2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is @Brunas alive?

2 hours ago, RStan said:

I assume there's also a chance he crashed from Krayt Cup data compiling as well. It seemed he took a break from doing so right after Krayt Cup and would get to it later. Later seems like it could've been very recently along with the few Hyperspace Trials that occurred this weekend.

that

actually, wanted to add

to melt my brain in the meantime I've been playing on an ffxi classic server (edenxi.com), would recommend. I forgot how engaging old MMOs are - though 12 year old chris would be very disappointed to know that 15 years later I'm still just playing the same game. Nailed it?

Rdm/Bst forever in my heart.

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

12 year old chris would be very disappointed to know that 15 years later...

Freakin' kids never grow up and get better games. Get off my lawn!

On 3/11/2019 at 1:31 AM, baranidlo said:

It's pretty inaccurate and unfair to equate "1.0" = "Miranda and Ghost/Fenn".

The game had 6 years of life and there were plenty of lists where dials mattered a lot, even at the end of it's lifecycle.

Also, here's as unpopular opinion - dials matter much less in 2.0 than hype people here are willing to accept.

Supernaturals, Rebel bricks with "1 forward to victory", large base boosts, wide arcs, Proton Torps alphas, etc are all still a thing, you know..

I want to add one layer here. While we can point out 1.0 lists that just didn't care about dials as much as some other lists, it wasn't just that there were lists that "didn't care about dials." It's that they were often matched up against lists that did.

There could be a massive disparity between the importance of dials between two opposing lists in any matchup -- and often there was no real trade-off for being on the wrong end of that match up. You were just in a hole that you had to dig out from and play/be a heck of a lot better than your opponent. The better option was just to fly ships that didn't care about those choices.

2.0 has considerably narrowed that margin through a variety of rules changes and card effects and I think that's the ultimate reason the argument holds that dials matter a lot more this edition.

14 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

The last year of 1.0 was a bad game and should feel bad.

It did give us Quickdraw and 2 Silencers, and that's something.

8 hours ago, Biophysical said:

It did give us Quickdraw and 2 Silencers, and that's something.

Not that I don't like 2e Silencers, but 1e generic Silencers were wicked enjoyable. Autothrusters and Advanced Optics were great and easy dice mods. I always liked Advanced Sensors instead of FCS, which was a bunch of fun with the various red moves, and also when playing for bumps. It was a lot like flying a Defender, but fun.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

1e generic Silencers were wicked enjoyable... great and easy dice mods

Points today maybe?

Just now, Kaptin Krunch said:

Points today maybe?

We can count backwards from 200, at least.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

All I'm saying is, in the world of late 1e, generic Silencers were comparatively wholesome.

16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

All I'm saying is, in the world of late 1e, generic Silencers were comparatively wholesome.

I honestly like 2.0 silencers as well. They are B-Tier at best IMO, but they are fun. Shave a few more points off we'll have a stew going.

2 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I honestly like 2.0 silencers as well. They are B-Tier at best IMO, but they are fun. Shave a few more points off we'll have a stew going.

2.0 silencers FEEL great, just still a little too costly in that faction.

3 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I honestly like 2.0 silencers as well. They are B-Tier at best IMO, but they are fun. Shave a few more points off we'll have a stew going.

I know this guys who takes commonly-assumed B-Tier stuff and wrecks faces.

Just now, gennataos said:

I know this guys who takes commonly-assumed B-Tier stuff and wrecks faces.

Doesn;'t mean it's not B-tier, it means he works really hard.

(sometimes it's not B-Tier... like 'eMpIrE iS bAd iN hYpErSpAcE!', so who knows?)

Also, unrelated - can I ask anyone in here to peruse the missing lists for Kraytcup, and if you know the person, ask them to fill it in?

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/422

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Doesn;'t mean it's not B-tier, it means he works really hard.

(sometimes it's not B-Tier... like 'eMpIrE iS bAd iN hYpErSpAcE!', so who knows?)

I don't disagree, but he makes it look easy.

34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Not that I don't like 2e Silencers, but 1e generic Silencers were wicked enjoyable. Autothrusters and Advanced Optics were great and easy dice mods. I always liked Advanced Sensors instead of FCS, which was a bunch of fun with the various red moves, and also when playing for bumps. It was a lot like flying a Defender, but fun.

I loved Silencers, because it was the late 1.0 ship were it was arc locked and dial dependent, but it was a late 1.0 ship, so GET just threw the goodies at it. FCS? Store a focus? Absurd dial? Repositioning? Good hp behind solid defense? Screws turrets with Autothrusters? Sure, put it all in there. You have to point at things to hurt them, you deserve it.

You know when there's a bunch of arc locked ships that are totally happy to see Ghost/Fenn or NymMiranda that something weird is going on.

13 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I honestly like 2.0 silencers as well. They are B-Tier at best IMO, but they are fun. Shave a few more points off we'll have a stew going.

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

2.0 silencers FEEL great, just still a little too costly in that faction.

I'm having a really hard time getting a read on them. I played them for a few games and they felt okay, but in those games I wasn't activating Optics very often, it was sort of more like Accuracy Corrector, guaranteeing two hits. I played a few more games after that and Optics started to generate 3 hots more often, and it started feeling really good. Statistically, 3 hits is about 60% with optics (according to the dice calculator), so I think those later games are more representative.

