1 minute ago, player3010587 said:

OK, it looks like we have to go back to basics. Let's take a look at the most epic of all arc-dodges, the one that its executioner gets tired of hearing about because he has had even better plays and games in general, the one that had us convinced that mental measurement and a keen eye were required for high level play, the one that defeated the cloaking shenanigans, the one most looked at and pointed to, and the one that determined not only 1 championship--swinging it from a certain defeat to a clutch victory--but began the 3 back-to-back series. The epic move begins at 12:20.

uhmm I don't think you understood what I said...

I want to watch arcdodging example of current Hyperspace. I'm very aware of how good large PWT with high ps and boost were in first edition

14 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

as I said, I would love to watch of video where anything you said there worked in favour of the one arcdodging.

Coruscant had some amazing ones (the Eide's one where he danced the whole game just to win halving Whisper comes to mind), but they usually involved Supernatural, advanced sensor or decloaking, all things almost gone from HS.

The latest updated GSP video for example, which I beleive involves @Tlfj200, see a resistence list failing its arcdodging attempt just to be smashed by the imperial joust. Vermeil had deathtroopers triggering twice, that's true, but even if they didn't I don't think the outcome would have changed much

So, to be fair to my opponent, Poe 3A is hilariously bad against that empire list. There's not much agency there.

When my 5A game goes up, there's a ton of cat-and-mouse because it's against TIE swarm, but the As do arc dodge via boost.

Also, @pheaver's vassal league game against Ricky's 5strikers + wampa had a lot of arc dodging. It has the bonus of being absolutely hilarious, too. Hopefully we have that vlog somewhere.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

Does anyone have a video of someone successfully arcdodging to win in second edition without having SN, sensors, decloak nor BB8?

EDIT: bonus point if it's a proper game and not a skilled players vs a succulent shitshow

I can try to dig some up, but I think the disconnect here might be on the definition of arc dodger.

In my experience, in 2e, if my opponent wants to catch my arc dodger, they can, but they're so cheap now that usually they pay a heavy positioning price for doing so. Can you be more specific I guess is what I mean? I have some games played where my soontir dodges all the arcs, accomplishes nothing, and I lost, and also some games where he went to a place that was sufficiently punishing for the opponent to bite on - they still bit on him and he died, but his sacrifice was not in vain.

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

uhmm I don't think you understood what I said...

I want to watch arcdodging example of current Hyperspace. I'm very aware of how good large PWT with high ps and boost were in first edition

If that game involved the side arcs (the correct location for most Han strats in arc indicators), the boost would still give him a shot. This is why Han is still good in hyperspace.

5 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

uhmm I don't think you understood what I said...

I want to watch arcdodging example of current Hyperspace. I'm very aware of how good large PWT with high ps and boost were in first edition

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I can try to dig some up, but I think the disconnect here might be on the definition of arc dodger.

In my experience, in 2e, if my opponent wants to catch my arc dodger, they can, but they're so cheap now that usually they pay a heavy positioning price for doing so. Can you be more specific I guess is what I mean? I have some games played where my soontir dodges all the arcs, accomplishes nothing, and I lost, and also some games where he went to a place that was sufficiently punishing for the opponent to bite on - they still bit on him and he died, but his sacrifice was not in vain.

True. I also have some vassal vlogs of some good black one poe usage... but it definitely predicates on what @Brunas basically said - I put poe in a position to punish over-commitment to him.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

True. I also have some vassal vlogs of some good black one poe usage... but it definitely predicates on what @Brunas basically said - I put poe in a position to punish over-commitment to him.

Link to Vassal vlogs for S&V's 'Aces' League

10 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

No, I want to watch a game where arcdodging worked so I might take notes on how to do it in my games too since so far, unless it was coupled with hot dice too, it ain't working for me

Okay, I get that.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I can try to dig some up, but I think the disconnect here might be on the definition of arc dodger.

In my experience, in 2e, if my opponent wants to catch my arc dodger, they can, but they're so cheap now that usually they pay a heavy positioning price for doing so. Can you be more specific I guess is what I mean? I have some games played where my soontir dodges all the arcs, accomplishes nothing, and I lost, and also some games where he went to a place that was sufficiently punishing for the opponent to bite on - they still bit on him and he died, but his sacrifice was not in vain.

I feel like the Morgan Reid games Echo Base covered does this sort of thing. Arc dodging, to me, isn't just flying toward something and dancing out of their arcs, that's relatively easy moving last and having the options available to get you out of trouble. It's the cat and mouse game, like @Tlfj200 mentioned above. Watching these games really opened my eyes to how I could approach the game with ships like these. Morgan shows incredible patience, flitting ships all about with seemingly no rhyme or reason, which makes it incredibly hard for the opposition to commit to a course of action without fear of reprisal. At least, that's the way I've interpreted them.

