents, Wolffe with Cody, and 7b Anakin with a 7 point bid. So all my ships place and move before anything other than his torrents. So I have to identify a win condition. In this case: have Mace alive. He is the most expensive ship on the board, narrowly.

So he sets his torrents on the left (to me) corner. I set Mace in my left corner, facing 45°. Saeese and Wolffe close in at the center. He sets his Wolffe next to the torrents and his Anakin in the right corner at 45°.

so what is the plan? Well obviously I can’t feed Mace at Anakin, that’s my win condition. I kill Anakin and keep Mace alive and my victory is nearly certain. If I send Mace at the Torrents, then the Arc and two torrents are 3-1 on him. Maybe I win that, but maybe not. So I Supernatural boost and 5 straight down my board edge, looking like I will send all three ships hard at Anakin. Send Wolffe and Saees so that I can bracket Anakin if he does anything but run hard along his board edge.

he 3 banks. I use Wolffe on the inside, and Saeese on the outside edge to create a pinser move. Mace faked towards Anakin then turns in through the rocks at the torrents. The arc is now facing broadly towards mine, and can’t turn in towards Mace without going over obstacles and bumping his own ships.

As you can see the plan was try and draw his ships out of position so Mace could get advantage. The objective is have him rip apart the Torrent and Arcs from behind while my other two ships pinned Anakin and try and push through damage, selling out to target him. I figure if I trade one of them for his Anakin, it’s a trade I can be happy with. And it’s ultimatley what happened. I used Saeese to enable blocks, and my Wolffe to prevent his from fully engaging. He killed Saeese, but that same turn I had Wolffe and Mace ready to finish him off, and they did.

It was all about identifying my win condition, and in his case lose condition (allow his Anakin to go after Mace unmolested), and playing to that. And that win condition can change depending on who has initiative. If it is Anakin on Anakin, your win condition almost certainly involves keeping your big gun away from theirs. If, however, you are second player your goal is force the Anakin off (the high ground).

Moving last is powerful, but it is not all powerful. And once you embrace moving first you can spend the full 200. And once you do that you may just find that droid you had to cut for a bid provides a critical boost.

10 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Expand?

Are you saying I am wrong because I don't want to do the bidding war and am confident in my ability? 

I think being confident follows making good choices and not the other way around. With two equally skilled Ace players, all else held equal, the one moving last has the advantage*.

Necessary exception for initiative hedges like Nien, juke, etc.

34 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I think being confident follows making good choices and not the other way around. With two equally skilled Ace players, all else held equal, the one moving last has the advantage*.

Necessary exception for initiative hedges like Nien, juke, etc.

You are right in saying if everything else is equal (eg. Player skill) then the player moving last is at a advantage.

My point is everything isn't equal. If my list goes to 200 points but I fit 3 Delta's in (BTW i have not flown this and I do not know if this is a "good" list but rather am using it as a example) which ,for this example we will assume, is *good* then my list at 200 can beat your list at <200.

The question in reality is how many points is it worth to move last? But not just that if a list lands on exactly 200 (eg 3 delta) are you willing to trade down from a 7B Lumi to a Wolfe to move last in around half of your games that you will play against a I6.

One point I will make however is Mace and Luminara are both I4 and the quad phantoms can choose to run 1 without crack shot which would hurt them if they were to move before them.

Where's muh episode 19?

2 hours ago, Polda said:

Where's muh episode 19?

Ikr, they are deep into try hard content in this thread, but I just want incoherent anime rambling as content.

20 hours ago, arctic_rogue said:

Wouldn't Ani want a bid?

Not necessarily. Real easy to clear stress when there’s one enemy ship that doesn’t move before you.

No content allowed @svelok, only chungusposting

But actually, so we don't get moved to off-topic again, what does everyone think is the best ace+swarm list? Maul+Vultures? Vader+Howl/Iden/TIEs? Kylo+SFs? Obi+ARCs? I haven't tried any of them but I'm very intrigued by the last one. ARCs are good at making things go poof in the opening and then Obi seems good at running away and living until a favorable endgame

7 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

But actually, so we don't get moved to off-topic again, what does everyone think is the best ace+swarm list?

does vader + 3 phantoms count?

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

does vader + 3 phantoms count?

I guess three is a swarm, yeah. That makes the answer pretty easy doesn't it?

Let's rephrase, best ace+swarm list in hyperspace

19 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

best ace+swarm list?

This is probably the most interesting question related to list building that is possible to ask.

Does Ace + Mini include Ace+ 3 or 4 or 5?

19 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Obi+ARCs? I haven't tried any of them but I'm very intrigued by the last one. ARCs are good at making things go poof in the opening and then Obi seems good at running away and living until a favorable endgame

I really like Mace+ARCs on that last one, even with the sadness of I4 vs I5. Lets you fully deck out your Aethersprite with Afterburners and R4-P17 and also have extra force regen.

25 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I guess three is a swarm, yeah. That makes the answer pretty easy doesn't it?

Let's rephrase, best ace+swarm list in hyperspace

Listing them out first then thinking from there:

Vader + TIE Fighters/Strikers/Bombers

Soontir + TIE Fighters/Strikers/Bombers

Poe + RZ2s

Fenn + Zealous Recruits

Maul + Vultures

...is there anything else anyone would like to add to the candidates or oppose to the ones listed?

I’d add 7b Jedi of choice and Arc’s. All but Anakin can fit with 3

Soontir and Strikers

11 minutes ago, RStan said:

Listing them out first then thinking from there:

Vader + TIE Fighters

Soontir + Barrage Bombers

Poe + RZ2s

Fenn + Zealous Recruits

Maul + Vultures

...is there anything else anyone would like to add to the candidates or oppose to the ones listed?

Ok this is awesome....

Poe + Lulo + Talli + A/Bastian
Fenn + ZZZ
Soontir + Howl/Iden 4 or Bombers or Strikers
Vader + Howl/Iden 4 or Bombers or Strikers
Kylo + BD + Scorch + Longshot
Obi + 5 Torrents
Ani + Arc + Arc + Torrent
Obi + Arc + Arc + Arc
Luke + 3 As

I think my favorite is Kylo BD/Scorch/Longshot.

12 minutes ago, RStan said:

Listing them out first then thinking from there:

Vader + TIE Fighters/Strikers/Bombers

Soontir + TIE Fighters/Strikers/Bombers

Poe + RZ2s

Fenn + Zealous Recruits

Maul + Vultures

...is there anything else anyone would like to add to the candidates or oppose to the ones listed?

Added:

7B Jedi (except Anakin, likely Obi or Mace) + 3 ARCs

7B Jedi (same as above) + 5 Torrents

Kylo + Named Cheap FOs/SFs that can get 3 dice

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Luke + 3 As 

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Poe + Lulo + Talli + A/Bastian

Aww, that’s just cruel.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is probably the most interesting question related to list building that is possible to ask.

Anakin Skywalker (60)
R4-P17 (5)
Delta-7B (18)
Afterburners (6)

104th Battalion Pilot (42)

104th Battalion Pilot (42)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

IMO

Fenn or Guri + a bunch of Mining Guild TIEs or Zs.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Anakin Skywalker (60)
R4-P17 (5)
Delta-7B (18)
Afterburners (6)

104th Battalion Pilot (42)

104th Battalion Pilot (42)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

IMO

Luke + 3 X/Y/U