35 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Juke is just so bad apart from Phantoms.

I guess there's a marginal theoretical benefit to high init ships who can get both offensive and defensive bonuses out of it, but in general it's really bad. I remember running through the calculator the math for a mini TIE Swarm. The damage was lower but pretty close to the same with Howl + 3x Juke Black as Howl + 4x Academy, but with so much more potential to go wrong--and this is presuming no focus to spend (so Hotshot Gunner was baked in). Fly into a Luke (well, maybe ANY force user), and get completely hosed. Bump your ships, and get completely hosed. Spend your Evade to not-die (on most Juke ships, you'll have the green dice to get use out of defensive focus), and get completely hosed.

So this is why I support Variable pricing on Juke. Not because it's almost good--it isn't it's bad--but because it's too much of a trap. It's too easy to get completely hosed, with very little benefit if you execute perfectly. Juke synergies are cool and fun looking, but really really mathematically bad. So doesn't this mean it's fine to price it absurdly high? No. Because people will still build the lists, and those lists will be even worse. I don't really like the term "Noob Trap" since it's kinda rude and dismissive, but if it applies to any kind of list, it's Juke lists. Variable pricing on Juke would be ideal, despite the awkwardness, because if someone falls for the trick, falls for the Juke-Trap, their list is already bad, but adding 8 point Jukes to that is just too much.

//

My first thoughts towards a variable points cost: 2 points on most things, maybe 5 points on N-1 Naboo Fighters (I'm guessing they don't have a Talent generic) since they only have 2 red dice, and 8 points on Phantoms and Defenders. 3/6/9 would also work, or 3/5/7.

I'd also hope the Sigma stays at 50-Trick Shot Price, since I think flying 4x Sigmas with Trick Shot would be fun, but there's no reason to do so while you can fit in this many Jukes.

So you don't think Juke Soontir is better than Crackshot/Predator/etc?

I was considering running Juke to fly more defensively but I'm curious to hear more.

On another note, local won our HS Trial with Vader, 4 Obsidians, and Wampa:
https://listfortress.com/tournaments/510

7 hours ago, TheOz said:

I hear you and I agree it super helps, white actions are better then red ones, especially on a ship without tons of blue maneuvers, and I’m not discrediting you or anyone taking it because it is useful and good, but if you were picking the most necessary pilots and upgrades...I’m sure you would just not take it if it meant a sacrifice to the key parts of your squad

like would you take tac Officer over leia on a u wing? Or tac Officer over a talent on one of your other ships

This is what I was trying to say, although I did a poor job of it.

assume for a moment, the only change in July is that the U-wing loses a crew slot. Now who do you take? Leia, or Tac officer? Personally I think it depends on how you want to fly it, if you can only take one. I suspect rebel beef will still want Leia, personally I’d rather have tac officer on my generic because I’m using it as a blocker.

although I didn’t quote the rest, I do agree rebels are in a great spot, although I’d argue give it another week and the imperial toolbox may start popping up again.

So I've heard there will be a team USA at ETC, and ffg euros. Do you know who?

3 minutes ago, Amaimon said:

So I've heard there will be a team USA at ETC, and ffg euros. Do you know who?

Send the White Walkers

40 minutes ago, impspy said:

So you don't think Juke Soontir is better than Crackshot/Predator/etc?

Juke Soontir isn't bad, especially in a list with other another juke. But... he's in the same boat as the Phantom/Defender with Juke working on him because he gets the evade "for free". In the sense that you're leveraging the bullseye focus to free up your action to take the evade. And even then at current cost I'm not sure it's worth it. Ignoring points juke is clearly better than crackshot, including them much less so

Would simply bumping the Sigma up to 48 solve anything? 1 copy of Juke is not so great.

I run Echo and Rex, Juke is very handy but it's 10pt in the list and that feels about right.

A Sigma with Juke at 53 is still a good ship but I don't feel like it's obnoxiously priced. 3 of them would then leave 41pt, there's not much you can fit in there that will punch above its weight.

I still feel like Quad Phantoms is more incredibly fashionable, rather than being too, too strong. A little tiny push might do it.

55 minutes ago, impspy said:

So you don't think Juke Soontir is better than Crackshot/Predator/etc?

I was considering running Juke to fly more defensively but I'm curious to hear more.

It was a first thought, not much more.

On stuff like an A-Wing or basic TIE Fighter, 2 seems fine. On something like Soontir (Tallie?), probably more. There's always going to be gaps.

9 hours ago, TheOz said:

I hear you and I agree it super helps, white actions are better then red ones, especially on a ship without tons of blue maneuvers, and I’m not discrediting you or anyone taking it because it is useful and good, but if you were picking the most necessary pilots and upgrades...I’m sure you would just not take it if it meant a sacrifice to the key parts of your squad

like would you take tac Officer over leia on a u wing? Or tac Officer over a talent on one of your other ships

You see my best friend who plays is a rebel loyal player and I have been helping him squad build for several of our local tournaments and I can’t help but just see how many fantastic ways you can build 4 ship rebel right now, and that’s just in hyperspace. It’s like oh you want action efficiency, let’s do u wing with Dutch and Horton and graven or wedge...oh you want more double taps, maybe Dutch Horton and norra with a u wing, oh look you can fit rigged cargo too, how about Biggs and selfless on everything...and this was before b wings!

