17 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

I have been on this crusade longer than I've known you

As have I: I started with 5 generic TIE/FO.

12 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Was Ego part of a deep plan to learn the ways of your enemy to more effectively carry out the crusade, or was it your Apostate phase?

And as Bio has pointed out, I have been true to my Generic brothers, unlike you!

6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'll admit that Tie Fighters can be amazingly effective, or utter crap, depending on the dice. People always say you can't just blame the dice for how things go at times and you should plan for that. I think with lots of Tie Fighters that it sometimes can't be helped. I mean, I have had dice where they just can't be hit or not hit for much. My first game on Saturday had me with dice where it was hard to hit my Tie Fighters. There were a couple of rounds with Richard White that I just couldn't land a hit. Even Vader with 3 hits just shrugs against 3 Evades. On the other hand, Tie Fighters can just blank out all day long. My game vs. First Order just had some crucially bad luck at critical times. It's not that all my dice in that game were bad, but Tie Fighters with a Focus can sometimes seem to attract blanks better than anything else. The same for offense. I had lots of hits with no modification going on. Double crits and the such. One Tie Fighter without mods was able to take out the shields of a Resistance A-wing who rolled badly.

After a few experiences with them in 2.0, I feel like this randomness is probably a big part of why TIEs don't see as much play. They don't really seem that bad to me, they just sort of go against the consistency that most people are looking for in tournament lists.

I remember playing with the few lists we had pre-points last summer and several games were down to a TIE Fighter vs the world and ended up a lot closer than they really should have looking at the points on the table. These experiences gave me some serious rose-tinted glasses about 2.0, because they led me to believe that pretty much everything relied on unreliable dice to do damage and prevent it, and thus I believed the game was going to be even more reliant on good positioning than it is. In general my early TIE-based observations about 2.0 were still correct when compared to 1.0, but still, lots of other ships are a lot less random than TIE Fighters.

I think TIE Fighters are actually probably fine, but people just don't want to fly them because they're scared of the variance (myself included).

18 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Was Ego part of a deep plan to learn the ways of your enemy to more effectively carry out the crusade, or was it your Apostate phase?

IT HAS A MISSILE

THAT'S A FIRING ARC, CLEARLY

13 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think TIE Fighters are actually probably fine, but people just don't want to fly them because they're scared of the variance (myself included).

Howl, Iden, and Del Meeko aren't enough?

That's why TIEs are cheap: high variance and differing amounts of reliability. Typical forms of bad luck insurance are costed appropriately and aggressively. For an example in Empire: Countdown, Iden, and Howlrunner are the most expensive pilots of their respective chassis.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

I'm pretty sure the developers intend people to drop seismics or conner nets out of skilled bombardier Strikers but it doesn't seem like anybody's found that to be particularly worthwhile

Well you don’t know me then.

Signed

The Seismic Striker King

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

I did play Richard White in the last round and he had a Tie Swarm. It was Howlrunner, Iden, Gideon, Del Meeko, Wampa, and 2 Academies. He hadn't lost a match all day.

Whoot! He's been having a stretch of bad luck so this is nice to see.

True fact, the TIE pilots who live long enough to become aces aren't the best in class, they're the luckiest.

27 minutes ago, svelok said:

Howl, Iden, and Del Meeko aren't enough?

Same is true, more so even, for Sentinels and Alpha’s.

Ive got a list I’ve been flying since before the points change. Three Planetary Sentinels, two Alpha, one Del Meeko. I’ve got scars from bad dice variance on that. Partly because my local meta was very Punusher Bomber heavy. Do you know what loaded Redline, Deathrain, Jones Rhymer does to I1 Interceptors?

Point being I could fly very well, block multiple ships, and get a bunch of focused shots against a tokenless Redline, and wind up only doing 2 damage due to variance.

So even after the pints change, I am shy to bring it out. And would not bring it out in a tourney. Not because I think it is bad, per se. in fact the times I’ve flown it post points I’ve found it quite good, though the Resistance 4x I5 list makes me real nervous. It’s brutal when flown well, and I am hands down one of the best Striker and Interceptor pilots in my region.

