47 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Trick over crack here, if you want to do the traditional phantom engagement delay: You take a lot of obstructed shots.

Right, I think that if Juke gets too expensive, they just switch over to Trick, which, again, plays into their strong suit. Gas clouds kind of negate that advantage, but I think that it just shows how much their kit works with Juke.

2 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

This might even be something we can make an educated guess on though!

Vader 3 Imdaar is a pretty solid list, as we've seen. What Imperial ships currently not seeing play, with a slight (less than 5 point) reduction, could fit into the same points that the Imdaars do? Would those ships be a viable choice to pair with Vader instead of the Imdaars?

Feels strange to quote myself, but here are a couple things I looked at:

If you drop the lowest Interceptor or Striker generic by 2 you can fit 4 of either.

If you drop V1 Inquisitors by 2 you can fit 3 with Homing Missile and Instinctive Aim (not sure this is actually good but it seems fun)

If you drop V1 Barons by 2 you can fit 4 with Crack Shot

If you drop Delta Defenders by 3 (so you can't fit 3 in a list still) you can fly 2 with a naked Vader.

If you drop Nu Squadrons by 4 you can fit 3 with FCS, Advanced SLAM, and Proton Torpedoes with a naked Vader.

The fun part is none of these are currently seeing play right now, and the hard part is whether or not any of these could compete with 3x Imdaar for that spot.

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

hard part is whether or not any of these could compete with 3x Imdaar for that spot.

Can I get Vader + 3 i1 Countdowns?

Pink Brain Matter site is interesting and telling. I'm starting to not believe some of you. Not that I did? But maybe I use too?

...now where's my tea?

13 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Pink Brain Matter site is interesting and telling. I'm starting to not believe some of you. Not that I did? But maybe I use too?

...now where's my tea?

Who is "you"? I haven't had a chance to look through recently.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

Pink Brain Matter site is interesting and telling. I'm starting to not believe some of you. Not that I did? But maybe I use too?

Unfortunately a lot of people don't fill out the dang list fortress. Where my Iowa hyperspace trial at? Where my adepticon qualifier at? Where half the day in all these 40-60 trials at?!

On 3/30/2019 at 11:47 AM, Brunas said:

@Jeff Wilder in the worlds longest turnaround, I agree with you on fortressing. It's become clear (to me) that people are willing to do it outside of their opponents also refusing to play the game.

That was inevitable. "Good" fortressing -- what you and others defined as the only viable answer to certain types of lists and types of play -- had apparent tactical value.

Thus fortressing was normalized. Certain types of gamers being a certain type of gamer, they quick-hardened their arguments in favor of allowing it, fallaciously seizing upon the idea that only the strict definition of fortressing was objectionable. Going so far as to figure out exactly how close one could get to fortressing without "breaking the rules." People like Dee Yun (and myself, but whatever) were ridiculed for pointing out that obviously FFG did not want fortressing in the game, so TOs should use their discretion to discourage it, even beyond the strict mention of it in the rules.

So now, given that fortressing has tactical value, that it has become normalized, and that so many people have adopted arguments in favor of it ... of course it's being used for situations other than "good" fortressing.

I don't intend this as a smack in the head, @Brunas, because I appreciate both the turnaround and the open acknowledgement of it. (And also because while I have rarely agreed with the way you approach getting bad rules changed in X-Wing, I have always completely understood that you're genuine in your desire to see bad rules changed (or good rules made).) But I also hope that you'll acknowledge your part in what you've seen occurring and work to reverse it -- and should similar things occur in the future, don't make the same mistakes -- using the same tools that you used to normalize it before.

And, FWIW, when some of us first agitated for strong statements against fortressing by the developers of the game, they told us, "We'll address it when it becomes a problem." (Hint: it was always a problem. It just wasn't always a problem on the top tables at tournaments.) And is it easier to address now, or is it harder?

So wanted to chime in with my opinion on the phantom problem, It was not asked for but it will be given because I’m bored and waiting at work

I think the main problem is they don’t allow for interesting imperial squad building because they are too good.

why are they too good?

1. Token stacking(defensive),

2. the ability to also use that offensively(Juke)

3.many repositioning options(both pre and post movement)

4.and the ability to fit into 4 ship builds with ease(the magic number of ships for second edition)

then we look at what can we change to remove some of these advantages

we cant do anything about 1(built into the ship) but we can effect juke, in 2 ways, no talent, raise cost...my opinion is you probably do both? Get rid of the talent only on the sigma, keep it on the named, and raise the cost of juke, this way you don’t cost phantoms out of existence but you eliminated the chance to fit into a squad with too many synergies with their abilities(trick shot being another one easy for them to trigger)

it also sets the precedent that if you want to take a talent on a phantom, it’s only on a limited pilot to prevent spamming, so other ships can come for the picture when squad building imperial. Then with the increase of the price with juke can hopefully start seeing a value in the other imperial options out there.

It’s at lease a start, you don’t want to just kill balance by dropping everything in the imperial faction, just handling the bad eggs

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

Who is "you"? I haven't had a chance to look through recently.

