5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Flying 4 health ships, being completely safe in case of accidental clipping is actually really feelsgoodman

Iv had the exact opposite experience.

I find that at least once usually twice per game now I or my opponent just fly over obstacles to get good position and leverage coordinate or passive mods to make the lost action not matter.

Its really uninteresting.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its really uninteresting.

My thoughts exactly - it reduces the threat of obstacles. And thematically, it doesn't make much sense. If you are being attacked though a gas cloud, I would think it would risk igniting and doing more damage than protecting you. Maybe it should add a red die instead of a green. That would at least change how you play.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Dumb and good?

I only had them in one game and it went ok. Losing the action is still a bit bad, but I might reverse my initial opinion. Flying 4 health ships, being completely safe in case of accidental clipping is actually really feelsgoodman

You're not really losing an action as much as you are losing the "choice" of an action since most of the time (if you do it right) that means you're getting an evade, and maybe even multiple evades, from the protection of the cloud.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Iv had the exact opposite experience.

I find that at least once usually twice per game now I or my opponent just fly over obstacles to get good position and leverage coordinate or passive mods to make the lost action not matter.

Its really uninteresting.

With what ships?

And let me specify, I don't mind as much when my opponent brings them. I won't, but it is ok to have 3 on the board.

But having played just once with them, I still couldn't get past the habit of avoiding them like the pest. I suspect that I'm not the only player with that instincts. Once they are correctly removed, gas clouds will equal no obstacles except for the added defense.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

With what ships?

And let me specify, I don't mind as much when my opponent brings them. I won't, but it is ok to have 3 on the board.

But having played just once with them, I still couldn't get past the habit of avoiding them like the pest. I suspect that I'm not the only player with that instincts. Once they are correctly removed, gas clouds will equal no obstacles except for the added defense.

My thing with it is that I know Asteroids are still good and best to bring in many cases. I still do bring big rocks.

The thing is that doesnt change my opinion on Gas Clouds not adding anything interesting mechanically to gameplay.

They are the new "small" rock default choice which means they are going to get used in very large numbers.

Flying over obstacles or Turn Zero not really mattering as much as it did is kinda just a part of the game now.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

My thing with it is that I know Asteroids are still good and best to bring in many cases. I still do bring big rocks.

The thing is that doesnt change my opinion on Gas Clouds not adding anything interesting mechanically to gameplay.

They are the new "small" rock default choice which means they are going to get used in very large numbers.

Flying over obstacles or Turn Zero not really mattering as much as it did is kinda just a part of the game now.

I agree (hence the "equal no obstacles") but I just don't see it as a crisis or anything as grave. They make that part of the game slightly less interesting in some games, and only if your rocks are placed in a way that will not include them during the game. I can still force to place two of them and that still helps me a lot.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree (hence the "equal no obstacles") but I just don't see it as a crisis or anything as grave. They make that part of the game slightly less interesting in some games, and only if your rocks are placed in a way that will not include them during the game. I can still force to place two of them and that still helps me a lot.

Thats fair.

26 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

With what ships?

And let me specify, I don't mind as much when my opponent brings them. I won't, but it is ok to have 3 on the board.

But having played just once with them, I still couldn't get past the habit of avoiding them like the pest. I suspect that I'm not the only player with that instincts. Once they are correctly removed, gas clouds will equal no obstacles except for the added defense.

Kanan Crew on Han doesn’t give a **** about debris.

I've only played 2 games with them but holy crap are they dumb. It's not just 1.0 autothrusters, it's 1.0 autothrusters + unbreakable stealth device. You don't lose your action, you gain a 1.0 reinforce action. I don't see how most lists can afford to risk bringing them.

8 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Kanan Crew on Han doesn’t give a **** about debris.

Which is fine because you pay for that ability, it's on one ship, and Han wasn't going to joust you anyways

3 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I've only played 2 games with them but holy crap are they dumb. It's not just 1.0 autothrusters, it's 1.0 autothrusters + unbreakable stealth device. You don't lose your action, you gain a 1.0 reinforce action. I don't see how most lists can afford to risk bringing them.

...or risk not bringing them, depending on your squad?

5 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I've only played 2 games with them but holy crap are they dumb. It's not just 1.0 autothrusters, it's 1.0 autothrusters + unbreakable stealth device. You don't lose your action, you gain a 1.0 reinforce action. I don't see how most lists can afford to risk bringing them.

That's a great point! Maybe they add something interesting after all - we all agree they benefit ships in general. But one squad will benefit more, and one player would be more wrong to bring them.

Here's one possibility: good players can't afford to bring them (unless TIE swarm) because the opponent will benefit more. But they will have to learn how to best use the three clouds on the table.

4 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

...or risk not bringing them, depending on your squad?

Fair enough, but I think you have to be *very* confident you have the top dog list to exploit them if you're bringing them.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Hey so have people had enough games to agree that Gas Clouds are really dumb?

They're pretty dumb. I'd be interested in getting some insight into why they were developed and introduced in the form they've got. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around what the thinking could be.

