27 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Yeah because it's nonsense with whatever its stats are. Are you upset that I'm calling out nonsense in this game? Do you not remember that FFG's power-creep literally broke the last game so bad that they had to design a new one? Are you unable to remember that the combination of OP dial + cheap always on mods + turrets ended up with the game in a sorry state before?

I'm concerned because it feels like we almost will need to start seeing red dice creep to keep up with Rebels "40 health turrets" and Resistance "do everything good x5". When you are repeatedly shooting A-wings, in arc with mods, and they simply do not take damage, while trading back at you and doing damage, it's a callback to the old game that was, once again, so poorly designed in the end that they had to cancel it and start over.

These are my exact sentiments from last week's Hyperspace Trial. But, part of my various opponents' immortal A-wings had to do with my double modded reds at range 1 consistently yielding only 3 or even (and slightly more often) only 2 results. That and I was too cagey in the opening, so that I got my engagement timing off. In fact, I'd say that my poor decisions and my unbelievably weak rolls had far more to do with my losses than the A-wing chassis. But I don't think we need an emergency nerf on account of Wave 3 releasing with all its counters: Dooku forcing a blank (but his card text not triggering heroic), Maul double-tapping, Treachery being able to fiddle with agility stats, Buzzdroids forcing actions or taking damage, Probe droids making jam and lock easier, Commander Cody straining a failed shot from his carrier ship, Palpatine forcing a stress to a ship that shoots him, 7th gunner and Sinker dishing out a cheap double modded 4 die shot, Wolffe having bonuses for days, Anakin poking stress through, and easy access to 3 die spam by both prequel factions due to energy shells and synchronized laser targeting and missiles.

That and A-wings are not taking all the HST's. Sure, they show up well and are taking a few, but we also have among HST champions:

• 4 SF + Scorch
• 2 U + Quickdraw
• 4 TIE + Vader
• 6 TIE Swarm
• 3X + U
• 5Y
• Kylo + Quickdraw + Tavson (People's Champion Reid!)
• 3 T70
• 4 Fangs (the madman!)

I think that if we'd have to complain about faction representation, it would be Scum. And this is coming from someone who thinks the cheap pricing point of RZ-2 is so bull that he is spamming juke at Adepticon to annihilate A-wings even though A-wings don't do so well in extended (it's a personal vendetta to be fulfilled in case someone brings them).

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Hey, any Euro here that know if Eindelghoven used best coast pairings?

If so, then we need someone to share the lists with us ASAP before they disappear behind a paywall

Eindhoven SOS data is in hands of FFG so it's propably lost forever. To get results of Polish SOS published we had to wait like 2 weeks(!) . Forget about lists.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If there's a problem with A-Wing prices, it's probably largely because of trick shot and optics like others (and yourself) have already said combined with the rear arc. I don't know how much of that is trick shot, because people aren't really using still even though they should be.

I'm surprised to see complaints on power creep w.r.t. advanced optics - most people I know don't think it's worth the points. I disagree with them, but I also don't find it power creep.

I'd steer clear of Heroic when trying to argue power creep - Heroic is deep in probably not better than a bid territory. Just because it feels good to use doesn't make it power creep.

EDIT: forgot to add - I agree lulo is pretty clearly undercosted. I'm not sure about the rest.

It's not Advanced Optics itself that is the issue; it's the A-Wing's chassis being so cheap that they can take 5 copies of it and 5 copies of heroic and still have room for multiple named pilots in the list. And heroic has procked multiple times in every single match that I've played against the As, so it's an issue; at least at its 1 pt price point. Rolling all blanks should be "the way she goes" in this game; an unfortunate downside to playing a dice game and taking risks. However with 5x heroic in a list, all it's doing is negating risk. There is no consequence for when your dice blank out in the way that T-65s or Ties just vanish when they blank out.

And I'm not saying that the list is unbeatable; I beat it more often than not with Rebel Alpha Strike. It just feels like the list get's so much more for each of its points than other lists do.

As for how common the list is; it is wholly irrelevant. I never once played against Triple Ups in any of the tournies I went to while it was legal; still doesn't mean that it wasn't unfair nonsense. I don't see how the frequency of a list matters regarding its power level as all it takes it one instance of it showing up to create an imbalance.