Not that long ago, I think I typically set up with a main force and a flanker, maybe two flankers, but would often end up with a unified front or, at best, still a main force and a flanker. Engagements would start fairly early, maybe round 4-6 at the latest. Now? Man, I'll dance for 45 minutes without a shot fired until I see the opening I've been waiting for, and when I do engage, it's from 3-4 distinct directions.

Oh, hai. Just uploaded.

17 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So, to be fair to my opponent, Poe 3A is hilariously bad against that empire list. There's not much agency there.

When my 5A game goes up, there's a ton of cat-and-mouse because it's against TIE swarm, but the As do arc dodge via boost.

Also, @pheaver's vassal league game against Ricky's 5strikers + wampa had a lot of arc dodging. It has the bonus of being absolutely hilarious, too. Hopefully we have that vlog somewhere.

Yeah your opponent was in tough position even before turn 0

16 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I can try to dig some up, but I think the disconnect here might be on the definition of arc dodger.

In my experience, in 2e, if my opponent wants to catch my arc dodger, they can, but they're so cheap now that usually they pay a heavy positioning price for doing so. Can you be more specific I guess is what I mean? I have some games played where my soontir dodges all the arcs, accomplishes nothing, and I lost, and also some games where he went to a place that was sufficiently punishing for the opponent to bite on - they still bit on him and he died, but his sacrifice was not in vain.

I meant games where your opponent doesn't suicide himself on the bait (be it Soontir or Poe), take points on something not as slippery as it and in the end lose

But rather than Soontir, which I imagine you played with Redline and Whisper, I'm actually interested in HS legal examples.

I'm not sure I'm expressing myself properly thought

12 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

True. I also have some vassal vlogs of some good black one poe usage... but it definitely predicates on what @Brunas basically said - I put poe in a position to punish over-commitment to him.

But why your opponent should overcommit on a black one poe? Mine usually doesn't and the rest of my list can't prevent him for taking points

EDIT: brb watching videos

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Oh, hai. Just uploaded.

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah your opponent was in tough position even before turn 0

I meant games where your opponent doesn't suicide himself on the bait (be it Soontir or Poe), take points on something not as slippery as it and in the end lose

But rather than Soontir, which I imagine you played with Redline and Whisper, I'm actually interested in HS legal examples.

I'm not sure I'm expressing myself properly thought

But why your opponent should overcommit on a black one poe? Mine usually doesn't and the rest of my list can't prevent him for taking points

EDIT: brb watching videos

Hey, yell at Paul Heaver.

He learned a lesson that day:

4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I meant games where your opponent doesn't suicide himself on the bait (be it Soontir or Poe), take points on something not as slippery as it and in the end lose

But rather than Soontir, which I imagine you played with Redline and Whisper, I'm actually interested in HS legal examples.

Yeah - those examples are much easier to find in extended, simply from having more aces to choose from. In the last bit before the points change yeah, Soontir/Whisper/Redline (which doesn't count, as you noted, because decloak/AS) - but played plenty of soontir tie swarm, etc styled lists before that.

Actually, I'm not sure if this qualifies, but it's my favorite archetype in the game:

Omicron Group Pilot (43)
Admiral Sloane (10)

Ship total: 53 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 5

Soontir Fel (52)
Ship total: 52 Half Points: 26 Threshold: 2

"Whisper" (54)
Ship total: 54 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 3

"Duchess" (42)
Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2


Total: 201

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v6!s=200!168:-1,-1,14,-1,-1,-1:;179:-1,-1,-1:;199:-1,-1,-1,-1:;211:-1,-1,-1,-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Post points it's 201, but slight modifications on it would still work fine I'm sure.

Again - that includes decloak, and duchess is basically supernatural reflexes with some limitations, though.

Do Resistance A-Wings count as arc-dodgers for you? Or turrets?

42 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Okay, I get that.

I feel like the Morgan Reid games Echo Base covered does this sort of thing. Arc dodging, to me, isn't just flying toward something and dancing out of their arcs, that's relatively easy moving last and having the options available to get you out of trouble. It's the cat and mouse game, like @Tlfj200 mentioned above. Watching these games really opened my eyes to how I could approach the game with ships like these. Morgan shows incredible patience, flitting ships all about with seemingly no rhyme or reason, which makes it incredibly hard for the opposition to commit to a course of action without fear of reprisal. At least, that's the way I've interpreted them.

