I’m thinking @GreenDragoon, or actually theorizing (with a pint), that if the Imps had their Juke Phantoms nerfed, they would be at Scum level of cut... just by my observations of playing against them and looking over the tourneys....

6 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I’m thinking @GreenDragoon, or actually theorizing (with a pint), that if the Imps had their Juke Phantoms nerfed, they would be at Scum level of cut... just by my observations of playing against them and looking over the tourneys....

Just fly more Rexler. He's the point fortress and tanky version of Whisper. Heck, only 5 Rexlers were at Adepticon IIRC, 2 of us went 4-2, and one made the cut (congrats, Matt Erbe!). When Phantoms are bumped 3pt across the board in July, defenders will drop yet another 2 pts (although they didn't need last pt. drop aside from countering the Juke hike). That'll likely be only a 1pt. net difference from fielding Rex + Whisper now and then.

10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I’m thinking @GreenDragoon, or actually theorizing (with a pint), that if the Imps had their Juke Phantoms nerfed, they would be at Scum level of cut... just by my observations of playing against them and looking over the tourneys....

If we take the adepticon snapshot, yes.

But an increase of say 2pts for Imdaars wouldn't affect all the good Whisper lists.

On top, there is more to explore. I mean, someone got a Rexler into the cut, so imperials - as scum - has tools. Players just seem to be quite stubborn on which on to use.

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

If we take the adepticon snapshot, yes.

But an increase of say 2pts for Imdaars wouldn't affect all the good Whisper lists.

On top, there is more to explore. I mean, someone got a Rexler into the cut, so imperials - as scum - has tools. Players just seem to be quite stubborn on which on to use.

They're stubbornly using the best list if their highest priority is winking games, which means quad Phantoms. Other ships are solid, but not the best as of right now, so they don't see that much play.

46 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Just fly more Rexler. He's the point fortress and tanky version of Whisper. Heck, only 5 Rexlers were at Adepticon IIRC, 2 of us went 4-2, and one made the cut (congrats, Matt Erbe!). When Phantoms are bumped 3pt across the board in July, defenders will drop yet another 2 pts (although they didn't need last pt. drop aside from countering the Juke hike). That'll likely be only a 1pt. net difference from fielding Rex + Whisper now and then.

Well played, props mate!

44 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

If we take the adepticon snapshot, yes.

But an increase of say 2pts for Imdaars wouldn't affect all the good Whisper lists.

On top, there is more to explore. I mean, someone got a Rexler into the cut, so imperials - as scum - has tools. Players just seem to be quite stubborn on which on to use.

And if Lea, veteran gunner and RZ2A-Wings get corrected a bit, I see more oprotunities for other ships.

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

They're stubbornly using the best list if their highest priority is winking games, which means quad Phantoms. Other ships are solid, but not the best as of right now, so they don't see that much play.

There are those net-listers to be sure; and Juke on that chassis is a nice blend.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

They're stubbornly using the best list if their highest priority is winking games, which means quad Phantoms. Other ships are solid, but not the best as of right now, so they don't see that much play.

And, as I mentioned a couple pages ago, would also like to not have to face the quad phantom lists....

So I'm thinking aethersprites= su37 but I'm not married to the metaphor. No idea where bellbulabs fit in

3 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

So I'm thinking aethersprites= su37 but I'm not married to the metaphor. No idea where bellbulabs fit in

Jedi

Ironically requred a robot to fly

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

If we take the adepticon snapshot, yes.

But an increase of say 2pts for Imdaars wouldn't affect all the good Whisper lists.

On top, there is more to explore. I mean, someone got a Rexler into the cut, so imperials - as scum - has tools. Players just seem to be quite stubborn on which on to use.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

They're stubbornly using the best list if their highest priority is winking games, which means quad Phantoms. Other ships are solid, but not the best as of right now, so they don't see that much play.

its almost as if good players are just picking the obvious best list in extended so the other lists are doing bad because no one of merit is trying. Sorry, I meant Imperials are unplayable and I won't believe they're good until @Tlfj200 goes on mynocks AND does well at krayt cup to prove me wrong.

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

They're stubbornly using the best list if their highest priority is winking games, which means quad Phantoms. Other ships are solid, but not the best as of right now, so they don't see that much play.

Sure. I'm just thinking that the difference between the obviously best list of quad phantoms and good alternatives is maybe not as big as the hivemind believes.

