The Prequel Factions bring out the best in this community.

Thanks George.

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

The Prequel Factions bring out the best in this community.

Thanks George.

I wonder how much of the prequels can be told using only gifs...

15 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

Unfortunately a lot of people don't fill out the dang list fortress. Where my Iowa hyperspace trial at? Where my adepticon qualifier at? Where half the day in all these 40-60 trials at?!

We decided against scraping the adepticon qualifier, as the win records aren't very useful. The only useful bit in info you can get from them is who went undefeated, and everything else is noise

14 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That was inevitable. "Good" fortressing -- what you and others defined as the only viable answer to certain types of lists and types of play -- had apparent tactical value.

Thus fortressing was normalized. Certain types of gamers being a certain type of gamer, they quick-hardened their arguments in favor of allowing it, fallaciously seizing upon the idea that only the strict definition of fortressing was objectionable. Going so far as to figure out exactly how close one could get to fortressing without "breaking the rules." People like Dee Yun (and myself, but whatever) were ridiculed for pointing out that obviously FFG did not want fortressing in the game, so TOs should use their discretion to discourage it, even beyond the strict mention of it in the rules.

So now, given that fortressing has tactical value, that it has become normalized, and that so many people have adopted arguments in favor of it ... of course it's being used for situations other than "good" fortressing.

I don't intend this as a smack in the head, @Brunas, because I appreciate both the turnaround and the open acknowledgement of it. (And also because while I have rarely agreed with the way you approach getting bad rules changed in X-Wing, I have always completely understood that you're genuine in your desire to see bad rules changed (or good rules made).) But I also hope that you'll acknowledge your part in what you've seen occurring and work to reverse it -- and should similar things occur in the future, don't make the same mistakes -- using the same tools that you used to normalize it before.

And, FWIW, when some of us first agitated for strong statements against fortressing by the developers of the game, they told us, "We'll address it when it becomes a problem." (Hint: it was always a problem. It just wasn't always a problem on the top tables at tournaments.) And is it easier to address now, or is it harder?

Yeah, I'm in the same camp of incredulous that people won't enforce the current fortressing rules that we DID get - yes they aren't great, but it's very clear what they're meant to prevent.

And yeah - at least as far as I've ever had any success, the only way to get bad rules changed is to force the issue by demonstrating what the bad ruleset allows for - accelerationism! Seize the means of rule writing! At the moment, I'm not sure how much of the fortressing can be attributed to me/us. I don't mean "clearly it isn't our fault", just "we can't really measure that". For example, in a parallel universe, do we still have blatant fortressing on streams? Probably not. Maybe?

The last bit I guess is, we'll figure it out. The whole point of fortressing of course, is to highlight the complete lack of need to engage by whatever side happens to win the tiebreaker. Right now it favors the joustier squad, which makes absolutely no sense (and I don't think is intentional). If we have to deal with a few months of fortressing but end up with an incentive to engage in the long term, is that better or worse? My frustrations with fortressing are still present in the game, and I don't even mean fortressing-not-fortressing with phantoms. There are still squads (TIE Swarms, rebel selfless/biggs nonsense) that can 1/2 straight down the board, refuse to play, trade one turn of shots and have time called where they've lost nothing but you have lost things. To make matters worse, players that are worse at playing these squads are at a huge advantage, because the more time they take to make their easy decisions, the harder the game is on their opponent. If you only get 8 turns against one of these squads (which isn't far out of the norm) you should never really have ever had a chance. That is, of course, the entire reason we did objectives - give players a reason to actually play the game in good faith (even if it means redefining what the game itself is a bit).

The fortressing rules actually did a good job of saying: "It is considered a form of stalling, as it seeks to create and exploit a stalemate." I don't know why it's a leap to so many to conclude that "game starts at stalemate, therefore refusing to engage ever is stalling" is difficult to conclude from that, but it's incredibly frustrating. At Krayt Cup we just said if anything smells like fortressing it's going to be a game loss, and I didn't get any complaints, or even have to be called on it ever (then again, unofficial event). I don't think the pool of players that legitimately wants fortressing in the game is very large - or even exists at all, honestly.

Anyways, totally diverged off topic! Yep, I know I've been encouraging fortressing, like you already said, because I think it's the only way to get the rules changed. If FFG doesn't fix the issue, it's going to suck a lot and I'll feel really bad If they do fix it, then we still subjected everyone to some pain without them getting much of a vote which is questionable at best, but got a better game in the end. #worth?