There's something pretty cool about parking that Fanatical Optics Silencer in a spot and telling that I5 that they can shoot you, but they might just be activating Fanatical, and they might just get a Fanatical/Optics shot back at them. It's a milder version if the Quickdraw dilemma. It's still a big chunk of points, though.

8 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I honestly like 2.0 silencers as well. They are B-Tier at best IMO, but they are fun. Shave a few more points off we'll have a stew going.

Oh, I like 2e Silencers, too. But they're pretty different in how they feel.

1e Silencer was as reasonable as a passive-mods ship can get. 1e Autothrusters did their blank thing, depending on position and such. Advanced Optics let you time-shift a Focus, but you had to store it. The Advanced Sensors I liked only ever allowed a single action on Sienar-Jaemus Analysts anyhow. But at a fairly-low 4 PS, you had to think about positioning. But passive mods gave you the tools to get by on essentially 1 action a turn.

2e Silencers are a lot more active. Autothrusters is the built-in PTL style of stress-based double actions. They no longer have the Sensor slot. Fanatical is a pretty interesting talent, since it doesn't come on-line until later in the game. You'll potentially want to change how you fly and how you take actions. Being beefy TIE Interceptors is kinda fun, with the same nimbleness, but the extra health so that mistakes aren't quite as game-ending.

Stray Thought: With the toughness of Silencers being decent... Hull+Shield on Soontir Fel? The 2 damage which used to grant half-points doesn't any more, the 3 damage for a kill is now only half-points, and it'll take 5 damage for the final kill... 15 points means someone pretty much has to kill him twice...

First Order is a really fun faction (even if I mostly just fly Silencers and SFs). As to tiers, I guess my thought keeps coming back go First Order being fairly well balanced, and thus not unfair enough to be top-tier.

19 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Doesn;'t mean it's not B-tier, it means he works really hard.

(sometimes it's not B-Tier... like 'eMpIrE iS bAd iN hYpErSpAcE!', so who knows?)

More and more I am starting to think that in 2.0 B-Tier really means a higher burden of execution. For example I truly believe that there are A-Tier two ship lists, but you have to be really good at flying them and know all of your matchups.

Or you could take 5Ys, point them in a direction and generally not be wrong.

24 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

There's something pretty cool about parking that Fanatical Optics Silencer in a spot and telling that I5 that they can shoot you, but they might just be activating Fanatical, and they might just get a Fanatical/Optics shot back at them. It's a milder version if the Quickdraw dilemma. It's still a big chunk of points, though.

It's almost 1.0 dice. Had a TN meme fun list, had a Silencer with fanatical and optics roll up to a ship at range 1... and rolled 2 blank, a focus and a hit... with TN on the other side of the target at range one, I just rolled all the dice over to hits and crits, spending one focus token. It's kinda silly, actually... but really pricey.

19 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

More and more I am starting to think that in 2.0 B-Tier really means a higher burden of execution. For example I truly believe that there are A-Tier two ship lists, but you have to be really good at flying them and know all of your matchups. 

Or you could take 5Ys, point them in a direction and generally not be wrong.

I meant to pull something out of my .. and write on this topic, here's an image to illustrate how I see lists actually placing into tiers:

Each list has a performance floor and ceiling, and the mean of the distribution on the side is the most frequent case. This can shift when looking at different groups of players or at an individual player and several of his games or even matchups. E.g. List nr 5 could be the 5 Awings, starting somewhere in good B-tier level and if Ontopski plays it it's S-tier.

The point of the whole thing is to say that Tiers are not that helpful as concept unless they are understood as distribution and their potential is considered.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I meant to pull something out of my .. and write on this topic, here's an image to illustrate how I see lists actually placing into tiers:

Each list has a performance floor and ceiling, and the mean of the distribution on the side is the most frequent case. This can shift when looking at different groups of players or at an individual player and several of his games or even matchups. E.g. List nr 5 could be the 5 Awings, starting somewhere in good B-tier level and if Ontopski plays it it's S-tier.

The point of the whole thing is to say that Tiers are not that helpful as concept unless they are understood as distribution and their potential is considered.

That pretty much lines up with what I was thinking, but on graph paper.

And graph paper makes everything better.

18 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

It's almost 1.0 dice. Had a TN meme fun list, had a Silencer with fanatical and optics roll up to a ship at range 1... and rolled 2 blank, a focus and a hit... with TN on the other side of the target at range one, I just rolled all the dice over to hits and crits, spending one focus token. It's kinda silly, actually... but really pricey.

I think part of what makes the Silencer weird is that it's not easily compared to other ships. The 3 AGI with 6 HP is a rare defensive profile, rarer still in that it's mated to a movement profile associated with lighter, weaker ships, and of course it hits pretty hard. This isn't a combination we have a lot of experience with. Defenders are fast and tough, but don't move half as well as Silencers. A-wings and Interceptors move, but don't hit as hard and can't sustain damage. T70s are about as tough, and hit reasonably hard, but can't hit hard and move like the Silencer due to dial and linked actions, and that extra green die makes a big difference at Range 3, especially against the common 2 dice shots that are emerging in Hyperspace.

It's very capable, but mostly restricted to 3 ship lists, getting 4 ships only if you have two pretty light ships. Consequently it has to do a lot of work, and it probably has to do that work in a few different ways.