Yes, list building plays a larger role in extended. But the hyperspace trials (and the rest of adepticon!) show us that we can all do a bit more what we want and still make cut or do well.

Only image: The numbers on the bars are the % of the whole field, not just the faction. E.g., one in five lists had a T65. One in six lists had a TIE phantom. One in eight list had a T70 or RZ2Awing.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Phantom nerfs: deserved? Definitely wanted by the community.

T-65 nerfs: deserved? Definitely not wanted by the community. (Imagine the forums after a Wedge nerf.)

RZ-2/T-70 nerfs: deserved? I'm pretty sure wanted by the community.

Food for thought.

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

Phantom nerfs: deserved? Definitely wanted by the community.

T-65 nerfs: deserved? Definitely not wanted by the community. (Imagine the forums after a Wedge nerf.)

RZ-2/T-70 nerfs: deserved? I'm pretty sure wanted by the community.

Food for thought.

There is much truth here... regardless the tea.

If nerfs were objective based on statistics, there would be yells of horror.

If nerfs were subjective based on forums, there would be yells of horror.

...but hey, it keeps the players warm.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Phantom nerfs: deserved? Definitely wanted by the community.

T-65 nerfs: deserved? Definitely not wanted by the community. (Imagine the forums after a Wedge nerf.)

RZ-2/T-70 nerfs: deserved? I'm pretty sure wanted by the community.

Food for thought.

I tend to think the community has a decent pulse on the strength of those ships, actually (though I’m not seeing concern about the T-70 overall). It’s not like people have always held the T-65 untouchable. Biggs, Fairship, and then 5X all generated some ire.

The problem with the basic analysis of the three different factions above, and why people aren’t clamoring about the Xwing, is that Rebels are supported by Leia. Turning all T-65/Rebel options in Ello Asty a couple times a game, it turns out, is really good.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Phantom nerfs: deserved? Definitely wanted by the community.

T-65 nerfs: deserved? Definitely not wanted by the community. (Imagine the forums after a Wedge nerf.)

RZ-2/T-70 nerfs: deserved? I'm pretty sure wanted by the community. 

Food for thought.

They all have different justifications though. That's the problem of data: it requires context

T70 and RZ2 have no alternative, phantoms have plenty. Still, some limited action is necessary.

T65 is not actually* good by itself.

edit: * not actually too good for the cost

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

They all have different justifications though. That's the problem of data: it requires context

T70 and RZ2 have no alternative, phantoms have plenty. Still, some limited action is necessary.

T65 is not actually good by itself.

Which T65s do you mean?

Just now, Biophysical said:

Which T65s do you mean?

That's the thing: the comment I replied to didn't distinguish either.

When I say 'T65 is not actually good' I base that on the fact that we barely see pure or majority t65 lists. It appears that they are good fillers and additions, and we all know about Biggs and (in a phantom meta) Wedge being very valuable.

What I should have said though: 'T65 is not actually too good to be problematic in any way'

And that is likely true for the individual pilots as well

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's the thing: the comment I replied to didn't distinguish either.

When I say 'T65 is not actually good' I base that on the fact that we barely see pure or majority t65 lists. It appears that they are good fillers and additions, and we all know about Biggs and (in a phantom meta) Wedge being very valuable.

What I should have said though: 'T65 is not actually too good to be problematic in any way'

And that is likely true for the individual pilots as well

Agreed. T65 is good because it is a good piece in a Rebel list that hits critical mass with Leia. It has multiple red options, so hard to block the turn arounds, can hit hard with 3 reds and with some damage spreading can be resilient. If there is a ship that I think the designers got perfectly right and should never get an adjustment, it is the T65.

24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's the thing: the comment I replied to didn't distinguish either.

When I say 'T65 is not actually good' I base that on the fact that we barely see pure or majority t65 lists. It appears that they are good fillers and additions, and we all know about Biggs and (in a phantom meta) Wedge being very valuable.

What I should have said though: 'T65 is not actually too good to be problematic in any way'

And that is likely true for the individual pilots as well

Makes sense.