Not that long ago, I think I typically set up with a main force and a flanker, maybe two flankers, but would often end up with a unified front or, at best, still a main force and a flanker. Engagements would start fairly early, maybe round 4-6 at the latest. Now? Man, I'll dance for 45 minutes without a shot fired until I see the opening I've been waiting for, and when I do engage, it's from 3-4 distinct directions.

Yeah, this is a perfect example of what I was looking for. A great game from Morgan

26 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Do Resistance A-Wings count as arc-dodgers for you? Or turrets?

Anything can count as arc-dodger if it's played as such

8 hours ago, Darth Seridur said:

Jousting with Soontir and the Inquisitor is the part of 1.0 that i miss the most.

It was so fair and wholesome to never take damage.

Don't forget skillfull, they called it palp aces for a reason

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Does anyone have a video of someone successfully arcdodging to win in second edition without having SN, sensors, decloak nor BB8?

EDIT: bonus point if it's a proper game and not a skilled players vs a succulent shitshow

Are you serious?

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

That jamming BDV into Poe is one of my favorite X-wing moments.

We stare at little squares on big mouse pads and put those squares in spots that other squares cant “see” them based on where we think all those other squares move and point their lasers. Its not hard. Know your maps and go the safe place. Sometimes you gotta go to the dangerous places to find the safe places later on when it matters more.

Ironicaĺly.

Arc dodging?

DEATH TROOPERS!

Loved it.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Are you serious?

ehm, yes? Is it that weird that I want to watch some HS games between similar skilled players where the one attempting to arcdodge actually wins it?

I just don't think it happens that often and since I'd rather play the arcdodging game than the efficiency jousting one I would love to get schooled by someone succeeding at that.

I would particularly appreciate if said footage would show arcdodging vs efficiency lists

32 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Is it that weird

Its not weird at all actually.

Response with less salt:

Go look through this on your own for a bit, replace a couple hours of forum or YASB or podcast time with just watching games, its a great resource: http://xba.azurewebsites.net/

Awhile back I sifted through about 50 games to review the initial engagement method, mostly games in the cut.

This is how the #s broke down.

The categories are imperfect and the # of games to small to be meaningful but I dont care its still interesting and not defining things is even less useful.

Everything 100% jousts using all of its ships at least 25% of the time. Everything also doesnt joust at least some % of the time.

Alot of the time its impossible to tell if either player was intentionally doing anything specific making the exercise almost pointless, but most of the time its sorta obvious whomst is "trying".

Eventually ill finish this exercise up for about another 100 or so games and better categories i havent figured out yet to make this more meaningful but I am lazy.

Alternatively you can watch basically any casual night game and see evidence of average xwing skill and arc dodging or not "jousting".

People joke that everyone only jousts but its absolutely not true except that its also definitely kinda true but still over exaggerated and possibly underestimated.

10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Thanks for the link!

4 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Thanks for the link!

Thanks whoever made that battle report site and @Goldsquadronpodcast @Musical Xeno

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its not weird at all actually.

Response with less salt:

Go look through this on your own for a bit, replace a couple hours of forum or YASB or podcast time with just watching games, its a great resource: http://xba.azurewebsites.net/

Awhile back I sifted through about 50 games to review the initial engagement method.

This is how the #s broke down.

The categories are imperfect and the # of games to small to be meaningful but I dont care its still interesting and not defining things is even less useful.

Everything 100% jousts using all of its ships at least 25% of the time. Everything also doesnt joust at least some % of the time.

Alot of the time its impossible to tell if either player was intentionally doing anything specific making the exercise almost pointless, but most of the time its sorta obvious whomst is "trying".

Eventually ill finish this exercise up for about another 100 or so games to make this more meaningful but I am lazy.

Alternatively you can watch basically any casual night game and see evidence of average xwing skill and arc dodging.

People joke that everyone only jousts but its absolutely not true except that its also definitely kinda true but still over exaggerated.

This is a great resourse, definitely saving it.

My question sparked exactly by my own observation about my local meta where I noticed that in HS the most successful players usually relay on "holding back the ace" without doing anything particulary fancy, which seems something that was also good in your sample.

8 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

This is a great resourse, definitely saving it.

My question sparked exactly by my own observation about my local meta where I noticed that in HS the most successful players usually relay on "holding back the ace" without doing anything particulary fancy, which seems something that was also good in your sample.

Yea because sometimes you can trade some **** and then bully people with initative rules. But thats not always a good tactic. Going fast is correct to sometimes for sure. Force your opponent to be awkward is also a good strategy.

10 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Nope, pretty sure we said it first.

... Ahem.