But I’ve still got memories of games where the dice just hosed me. And the flat reality is if you lose out on the initial passes, it can be game over right there. So poor dice variance on the first turn or two of the engagement can wipe out any positional, blocking, or flanking advantage you create.

Which is tough, I genuinely love flying that many ships that can get so many places. It’s a nightmare for my opponents, and capable of catching even Super Luke (I had one guy supernatural boost Luke before a 4K, because I’d blocked all open positions, but one in the kill box. Unfortunately the boost put his K off the board). But the trauma from poor variance when you execute perfectly causing you to lose is real, and why you won’t see them showing in tourneys.

Automated Targeting Computer: Mod, Imperial only. Must not have (lock) on your action bar.

When attacking, you **must** reroll 1 attack die.

Potentially fixes a lot if problems in Empire, but generics still need to not be so **** frail.

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

As have I: I started with 5 generic TIE/FO.

And as Bio has pointed out, I have been true to my Generic brothers, unlike you!

We got diverted slightly here, i was reffering to my war on the pillars.

As for @Biophysical while ive historically had a preference for them, I like to think I've been fairly pragmatic. People seem to forget that i played striaght palp aces for like a year and attanni for a really long time after that. I still think low init jousters need a little extra to compete, but stuff like Leia and the plethora of rear arcs seem to be doing the trick. I tell you though, if you told 2015 me that I'd be taking fat han to a tournament i wanted to win, in part because while i had identified five ship rebels as good, i didn't have time to practice it because i was spending my time with a girl, he'd be pretty mad.

Just now, catachanninja said:

We got diverted slightly here, i was reffering to my war on the pillars.

As for @Biophysical while ive historically had a preference for them, I like to think I've been fairly pragmatic. People seem to forget that i played striaght palp aces for like a year and attanni for a really long time after that. I still think low init jousters need a little extra to compete, but stuff like Leia and the plethora of rear arcs seem to be doing the trick. I tell you though, if you told 2015 me that I'd be taking fat han to a tournament i wanted to win, in part because while i had identified five ship rebels as good, i didn't have time to practice it because i was spending my time with a girl, he'd be pretty mad.

NO! you must like a specific thing.

CHOOSE YOUR FACTION, FOREVER!

(the real answer is things change - both the way stuff plays, and people change - it's allowed)

Is Scum Han good? Are Mining Guild TIEs good? Is this good? https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!h=200!89:133,-1,55,43,-1,96,-1,152:;93:-1,61,-1:;304:-1:;304:-1:;304:-1:;304:-1:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

It seems interesting at least.

Maybe the contrast between TIE Swarm and old school BBBBZ is relevant? The TIEs have very reliable offense, and mostly rely on variance for defense. The Bs have very reliable health, but mostly rely on variance for offense.

Doing no math, the beef should have a higher consistent finish and the TIEs should have higher peaks and lower valleys? The uncertainty of what you are going to get and the frustration when you swing low might be a reason people shy away from TIE swarms, aside from the current theory of “gives me a headache”.

edit: it is one of the reason I run a bounty hunter over Fenn Rau. Fenn can win a game single handedly with good variance or pop in the first shot. I always kinda know what I’m gonna get out of a firespray.

Vader Howl swarm is cool, but i think i prefer Vader and the 3 named strikers still with a mix of crackshot and FCS.

1 minute ago, AEIllingworth said:

Maybe the contrast between TIE Swarm and old school BBBBZ is relevant? The TIEs have very reliable offense, and mostly rely on variance for defense. The Bs have very reliable health, but mostly rely on variance for offense.

Doing no math, the beef should have a higher consistent finish and the TIEs should have higher peaks and lower valleys? The uncertainty of what you are going to get and the frustration when you swing low might be a reason people shy away from TIE swarms, aside from the current theory of “gives me a headache”.