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

The Prequel Factions bring out the best in this community.

Thanks George.

Thanks

I really want to play the jedi and clone faction. I was in denial until now. Well I almost bought into it on Saturday. But now I really want to.

Fun fact, my first ever forum handle as not even teenage boy was Mace due to Mace Windu. No clue why, but yeah...

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

....pretty much scene for scene....man the power of gif telling for the prequels is strong....

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

All 5 old factions are 'my' factions. The only one I won't jump into will be separatists.

Several people are able to judge point discrepancies independent of their current favorite list and the faction this list happens to be in.

Several (who? People that think like you?)

So....read again what i texted....

I said that that some ships can't simply cost too much if they are not as powerfull as resistant.

One ship can have the best ability in the game but if it is not resistant you wan't put it on the table if the price is too high

So....

The balancing in this case should have done IDEALLY reducing the rest.

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Anyways, totally diverged off topic! Yep, I know I've been encouraging fortressing, like you already said, because I think it's the only way to get the rules changed. If FFG doesn't fix the issue, it's going to suck a lot and I'll feel really bad If they do fix it, then we still subjected everyone to some pain without them getting much of a vote which is questionable at best, but got a better game in the end. #worth?

I know I got Alex's attention at worlds...

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I know I got Alex's attention at worlds...

I like how Mace feels without hesitation that he is above democracy and laws.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

I like how Mace feels without hesitation that he is above democracy and laws.

Whoa! He's trying to subdue him! He could have killed Palpatine easily, but he tries not to, because 'the Senate will decide his fate' and not him. His job is to arrest him.

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

because 'the Senate will decide his fate'

Mace didn't realize Sheev was the Senate, which sealed his own fate...

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Whoa! He's trying to subdue him! He could have killed Palpatine easily, but he tries not to, because 'the Senate will decide his fate' and not him. His job is to arrest him.

Under what context is he arresting him? I genuinely don't remember. My old impression is "I'm arresting you because the Jedi want to."

Just now, Biophysical said:

Under what context is he arresting him? I genuinely don't remember. My old impression is "I'm arresting you because the Jedi want to."

I thought it was 'because sith'?

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Mace didn't realize Sheev was the Senate, which sealed his own fate...

NOT YET!

Windu

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I thought it was 'because sith'?

Right, but from a political perspective, was it just the Jedi saying that, or did they have evidence? Jedi is effectively a religion. Does the Republic have freedom of religion laws? Cpuld the Jedi go around accusing everyone of being Sith, because if you oppose the Jedi, you're clearly a servant of darkness...

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Windu

And now I'm hungry. Thanks a lot...

9 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Right, but from a political perspective, was it just the Jedi saying that, or did they have evidence? Jedi is effectively a religion. Does the Republic have freedom of religion laws? Cpuld the Jedi go around accusing everyone of being Sith, because if you oppose the Jedi, you're clearly a servant of darkness...

They had likely a lot of goodwill, being largely apolitical and guardians of peace*. A modern day analogy of questionable accuracy could be the Queen in the UK. She's apolitical, but if she were to interfere then you know it's serious.

*and the bodyguards of (important) senators. Another analogy could be the FBI or other US intelligence agencies, even though they seem to be more and more political... of course the police activity means they are clearly allowed to. But episode 1+2 show that the Jedi did police activities with mandates from the senate. Maybe UNO troops are another example?

5 minutes ago, sirjorj said:

And now I'm hungry. Thanks a lot...

True Jedi eat at Mcdonalds.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

True Jedi eat at Mcdonalds.

"And don't you forget to finish your filet o' fish!"

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

True Jedi eat at Mcdonalds.

And win free apple pies! ... if your in the UK.

(Don't know if it's the same in the US but Mcdonald's Monopoly is on at the moment in the UK)

1 hour ago, RStan said:

EXCUUUUUUUUSSSEEE ME! He is the Senate, as in the Republic! Sure, he was playing both sides, but the CIS were his pawns to transform the Republic he was seizing power in into the Empire. If you wanted him to be identified as CIS before Republic, then how come he orchestrated the Republic to win, Order 66, and then deactivate the droids/kill all Separatist leaders?

I don't think the system works.