12 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

As for how common the list is; it is wholly irrelevant. I never once played against Triple Ups in any of the tournies I went to while it was legal; still doesn't mean that it wasn't unfair nonsense. I don't see how the frequency of a list matters regarding its power level as all it takes it one instance of it showing up to create an imbalance.

Players gravitate to the most broken things and versions of them.

The fact that just 14 out of 599 lists were AAAAA, and only 14 out of 125 players using A-wings, means that massing them is not the most broken version.

And that means that it doesn't help your case when you are focusing on the 5 copies. It doesn't matter that " they can take 5 copies of it and 5 copies of heroic and still have room for multiple named pilots in the list " because they are actually better off not doing that.

8 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

It's not Advanced Optics itself that is the issue; it's the A-Wing's chassis being so cheap that they can take 5 copies of it and 5 copies of heroic and still have room for multiple named pilots in the list. And heroic has procked multiple times in every single match that I've played against the As, so it's an issue; at least at its 1 pt price point. Rolling all blanks should be "the way she goes" in this game; an unfortunate downside to playing a dice game and taking risks. However with 5x heroic in a list, all it's doing is negating risk. There is no consequence for when your dice blank out in the way that T-65s or Ties just vanish when they blank out.

I mean, the unfortunate downside also has to be paired with the high upside of hot red dice by your opponent, making it a further low probability. And Heroic on anyone other than Lulo has a really low chance of happening on 3 green dice. The argument against Heroic definitely seems like more emotion than logic.

8 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

And I'm not saying that the list is unbeatable; I beat it more often than not with Rebel Alpha Strike. It just feels like the list get's so much more for each of its points than other lists do.

If you have a positive win percentage against it, then is it really a problem? Again, this seems like more emotion than logic.

8 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

As for how common the list is; it is wholly irrelevant. I never once played against Triple Ups in any of the tournies I went to while it was legal; still doesn't mean that it wasn't unfair nonsense. I don't see how the frequency of a list matters regarding its power level as all it takes it one instance of it showing up to create an imbalance.

UUU wasn't even so much imbalanced as it was not fun. So far in your posts it seems like the fun part of the game for you is when your opponent blanks out on greens and you get a big hit in there, or when your opponent rolls hit/blank on a 2 die attack and you can ezpz roll out of it with a green.

I think Lulo is underpriced, and maybe Tali as well for the I5 but other than that they are probably fine. Start taking away some of those mitigations and suddenly they become unplayable in a tournament format because they pop on a low percentage shot and offer nothing in return.

Lulo is basically in the same position pre-nerf Attack Shuttle Sabine was. Super cheap, so that it fits into many list styles, and super efficient. I suspect they'll bump him up at next opportunity.

I think you see so many Resistance players because the Resistance ships (especially A-Wings) are just plain fun. Every time I play as or against Resistance, there's usually some cool thing that you talk about after the game, whether it's when Lulo rolled 5 dice with Trick Shot and got to pretend to be Fenn Rau, or some cool Black One thing, or whatever. If people have fun playing it, they'll keep playing it.

2 minutes ago, pheaver said:

Lulo is basically in the same position pre-nerf Attack Shuttle Sabine was. Super cheap, so that it fits into many list styles, and super efficient. I suspect they'll bump him up at next opportunity.

I think you see so many Resistance players because the Resistance ships (especially A-Wings) are just plain fun. Every time I play as or against Resistance, there's usually some cool thing that you talk about after the game, whether it's when Lulo rolled 5 dice with Trick Shot and got to pretend to be Fenn Rau, or some cool Black One thing, or whatever. If people have fun playing it, they'll keep playing it.



Dang it Dad, stop being reasonable! I'm finding a lot of depth to Nien myself and each game I walk away with a new way to get his ability to trigger in some goofy way. When that coordinate pod thing comes out he's going to get *REALLY* interesting.

3 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

. Start taking away some of those mitigations and suddenly they become unplayable in a tournament format because they pop on a low percentage shot and offer nothing in return.

Agreed. Without the price point around where it is, RZ2s can't be put in a list in the same numbers/configurations, which would directly impact the competitive nature of the faction. They're good, I get it, but they need to be. The Resistance Falcon isn't good, total outlier ship and the bombers are in the same boat, relying largely on being in a "gotcha" list.