Yup. Take the 5 double tap dorsal Y’s. Compare them to, say, 5 Strikers. The Strikers are more maneuverable, and if you’re using the Black Squad ones, move and reposition after the Y’s.

However if you were to ask me to pick who wins? Well I’m going to pick the Y’s. Theoretically the Strikers can dodge more, and have higher burst*. But the reality is it would be very hard to remove one Y before it shoots. Let alone two.

Yet it would not surprise me the least to see two to three strikers get removed in a straight joust on the first round of engagement.

yet the points are pretty close, one point off. It doesn’t feel that way though. And let’s set aside how the black squads are heinously overpriced at 4 points for a 2 initiative bump over Sentinels. But he Y’s have enough beef to ignore variance. They also take enough shots that a few bad rolls doesn’t sink them. Over time they will reliably do what you expect.

*though the double tap really skews things. 2 two dice attacks versus 2 defense? Or one 3 dice versus 1? I probably go for the former.

Does anyone have a video of someone successfully arcdodging to win in second edition without having SN, sensors, decloak nor BB8?

EDIT: bonus point if it's a proper game and not a skilled players vs a succulent shitshow

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Does anyone have a video of someone successfully arcdodging to win in second edition without having SN, sensors, decloak nor BB8?

My game with 5A va tie swarm round one of KC (video pending).

It does occur, most often with boost.

Ive also done it (far more rarely) with afterburners vader.

@Tlfj200 How did you do in the Top 50 with Vader/Vermiel/Countdown/Gideon?

18 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Does anyone have a video of someone successfully arcdodging to win in second edition without having SN, sensors, decloak nor BB8?

EDIT: bonus point if it's a proper game and not a skilled players vs a succulent shitshow

No, I do not have a video (but i highly recommend the coverage of the Coruscant Invitational, as those are the most skilled players in the world out-witting and dodging each other at IQ 200 *meme term* plays). But every tournament that Gold Squad has been to involves at least half the games where a simple boost or a plain barrel roll are good enough. And that is before we start talking about Adaptive Ailerons so that the maneuver dodges, Soontir's double reposition thanks to autothrusters, large base boost, etc.

The fact that this question has been raised has me very concerned about what some call "The Dying Art of the Arc Dodge". So here's a fast bit of advice (not going to infringe @Goldsquadronpodcast's superior term and item of "Quick Tip"): always overshoot on the engage. If you see your opponent trying to force an engagement that would be a joust if you do a hard turn, at the very hardest, do a bank. That way, if you don't like the engagement, you can always repo out easily (and that is the main strength of aces, being able to decide when or not to take shots). Sometimes just going straight and fast with a bank boost in will do it. Skilled ace players circle each other with their aces like vultures (often for a minimum of 3 turns!), letting their brawlers dish it out whilst the aces pounce in to get an epic "backstab streak", to use TF2 terminology, or to absolutely wreck any of the brawling ships that get a little too greedy, separated, wounded, etc. If you have double repo like Poe or Soontir, banking into a rock just before clipping it is a fun strat. You choose which way to barrel roll away from the rock from next turn and could then boost to further your plots. It's highly effective given how your opponent's ships have already made the decisions as to which way to dodge the rock. There is so much to discuss that I cannot fit in one post.

-Edit- BTW, @Goldsquadronpodcast, could you do a Quick Tip on leveraging basic repositions for arc dodging? I feel that you would do the topic justice, especially considering how many of the newcomers in my player group love the series and want one for dodging arcs.

What is the main draw of 5A over 5 optics SFs? Is it mainly the dial and boost? I've no table time with either so I don't have a feel for it.

29 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

No, I do not have a video (but i highly recommend the coverage of the Coruscant Invitational, as those are the most skilled players in the world out-witting and dodging each other at IQ 200 *meme term* plays). But every tournament that Gold Squad has been to involves at least half the games where a simple boost or a plain barrel roll are good enough. And that is before we start talking about Adaptive Ailerons so that the maneuver dodges, Soontir's double reposition thanks to autothrusters, large base boost, etc.