Just saying it feels like there are way more ways to count to 200 with rebel then any other faction, and see success

and I think that’s the point of what tlfj200 is trying to say, like wow a lot of people take it, even though it’s probably replaceable

Rebels now are like empire pre nerf

Expecially in hyperspace

A juke sigma at 52 is probably fairish.

Only 2 juke, or you need to run something that isn't an i4 Phantom (no decloak dance)

3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I havent looked at the entire Adepticon Hyperspace Qualifier swiss yet but...

Adepticon Qualifier

• 6-0

  • PAAX

  • PAAA

  • Wolffe Sinker Torrent Torrent Torrent ( 2x 7th Gunner )

  • BBUYY

• 5-1

  • Luke Wedge Biggs

  • Howl/Iden Swarm

  • Wat + 7 ESC Vultures

  • 7b Obi + Arc + Arc + Arc

  • Vader + Howl Crack Mini

  • Pava Bastian X X

  • Han Boba L337

  • Biggs Thane Wedge X

  • Kylo Tavson Starkiller

  • AAAAA

  • Greivous Wat VVVV

Interesting to see that no one really gave Tie Bombers or Tie Interceptors a good run.

Also find it funny that Republic Beef and Rebel Beef are both good, and that 7b Jedi are obviously ok.

Separatists may have some options but other factions maybe do what they thematically do about as well or better?

Chaos meta looks good on Hyperspace, even if it somewhat boils down to undercosted high init things (Resistance) still rising to the top.

I don't see this on ListFortress at all, is it somewhere on there?

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I still feel like Quad Phantoms is more incredibly fashionable, rather than being too, too strong. A little tiny push might do it.

This.

I’m pretty sure if Phantoms need a price increase, there’s quite a few ships in front of ‘em if we’re being fair (Ive flown against ‘em, tracked their results, see others just as solid and potent).

15 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I’m pretty sure if Phantoms need a price increase, there’s quite a few ships in front of ‘em if we’re being fair (Ive flown against ‘em, tracked their results, see others just as solid and potent).

Maybe?

But juke Phantoms are incredibly consistent. There are other ships out there that have more upside potential but given the token stacks and multiple jukes downside variance doesn't hurt them nearly as bad as other ships. So in a given match, sure they're beatable. But across an entire day that shift in the variance window really shines through and it's a huge part of why they're placing so well

About the Adepticon Hyperspace Qualifier: fascinating how they are all different. You'd think that the 15 best lists are less diverse. I wonder how variable the rest of the field was.

39 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I’m pretty sure if Phantoms need a price increase, there’s quite a few ships in front of ‘em if we’re being fair (Ive flown against ‘em, tracked their results, see others just as solid and potent). 

I think you should again start drinking whatever was in that "tea"

41 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

I’m pretty sure if Phantoms need a price increase, there’s quite a few ships in front of ‘em if we’re being fair (Ive flown against ‘em, tracked their results, see others just as solid and potent).

This might even be something we can make an educated guess on though!

Vader 3 Imdaar is a pretty solid list, as we've seen. What Imperial ships currently not seeing play, with a slight (less than 5 point) reduction, could fit into the same points that the Imdaars do? Would those ships be a viable choice to pair with Vader instead of the Imdaars?

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

About the Adepticon Hyperspace Qualifier: fascinating how they are all different. You'd think that the 15 best lists are less diverse. I wonder how variable the rest of the field was.

I think you should again start drinking whatever was in that "tea"

I ended that event 5-1 and I never saw a repeat list that I played against.

First round was against a new player who brought 2x stacked Upsilons, but after that it was [Han, Wedge, Luke], [Maul, Wat, 4x Trade Fed (and a very good player playing it)], [Blackout, Kylo, QD], [5A], [Poe, Tali, Lulo, Bastien]. I saw a lot of different lists nearby all day.

8 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

This might even be something we can make an educated guess on though!

Vader 3 Imdaar is a pretty solid list, as we've seen. What Imperial ships currently not seeing play, with a slight (less than 5 point) reduction, could fit into the same points that the Imdaars do? Would those ships be a viable choice to pair with Vader instead of the Imdaars?

One thing worth pointing out, is that "viable choice" is hard to define right now since any consideration in an imperial list also has to take into account that they may be facing phantoms. There's a lot in the imperial arsenal that doesn't want to see three juking phantoms across the table since a feature of many of their ships is a reliance on green dice and focus to protect them. My point being, a limiting of phantoms will also help other things in the Empire become more viable just in how it reshapes the meta.