7 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I think you see so many Resistance players because the Resistance ships (especially A-Wings) are just plain fun. Every time I play as or against Resistance, there's usually some cool thing that you talk about after the game, whether it's when Lulo rolled 5 dice with Trick Shot and got to pretend to be Fenn Rau, or some cool Black One thing, or whatever. If people have fun playing it, they'll keep playing it.

They are ridiculously fun.

19 minutes ago, pheaver said:

Lulo is basically in the same position pre-nerf Attack Shuttle Sabine was. Super cheap, so that it fits into many list styles, and super efficient. I suspect they'll bump him up at next opportunity.

I think you see so many Resistance players because the Resistance ships (especially A-Wings) are just plain fun. Every time I play as or against Resistance, there's usually some cool thing that you talk about after the game, whether it's when Lulo rolled 5 dice with Trick Shot and got to pretend to be Fenn Rau, or some cool Black One thing, or whatever. If people have fun playing it, they'll keep playing it.

Pretty much this. I find the As fun because it always feels like synchronized swimming in space as they converge, break apart, and converge again.

4 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Pretty much this. I find the As fun because it always feels like synchronized swimming in space as they converge, break apart, and converge again.

That's what I enjoyed about strikers. But with less agility. And no shields. And only 1 ept. And no chance to re-roll when you blank on those two agility dice. And no butt arc. And they cost more.

31 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Players gravitate to the most broken things and versions of them.

The fact that just 14 out of 599 lists were AAAAA, and only 14 out of 125 players using A-wings, means that massing them is not the most broken version.

And that means that it doesn't help your case when you are focusing on the 5 copies. It doesn't matter that " they can take 5 copies of it and 5 copies of heroic and still have room for multiple named pilots in the list " because they are actually better off not doing that.

Ah, the efficient market hypothesis.

Maybe(tm)?

1 minute ago, viedit said:

That's what I enjoyed about strikers. But with less agility. And no shields. And only 1 ept. And no chance to re-roll when you blank on those two agility dice. And no butt arc. And they cost more.

Yeah in light of the A-Wings pricing Strikers are clearly over priced. Everyone should be lowered by at least 2 and the generic 3 by 4.

1 minute ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Yeah in light of the A-Wings pricing Strikers are clearly over priced. Everyone should be lowered by at least 2 and the generic 3 by 4.

Just give me a double talent slot and access to heroic on a striker at the same cost and I'll shut up.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Ah, the efficient market hypothesis.

Maybe(tm)?

I can test the idea by looking at wins/losses.

The number 14 is low enough to be wonky in either direction. (It might even be lower because I realized that 9 people are twice in the dataset. I can have a look later whether that affects 5As)

I will also compare it to 5Y and XXYU/ XXXU / XYYU, three lists that just showed up recently. If they are more frequent then I think we can safely say that xwing players gravitate to the new hotness - if it's accesible and easy enough to play I'd guess.

20 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I mean, the unfortunate downside also has to be paired with the high upside of hot red dice by your opponent, making it a further low probability. And Heroic on anyone other than Lulo has a really low chance of happening on 3 green dice. The argument against Heroic definitely seems like more emotion than logic.

Yeah it's purely emotional that I think a 1 pt, unlimited talent upgrade, that EVERY single under-costed A-Wing can take that allows for you to re-roll ALL of your dice, without charges, that can be stacked with other mods, all in a list that has multiple named pilots, all on ships that just so happen to have the best dial in the entire game and turrets is unfair. It's definitely not because of my ability to play the game, follow what interactions are occurring, and compare them to other interactions of the same points cost.

Nope, only feels over here. A-Wings are fair. I hope they make Aethersprites as fair as the A-Wings are or maybe even more fair so I can just buy 5 and have a list ready to go. Maybe, in the interest of fairness, they can give them all turrets too and the best dial in the game. It would be a real shame if I couldn't just 2 hard or 5 straight -> focus rotate for 75 minutes. Let's see if we can't get a 40 point Obi-Wan to keep up with the fair and balanced AAAAA.