You know, “you” 😂

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Unfortunately a lot of people don't fill out the dang list fortress. Where my Iowa hyperspace trial at? Where my adepticon qualifier at? Where half the day in all these 40-60 trials at?!

This would make Pink Brain Matter complete... so let’s get the players inputting their wares and make this the go-to in “this ship needs reduction” vs “this ship needs increase” fun.

....I still don’t think Juke Phantoms are the top of the OMG heap. 😊

1 hour ago, TheOz said:

So wanted to chime in with my opinion on the phantom problem, It was not asked for but it will be given because I’m bored and waiting at work

I think the main problem is they don’t allow for interesting imperial squad building because they are too good.

why are they too good?

1. Token stacking(defensive),

2. the ability to also use that offensively(Juke)

3.many repositioning options(both pre and post movement)

4.and the ability to fit into 4 ship builds with ease(the magic number of ships for second edition)

then we look at what can we change to remove some of these advantages

we cant do anything about 1(built into the ship) but we can effect juke, in 2 ways, no talent, raise cost...my opinion is you probably do both? Get rid of the talent only on the sigma, keep it on the named, and raise the cost of juke, this way you don’t cost phantoms out of existence but you eliminated the chance to fit into a squad with too many synergies with their abilities(trick shot being another one easy for them to trigger)

it also sets the precedent that if you want to take a talent on a phantom, it’s only on a limited pilot to prevent spamming, so other ships can come for the picture when squad building imperial. Then with the increase of the price with juke can hopefully start seeing a value in the other imperial options out there.

It’s at lease a start, you don’t want to just kill balance by dropping everything in the imperial faction, just handling the bad eggs

The token stacking isn't fully stacking since the evade cannot be spent, but there is no "magic number"- the number of ships in your list is not a direct meta response to anything.

Mass phantom is good because they are a(and the only) jousting squad that does not have to move forwards.

This allows the phantoms to put as many rocks as possible in a dense ball in the center and tokyo drift around it, waiting for their opponent to go into the rocks. When the other list goes into the rocks, the phantoms can suddenly spring forward and flank them, while the other ships are unable to effectively turn around.

If the phantoms had Adaptive Ailerons and Comm Relay instead of Stygium, they would be drastically worse, despite getting the ability to do their pre-movement at i4 instead of systems- As now they have to move forwards, and can no longer delay until they are able to take an optimal engage.

a nerf that limits it to 2 jukes (52 for a Juke Sigma) would mean that if you want 3 jukes, the 4th ship cannot be a phantom: it has to be a ship that moves forwards. This prevents them from delaying engages since you could force one by fighting the not-Sigma. Without 3 jukes, the damage output drops considerably. Remember- It is just a T-65 with -1 health and a Comm Relay that forces strange movement- it's not worth it as 60 point ship.

Also, while we are fixing stuff- Can we fix the First Order Test Pilot? They suck *** and should probably be in the 50-something range geared out (with Fanatical and Optics)

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

a nerf that limits it to 2 jukes (52 for a Juke Sigma) would mean that if you want 3 jukes, the 4th ship cannot be a phantom: it has to be a ship that moves forwards. This prevents them from delaying engages since you could force one by fighting the not-Sigma.

give me 3 phantoms and Countdown and you will be amazed at how far Countdown does not move.

On 3/30/2019 at 7:02 PM, svelok said:

"Effective immediately, Sigma Squadron Ace..."

1.) Nothing, they'll wait until July
2.) Loses the talent slot
3.) Goes up to 51 points
4.) Some other fourth thing

My opinion: just make em 48 or 49 points. Four should be playable but probably not this good... Not when 4 t65s with no support ship can't make it.

6 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

Where my Iowa hyperspace trial at?

Not sure, I was told it would be put up. I'll ask the to.

3 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The token stacking isn't fully stacking since the evade cannot be spent, but there is no "magic number"- the number of ships in your list is not a direct meta response to anything.

Mass phantom is good because they are a(and the only) jousting squad that does not have to move forwards.

This allows the phantoms to put as many rocks as possible in a dense ball in the center and tokyo drift around it, waiting for their opponent to go into the rocks. When the other list goes into the rocks, the phantoms can suddenly spring forward and flank them, while the other ships are unable to effectively turn around.

If the phantoms had Adaptive Ailerons and Comm Relay instead of Stygium, they would be drastically worse, despite getting the ability to do their pre-movement at i4 instead of systems- As now they have to move forwards, and can no longer delay until they are able to take an optimal engage.

a nerf that limits it to 2 jukes (52 for a Juke Sigma) would mean that if you want 3 jukes, the 4th ship cannot be a phantom: it has to be a ship that moves forwards. This prevents them from delaying engages since you could force one by fighting the not-Sigma. Without 3 jukes, the damage output drops considerably. Remember- It is just a T-65 with -1 health and a Comm Relay that forces strange movement- it's not worth it as 60 point ship.