Maybe a playtester podcaster could -- you know, *wink*wink* -- "speculate."

19 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Which is fine because you pay for that ability, it's on one ship, and Han wasn't going to joust you anyways

Yeah, loss of the force ability and your maneuver is still limited, even if it is just a bit.

19 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

What graphs and stats are you all talking about?

Same stuff we published for the wave 1 meta, with all of the tournaments post points/releases in there. It's not really ready for public consumption, and putting it out now in it's entirety (especially in hyperspace) would probably do more harm than good, imo.

On gas clouds, I still don't know. I've only been able to get a couple of wave 3 games in (2x arcs, v19, afterburners r4p17 7B anakin) and in both of them they were interesting. It makes it significantly easier to entirely disengage with a ship, and in the case of rear arcs you can do some cool stuff where half your rear arc is on it and half isn't, so with good angles you're getting unobstructed shots vs your opponent's obstructed shots.

53 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Fair enough, but I think you have to be *very* confident you have the top dog list to exploit them if you're bringing them.

Imagine, if you will, a squad that is fairly fragile but could potentially set up K-turns or other red repositioning locations on which they could turn their ship and gain actual protection while doing so without worrying about an actual down side?

...is that confidence?

The thing about Gas Clouds that bugs me is that they go against one of the supposed key philosophies in design for second edition, the emphasis and value on executing maneuvers.

19 minutes ago, AlexW said:

The thing about Gas Clouds that bugs me is that they go against one of the supposed key philosophies in design for second edition, the emphasis and value on executing maneuvers.

I disagree. Just because the effect of hitting them is smaller doesn't make them value maneuvers less - if anything, angles and such matter more now because it's incredibly important your shots be unobstructed.

Taking obstructed through gas cloud shots is nearly the same thing as landing on a rock and not taking damage from it.

39 minutes ago, AlexW said:

The thing about Gas Clouds that bugs me is that they go against one of the supposed key philosophies in design for second edition, the emphasis and value on executing maneuvers.

Devil's advocate: (if we assume we are all good at this game, I'll go out on the mental and egotistical limb here, haha) aren't Gas Clouds then, if conceived and viewed by a player as their squad's asset, just as tactical to deal with in surgical flying while using them? I agree they live in sharp contrast to simply avoiding them or using them to create lanes or no-go board areas as we historically did with asteroids.

edited: "@Brunas said it first, and better"

24 minutes ago, AlexW said:

The thing about Gas Clouds that bugs me is that they go against one of the supposed key philosophies in design for second edition, the emphasis and value on executing maneuvers.

My bigger concern is based in the same point. There are ships, upgrades and pilot abilities that straight up ignore the threat of gas clouds under their current rules. Advanced Sensors, Pattern Analyzer, R4-P17, Force Users, Fine Tune Controls, Supernatural Reflexes, etc. are all examples that give ships actions and/or mods even if they move through it because they're things that take place outside or don't require performing actions in the "perform action step" that is skipped from moving through gas clouds.

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I disagree. Just because the effect of hitting them is smaller doesn't make them value maneuvers less - if anything, angles and such matter more now because it's incredibly important your shots be unobstructed.

Taking obstructed through gas cloud shots is nearly the same thing as landing on a rock and not taking damage from it.

I tend to think that's the long way around the argument and puts the onus or "burden of execution," as used to be said, in the wrong place -- the same way opponents playing against Kanaan Fenn had far more critical decisions to make. (I'm referring here, not to to the player that brings them but the player that uses them to their advantage on a particular turn).

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

My bigger concern is based in the same point. There are ships, upgrades and pilot abilities that straight up ignore the threat of gas clouds under their current rules. Advanced Sensors, Pattern Analyzer, R4-P17, Force Users, Fine Tune Controls, Supernatural Reflexes, etc. are all examples that give ships actions and/or mods even if they move through it because they're things that take place outside or don't require performing actions in the "perform action step" that is skipped from moving through gas clouds.

Yeah, that is a step further and it's the same issue that cropped up with Dash and Debris clouds.

13 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I tend to think that's the long way around the argument and puts the onus or "burden of execution," as used to be said, in the wrong place -- the same way playing against Kanaan Fenn made their opponent's decisions far more critical. (I'm referring here, not to to the player that brings them but the player that uses them to their advantage on a particular turn).

But isn't that maybe a good thing? I'm not yet sure myself. If one player can use the terrain more to his advantage, then he should get the advantage.

The only problem I see is based in the list building. I just doubt that its impact is so much larger that it becomes a problem.

17 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Yeah, that is a step further and it's the same issue that cropped up with Dash and Debris clouds.

...but is it really?

I don't have gas, err clouds of gas, so I haven't fielded not played with them on the mat. My investigation and comments are purely theoretical. But isn't this just another option? Strategy? ...that could be useful or backfire?

Dare I say it.......... fun?

edit: Again, I'm slow on the "submit" and @GreenDragoon said it first and better.