The fact that this question has been raised has me very concerned about what some call "The Dying Art of the Arc Dodge". So here's a fast bit of advice (not going to infringe @Goldsquadronpodcast's superior term and item of "Quick Tip"): always overshoot on the engage. If you see your opponent trying to force an engagement that would be a joust if you do a hard turn, at the very hardest, do a bank. That way, if you don't like the engagement, you can always repo out easily (and that is the main strength of aces, being able to decide when or not to take shots). Sometimes just going straight and fast with a bank boost in will do it. Skilled ace players circle each other with their aces like vultures (often for a minimum of 3 turns!), letting their brawlers dish it out whilst the aces pounce in to get an epic "backstab streak", to use TF2 terminology, or to absolutely wreck any of the brawling ships that get a little too greedy, separated, wounded, etc. If you have double repo like Poe or Soontir, banking into a rock just before clipping it is a fun strat. You choose which way to barrel roll away from the rock from next turn and could then boost to further your plots. It's highly effective given how your opponent's ships have already made the decisions as to which way to dodge the rock. There is so much to discuss that I cannot fit in one post.

-Edit- BTW, @Goldsquadronpodcast, could you do a Quick Tip on leveraging basic repositions for arc dodging? I feel that you would do the topic justice, especially considering how many of the newcomers in my player group love the series and want one for dodging arcs.

as I said, I would love to watch of video where anything you said there worked in favour of the one arcdodging.

Coruscant had some amazing ones (the Eide's one where he danced the whole game just to win halving Whisper comes to mind), but they usually involved Supernatural, advanced sensor or decloaking, all things almost gone from HS.

The latest updated GSP video for example, which I beleive involves @Tlfj200, see a resistence list failing its arcdodging attempt just to be smashed by the imperial joust. Vermeil had deathtroopers triggering twice, that's true, but even if they didn't I don't think the outcome would have changed much

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

as I said, I would love to watch of video where anything you said there worked in favour of the one arcdodging.

Coruscant had some amazing ones (the Eide's one where he danced the whole game just to win halving Whisper comes to mind), but they usually involved Supernatural, advanced sensor or decloaking, all things almost gone from HS.

The latest updated GSP video for example, which I beleive involves @Tlfj200, see a resistence list failing its arcdodging attempt just to be smashed by the imperial joust. Vermeil had deathtroopers triggering twice, that's true, but even if they didn't I don't think the outcome would have changed much

I'm not sure what you're driving at. That jousting is better than arc dodging? You appear to be trying to prove an "I don't believe you" point. I think?

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

I'm not sure what you're driving at. That jousting is better than arc dodging? You appear to be trying to prove an "I don't believe you" point. I think?

No, I want to watch a game where arcdodging worked so I might take notes on how to do it in my games too since so far, unless it was coupled with hot dice too, it ain't working for me

13 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

as I said, I would love to watch of video where anything you said there worked in favour of the one arcdodging.

Coruscant had some amazing ones (the Eide's one where he danced the whole game just to win halving Whisper comes to mind), but they usually involved Supernatural, advanced sensor or decloaking, all things almost gone from HS.

The latest updated GSP video for example, which I beleive involves @Tlfj200, see a resistence list failing its arcdodging attempt just to be smashed by the imperial joust. Vermeil had deathtroopers triggering twice, that's true, but even if they didn't I don't think the outcome would have changed much

OK, it looks like we have to go back to basics. Let's take a look at the most epic of all arc-dodges, the one that its executioner gets tired of hearing about because he has had even better plays and games in general, the one that had us convinced that mental measurement and a keen eye were required for high level play, the one that defeated the cloaking shenanigans, the one most looked at and pointed to, and the one that determined not only 1 championship--swinging it from a certain defeat to a clutch victory--but began the 3 back-to-back series. The epic move begins at 12:20.

Edit: granted, his attempted boost to the starboard under 2nd edition rules would be considered a fail and a loss of an action, but the whole move was clutch anyway. He correctly guessed which move would put him right before, but not touching, the asteroid, and then subsequently had enough distance to make a boost off.