Also, while we are fixing stuff- Can we fix the First Order Test Pilot? They suck *** and should probably be in the 50-something range geared out (with Fanatical and Optics)

But if only the named ships had juke it will always limit them to 2 with jukes and they have to pay for it for the named premium, it does everything your saying works out? They would no matter what have to take a third ship which is not a phantom to get another juke

and juke should be expensive because where it’s not abusive it’s kinda bad and where it is efficient it’s really good. So since it’s only list with action efficiency to get focus and evade want to take it, they should be really paying for it, and vice versa I don’t want an ability to pay for juke if it’s interesting without it

4 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Also, while we are fixing stuff- Can we fix the First Order Test Pilot? They suck *** and should probably be in the 50-something range geared out (with Fanatical and Optics)

50 point Fanatical Optics FOTPs when?

For 1 second other faction players can consider that empire ships are fragile?

You can't call the op problem every time.

Empire has already been nerfed enough.

Bomber:nerfed

Punisher:nerfed

Phantom:nerfed

The problem is that you can't go too up with ship's points if it is fragile.

Otherwise no one will use it.

And this is what is happening in empire faction

Playing empire is getting more and more difficult. Ships are too easy to pop.

Can we talk about the 44 points for pure sabaac (ps4 and only 4 hulls) or leia at 2 points?

If you want be more effective against 4 phantom start look at YOUR faction overpriced ships and ask a point reduction for them instead of ruining other factions.

5 hours ago, Kieransi said:

50 point Fanatical Optics FOTPs when?

[gently weeps in Skull Squadron]

13 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Also, while we are fixing stuff- Can we fix the First Order Test Pilot? They suck *** and should probably be in the 50-something range geared out (with Fanatical and Optics)

Ooooooh.... interesting indeed.

9 hours ago, Kieransi said:

50 point Fanatical Optics FOTPs when?

Yeah, I'm thinking that'll never happen as the FO it has but three Silencer Dials. The list would be fun though. But the b!+[hing would easily eclipse the four cries and tears about the Juking Phantoms list; though the four Silencer list probably isn't as good in reality.

7 hours ago, Kieransi said:

50 point Fanatical Optics FOTPs when?

FFG PLS Fix- Make this happen in July (probably 50 flat is too low, but if given the choice between a Juke Phantom or a FAO Test Pilot, independent of cost, you would take the Phantom- 52-56 seems the right range)

1 hour ago, Manolox said:

For 1 second other faction players can consider that empire ships are fragile?

You can't call the op problem every time.

Empire has already been nerfed enough.

Bomber:nerfed

Punisher:nerfed

Phantom:nerfed

The problem is that you can't go too up with ship's points if it is fragile.

Otherwise no one will use it.

And this is what is happening in empire faction

Playing empire is getting more and more difficult. Ships are too easy to pop.

Can we talk about the 44 points for pure sabaac (ps4 and only 4 hulls) or leia at 2 points?

If you want be more effective against 4 phantom start look at YOUR faction overpriced ships and ask a point reduction for them instead of ruining other factions.

You glossed over what is probably the worst ship in the game then- The Black Squadron Scout. Black squadron Scouts just suck so much- More frail than a Z-95, unimportant initiative but at a 4 point premium, 20% of your list. They should honestly cost 32-34, with Sentinels 2 points below them. The named strikers, in comparison, are fine.

1 hour ago, Manolox said:

For 1 second other faction players can consider that empire ships are fragile?

You can't call the op problem every time.

Empire has already been nerfed enough.

Bomber:nerfed

Punisher:nerfed

Phantom:nerfed

The problem is that you can't go too up with ship's points if it is fragile.

Otherwise no one will use it.

And this is what is happening in empire faction

Playing empire is getting more and more difficult. Ships are too easy to pop.

Can we talk about the 44 points for pure sabaac (ps4 and only 4 hulls) or leia at 2 points?

If you want be more effective against 4 phantom start look at YOUR faction overpriced ships and ask a point reduction for them instead of ruining other factions.

Talks about empire ships being fragile.

Lists bomber, punisher, and phantom as examples.

9 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

give me 3 phantoms and Countdown and you will be amazed at how far Countdown does not move.

Is that you, Mr. Prokos? Forgot to congratulate you at Adepticon for your finish!

1 hour ago, Manolox said:

If you want be more effective against 4 phantom start look at YOUR faction overpriced ships and ask a point reduction for them instead of ruining other factions.

All 5 old factions are 'my' factions. The only one I won't jump into will be separatists.

Several people are able to judge point discrepancies independent of their current favorite list and the faction this list happens to be in.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

All 5 old factions are 'my' factions. The only one I won't jump into will be separatists.

Several people are able to judge point discrepancies independent of their current favorite list and the faction this list happens to be in.

Only relatively recently have I discovered that I only have bought into or converted factions that include a small-base force-user, haha.

24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

All 5 old factions are 'my' factions. The only one I won't jump into will be separatists.

Several people are able to judge point discrepancies independent of their current favorite list and the faction this list happens to be in.