1 hour ago, ThinkingB said:

I'm sure there are a million excuses for this list, but this is blatant 1.0 power-creep nonsense.

I'm not sure power creep can really be a thing in 2.0 like it was in 1.0. I mean they could rerelease original pre pre pre nerf J5k Dengar in 2.0 and honestly it'd be fine as long as they cost him appropriately. I'll be the 1st to agree that the base RZ2 is slightly undercosted and that Lulo is pretty steeply undercosted. But all they need to do is bump them up a bit the next points change, problem solved. There's no creep because the power level of everything is contingent on its cost relative to everything else and it's easy to pull the outliers back down

so, Trip Ups banned on 2/28 and Wave 3 out on 3/21. Do we really need a deep dive into all the data for the Three-Week Hyperspace Meta?

3 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Nope, only feels over here. A-Wings are fair.

Give it a try then, 5 Awings without Lulo. Should be easy for you as they are so unfair.

1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

...but we also have among HST champions:

• 4 SF + Scorch

My Listfortress-fu isn't strong enough to find this... Can you share the list? *puppyeyes*

Just now, skotothalamos said:

so, Trip Ups banned on 2/28 and Wave 3 out on 3/21. Do we really need a deep dive into all the data for the Three-Week Hyperspace Meta?

They are still counting how many instances of heroic were at Krayt Cup.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Give it a try then, 5 Awings without Lulo. Should be easy for you as they are so unfair.

So, you want me to drop the most unfair part of this list, so that I can play it to prove how unfair it is?

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

My Listfortress-fu isn't strong enough to find this... Can you share the list? *puppyeyes*

I saw it on reddit in reference to the French HST that happened before the whole wave of the rest of Europe's/Australia's/United State's. I think he lost a game in Swiss, but that was his only weekend loss, obviously. It is a tad of a strange list.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v6!s=200!259:,,98,113,:;259:,,98,113,:;259:,,98,113,:;259:,,98,113,:;262:125,,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Just now, skotothalamos said:

so, Trip Ups banned on 2/28 and Wave 3 out on 3/21. Do we really need a deep dive into all the data for the Three-Week Hyperspace Meta?

Yes, because the data is there.

As always, it's not prescriptive in any form. But people in this very thread demonstrate why it is very valuable to dismiss some feelings that have no factual basis.

But most importantly, it is relatively rare to get so many lists in such a short time frame. That in itself is interesting.

Lastly, why not? It's not like you have to anything but choose whether to look at it or ignore it.

Just now, ThinkingB said:

So, you want me to drop the most unfair part of this list, so that I can play it to prove how unfair it is?

My point is that Lulo is the problem, not the RZ2 in general. You keep emphasizing the 5A. Of course you should then remove the known factor Lulo to demonstrate that the rest, too, is unfair.

7 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

Yeah it's purely emotional that I think a 1 pt, unlimited talent upgrade, that EVERY single under-costed A-Wing can take that allows for you to re-roll ALL of your dice, without charges, that can be stacked with other mods, all in a list that has multiple named pilots, all on ships that just so happen to have the best dial in the entire game and turrets is unfair. It's definitely not because of my ability to play the game, follow what interactions are occurring, and compare them to other interactions of the same points cost.

Curious - if it's not emotional, which seems to be quite thick coming across the text here, then have you been keeping data? I know a couple of Heroic users over here that keep stats on the number of times it triggers vs how often it's actually good. The results are not exactly screaming points change. You might get a game where it triggers four times (across the entirety of the list) and it helps you big... but the next match you might get ONE trigger.

I have concerns regarding the A-Wing, but I certainly do not have concerns about Heroic. I've used it, currently using it in a Vassal tournament, but don't plan to make it a card I'll be using often.

49 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Players gravitate to the most broken things and versions of them.

The fact that just 14 out of 599 lists were AAAAA, and only 14 out of 125 players using A-wings, means that massing them is not the most broken version.

And that means that it doesn't help your case when you are focusing on the 5 copies. It doesn't matter that " they can take 5 copies of it and 5 copies of heroic and still have room for multiple named pilots in the list " because they are actually better off not doing that.

🤨 Tripsilon wasn't being flown enmass either iirc. That didn't change that the upgrade combo that enabled it was broken as ****.