4 hours ago, impspy said:

So you don't think Juke Soontir is better than Crackshot/Predator/etc?

Juke Soontir is a great enabler for Vermiel, and Vader crew is a great enabler for them both.

In a vacuum, enh.

10 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

Juke Soontir is a great enabler for Vermiel, and Vader crew is a great enabler for them both.

In a vacuum, enh.

Major Vermeil (49)
Juke (5)
Darth Vader (14)

Soontir Fel (52)
Juke (5)

"Countdown" (44)

Gideon Hask (30)

Total: 199

move along officer, nothing to see here

5 minutes ago, AlexW said:

One thing worth pointing out, is that "viable choice" is hard to define right now since any consideration in an imperial list also has to take into account that they may be facing phantoms. There's a lot in the imperial arsenal that doesn't want to see three juking phantoms across the table since a feature of many of their ships is a reliance on green dice and focus to protect them. My point being, a limiting of phantoms will also help other things in the Empire become more viable just in how it reshapes the meta.

I'm 100% on board with essentially removing Juke from the game. I think Whisper/Echo could do fine with Outmaneuver or Trick Shot.

Mostly my point is that I'm not sure any of the actual phantoms are underpriced, or if having four I4 Phantoms, 3 with Juke is overpowered. It'd be worth trying to play 4 of them all with Crack Shot to see if they are still a tournament-viable list.

4 minutes ago, svelok said:

Major Vermeil (49)
Juke (5)
Darth Vader (14)

Soontir Fel (52)
Juke (5)

"Countdown" (44)

Gideon Hask (30)

Total: 199

move along officer, nothing to see here

Idk if juke is right for vermeil, yes he wants to evade but she does have to sloop, pretty easy to get bumped, and every once in a while might make use of coordinate, I’d say it could be crack shot on the 3 other ships, hull upgrade on countdown, bomb on countdown, many ways to flavor that list

16 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm 100% on board with essentially removing Juke from the game. I think Whisper/Echo could do fine with Outmaneuver or Trick Shot.

Mostly my point is that I'm not sure any of the actual phantoms are underpriced, or if having four I4 Phantoms, 3 with Juke is overpowered. It'd be worth trying to play 4 of them all with Crack Shot to see if they are still a tournament-viable list.

Trick over crack here, if you want to do the traditional phantom engagement delay: You take a lot of obstructed shots.

1 minute ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Trick over crack here, if you want to do the traditional phantom engagement delay: You take a lot of obstructed shots.

I've heard that Trick Shot is probably undercosted as well, which lead me to saying crack shot but I agree, Trick Shot is probably a better test of power.

24 minutes ago, TheOz said:

Idk if juke is right for vermeil, yes he wants to evade but she does have to sloop, pretty easy to get bumped, and every once in a while might make use of coordinate, I’d say it could be crack shot on the 3 other ships, hull upgrade on countdown, bomb on countdown, many ways to flavor that list

I've been going Crack on the other 3 ships. pretty good so far. Haven't had to play against the Alderaan Beef Packers yet, so my numbers are probably skewed.

5 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I havent looked at the entire Adepticon Hyperspace Qualifier swiss yet but...

Adepticon Qualifier

• 6-0

  • PAAX

  • PAAA

  • Wolffe Sinker Torrent Torrent Torrent ( 2x 7th Gunner )

  • BBUYY

• 5-1

  • Luke Wedge Biggs

  • Howl/Iden Swarm

  • Wat + 7 ESC Vultures

  • 7b Obi + Arc + Arc + Arc

  • Vader + Howl Crack Mini

  • Pava Bastian X X

  • Han Boba L337

  • Biggs Thane Wedge X

  • Kylo Tavson Starkiller

  • AAAAA

  • Greivous Wat VVVV

Interesting to see that no one really gave Tie Bombers or Tie Interceptors a good run.

Also find it funny that Republic Beef and Rebel Beef are both good, and that 7b Jedi are obviously ok.

Separatists may have some options but other factions maybe do what they thematically do about as well or better?

Chaos meta looks good on Hyperspace, even if it somewhat boils down to undercosted high init things (Resistance) still rising to the top.

Heyo, I was the one flying 7b Obi and 3 ARCs.

One of my wins was a concession but I think I had a favorable matchup, my loss was against a homing torrent swarm that had hot defense on top of good blocking, and another win I had hot dice in the opening exchange.

I still think it's a solid list that I want to mess with more. I hadn't flown it before the event. Doesnt do anything fancy, just hits hard, absorbs damage, and takes up a lot of space on the board.

13 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Doesnt do anything fancy

Congrats on going 5-1!

I tested 7b Obi a few times now and greatly enjoyed it. Your list looks very fun.

Plays alot like Kylo but cheaper and rarely stressed in exchange for 1 less agility.

Would be awesome to be able fit three high hp 3 dice multi arc ships like that with Kylo.

Closest 208 pt FO Equivalent.

FFG, cheaper and more generic SFs and FOs please!!!