Hyperspace Ramble:

• Quad I5
  • Take down Lulo first but dont trade a ship in the process?
  • Don't volunteer for K / Talon Range from Nien Nunb
  • Nien flys over Debri Fields for fun sometimes
  • Nien links into stress that clears into actions
  • Don't forget that Ello drops sick Talons
• YYYYY
  • Stay at Range 3
  • Disengage instead of chilling in double taps
  • Know if you can 1 round a Y-Wing
  • Play to Time Probably
  • Just be a force user and ignore 2 dice attacks.
  • Force to break formation ( Rocks or Blocks )
• Howl/Iden
  • Engage from multiple angles
  • Force to break formation ( Rocks or Blocks )
  • Bring Big Rocks and dont place rocks bad
  • Get Howl, force Iden Charge Use early
  • Play to Time Probably
• Poe/Lulo/Talli/Bastian
  • Get Poe & Lulo as soon as possible
  • Poe will Slam and you will feel dumb
• Wedge/Biggs/Y/U & other 4 Ship Reb Variations
  • With Biggs will be in Formation so attack from multiple angles
  • Force to break formation ( Rocks or Blocks )
  • Without Biggs it "might" be out of formation. Get high init things first.
  • Plan for the Leia Turn ( don't have to block the K-Turn, can arc dodge it )
  • Approach from angles that make K-Turns and Talons less useful
• Rebel Han + 2 Aces
  • Get Han but dont follow the Kite into the Rocks
  • Mostly just a game
• Vennie/Bastian/Lulo
  • Get Lulo first, Bastian 2nd
  • Ignore Vennie, stay in his side arcs ( 2 dice only ) no double tap
  • 3 Dice shots will do damage to Vennie
  • Remember that Paige is stupid
• Vader/Soontir/Vermiel/Tie or other 4 Ship Imp Variations
  • Make Vermiel deal with Rocks.
  • Remember Vermiel can and will sloop
  • Vader is going to do damage, keep up.
  • Get your Aces to the end game.
  • Avoid the mini-box.
• Barrage Bomber stuff
  • uh....be Range 1 its fine
  • Get Jonus
  • Punish Box Formations
• AAAAA
  • Play to Time Probably
  • Get Lulo and Talli first but don't chase the Kite
  • Keep the pressure on things without shields
  • Set the first engage so you and or rocks are in the way of the 5 straight boost after.
  • The box will exist for 2 consecutive rounds.
  • Just be a force user and mostly ignore 2 dice attacks.
• Tavson+
  • Don't shoot Tavson unless you have to.
  • Stay out of his Arc and force out of engagements
• Fenn + 3 Zealous
  • Init Kill things from Range 2-3
  • Don't be Range 1
  • Force a disengage or hold out early. Block that Ace.
• Jedi
  • Not really sure...
  • Don't let them get Range 1 TL 3 Force Alpha Strikes
  • Keep Pressure on and engage from Range 2.
  • Blocks kinda help but meh
  • They will K-Turn because they can.
  • Don't have 3 Turns so they tend to use Bank Boosts more often.
  • 1 Hard turn Barrel Roll is gud, block it
• Separatists
  • I have no idea...
  • Destroy some Vultures I guess
  • Don't opt into Maul Double Taps or Dooku Greivous Crew Traps
  • Probably wants to play to time.

22 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Agreed. T65 is good because it is a good piece in a Rebel list that hits critical mass with Leia. It has multiple red options, so hard to block the turn arounds, can hit hard with 3 reds and with some damage spreading can be resilient. If there is a ship that I think the designers got perfectly right and should never get an adjustment, it is the T65.

Yeah, Wedge is as good as other Faction's aces as the stats illuminate and if they don't get a bump, he shouldn't either. The the T-65 seems fine points wise. Now Lea (though I like her style), is the issue that needs adjusting. She's simply 'wicked good' (as a friend from bean-town used to say) for a measly two points, and makes all other crew, regardless the faction, seem comparatively quite overpriced.

10 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Jedi

Ironically requred a robot to fly

VETO f117 is not a fighter, get that out of here. Though it might be a good bellbulab niw that I think of it

f-117 is not a plane - it is a geometry problem with wings!

7 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yeah, Wedge is as good as other Faction's aces as the stats illuminate and if they don't get a bump, he shouldn't either. The the T-65 seems fine points wise. Now Lea (though I like her style), is the issue that needs adjusting. She's simply 'wicked good' (as a friend from bean-town used to say) for a measly two points, and makes all other crew, regardless the faction, seem comparatively quite overpriced.

Leia for 4-6 points is my guess on the adjustment. Leia does have a bit of a carrier tax in that it forces you to play certain ships, though she does make U-Wings extra fun.

Leia should be almost 6.

Considering r4 is 2 points a crew that allow you to k turn all your ships without stressing and doing action cant be e 2 too.

So i think leia should be almost 6, better if 7