34 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

That would be hilarious. Both one shotting each other pretty much

Yup. It would be a terrifying game of brinkmanship and accurately eyeballing speed 5.

On 1.3.2017 at 11:41 AM, Green Knight said:

Sorry, but this is just a sad development in armada. Don't get me wrong though: it's entirely legit, and it's great that this abomination is shown in all it's dark glory.

Ramming, effectively dealing unstoppable dice less damage AFTER moving, in a game built around shoot-then-move and custom dice.

Meh.

I feel similar about it. I really like the creativity of making such a list but at the same point it is built around abusing a game mechanic that captures the "real" action of ramming rather poorly.

Now I don't want to start a dicussion about how to handle ramming in game because I do not have a better solution than what is currently in game, but I think FFG should at least put an end to engine tech double rams by ruling that suffering damage from overlapping a ship or obstacle prevents the ship from taking any further actions.

So e.g. Demo could not shoot after ramming, engine techs could not ram twice, and Flight commander could not activate squads after moving if the ship rams/overlaps, FCT would not work after ram etc..

21 minutes ago, User1138 said:

I feel similar about it. I really like the creativity of making such a list but at the same point it is built around abusing a game mechanic that captures the "real" action of ramming rather poorly.

Now I don't want to start a dicussion about how to handle ramming in game because I do not have a better solution than what is currently in game, but I think FFG should at least put an end to engine tech double rams by ruling that suffering damage from overlapping a ship or obstacle prevents the ship from taking any further actions.

So e.g. Demo could not shoot after ramming, engine techs could not ram twice, and Flight commander could not activate squads after moving if the ship rams/overlaps, FCT would not work after ram etc..

ET gets exhausted if you overlap something. Problem solved.

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 4:41 AM, Green Knight said:

Sorry, but this is just a sad development in armada. Don't get me wrong though: it's entirely legit, and it's great that this abomination is shown in all it's dark glory.

Ramming, effectively dealing unstoppable dice less damage AFTER moving, in a game built around shoot-then-move and custom dice.

Meh.

The Rogue One movie didn't help us see less intentional ramming.

9 minutes ago, Prince of Moskova said:

The Rogue One movie didn't help us see less intentional ramming.

But you didn't see 4 ET RBD Arquitens take down the MC75

2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

But you didn't see 4 ET RBD Arquitens take down the MC75

Cause the imps blew all those points on 3×ISD Vader and then put him in hyperspace till round 6.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

Cause the imps blew all those points on 3×ISD Vader and then put him in hyperspace till round 6.

But man, it did pay out, didn't it?

1 hour ago, pt106 said:

But man, it did pay out, didn't it?

Eh... Gonna be a tight MoV one way or the other. The rebels won Intel Sweep and got two ISD1's, but got nearly tabled...

best list to counter corvette spam is Konstantine VSD*3tractor beam listbacked up by fighter screen

5 hours ago, NairoD said:

best list to counter corvette spam is Konstantine VSD*3tractor beam listbacked up by fighter screen

That's awesome....till I need to kill ANYTHING else. Then this list falls apart IMHO. Don't get me wrong, I think the trip VSD would be fun to play, but not for me in a tourney. I think my opinion on Turtle lists is getting as low as ramtastic lists. I HATE loopholes, but they exist and we have to deal with it. But, these kind of things will turn players off to this game. mark my words.

I'm about ready to start playing "Slim Picken's" Style and just popping the top on my beer and just have'n at it. Working for weeks, even months, on a list and then showing up to a tourney to be rammed to death would be ultra mega frustrating. Maybe I should cross the pond, buy Gink a pint and discuss the "ramifications" of such a fleet.....

See what I did there?

I was squished to the ground by such list last tournament. My Raiders move with speed 1 or 2 at best. Konstantine pin me in one place and his fighters with rhymmer where toring my fleet apart. And what he couldnt stop with konstantine he slower with tractor beam...

I was able to kill one bomber and end game on round 5 with all my raiders dead (I field 4 raiders, 2 gonzanti and fighter screen)

I dont say that list i meet is no brainer but scenarios he choose was massacre for me (superior position, contested outpost and precision strike). Wichever I choose I was stoped in track (or speeded up by konstantine) and gunned down by fighters.

The problem with Ram Spam as far as I can see is that it has a very strong potential to get into 6/5 territory and become a spoiler list, but not a winning list. Yes, they will absolutely obliterate a dual MC80 list, but against another 'vette swarm, someone with more deployments than them, Luke Skywalker and his ability to ignore shields, or just Motti sittin' on some ISDs, it becomes increasingly hard to score kills through ramming without losing a significant portion of your fleet. And you have to be able to peel off if you don't think you can succeed without losing your own ships.

So this list is hardly an easy list to master, and while it has some excellent matchups in the current meta, perhaps like with Demolisher / Rhymerballs we use this archetype as a test for the lists we create. "What will I do if I run up against a 7 CR90B list?" either "How to I knock them into a close game" or "How do I punish them for bringing this unholy monstrosity". I'm sure we can all come up with some pretty excellent counters

So, I agree with Biggs. I'm always comparing this list mentally to my SW-7 variant (8*CR90B with SW-7 on all, 44 points a pop), and there is a very significant difference between the two in how the point values fall on the MoV cutoff lines.

The SW-7 variant can lose up to 4 corvettes and still pull a 9-2 with a tabling. Fully half the fleet. It can lose any 2 other than Rieekan and still pull 10-1. The ram version drops to 8-3 for losing 4, and may or may not fall on the 10-1/9-2 line for losing 2. Add to that the fact that you're virtually guaranteed to lose 2-3 in the best case scenario for the ramming fleet, and you're looking at pretty razor thin victories.

Certainly it has some good matchups, and its threat range is unmatched with the possible exception of Demo, but I don't see it doing much but serving as a spoiler in larger tourneys. This is a consistent winner that will do well in low-MoV tournaments, but if anybody brought a high-risk/high-reward build and did well with it, they'll outpace this fast.

Did either of you look at my battle reports.

Got two 8-3's and should have easily got a 9-2. These corvettes dont die as easily as you imagine.

And no Konstantine wont help you. He doesnt stop the first assault, and once engaged they arent looking to escape.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Did either of you look at my battle reports.

Got two 8-3's and should have easily got a 9-2. These corvettes dont die as easily as you imagine.

Yep. You consistently won with a fairly middling MoV, just like I said.

It's a good list, but you're also not going to run away with a major tournament with it, all else being equal. It's really great once you get to the elimination rounds, but it'll be tough to rise to the top of a 4- or 5-round tournament to get to those elimination rounds in the first place. Consistent 8-3's are top quarter material in my experience (I'd have to look at Shmitty's data to get an average, but that's where my rough wag puts it).

And yes, I know exactly how easily they die. Right about 1/round until your opponent is tabled, if you fly them well. And the tabling will most likely happen around turn 3, or maybe 4, assuming you managed to keep anything from escaping. Which puts you in 8-3 range, generally speaking.

All of this, of course, assuming the other guy didn't bring an XI7/LS/GT ISD2 or Liberty.

The two 4 round regionals I've been to both had the top spots finishing at lowish 30s. 33 in Maryland I believe and 32 in Georgia (June).

If you can consistently pull off 8 points, I think you have a good shot at a cut. Not guaranteed, but not anything to sneeze at either.

Edit: Current Regional Data seems to agree. Wave 2 seems to put about half (maybe more) of the first place winners of 4 rounders in the mid-30s range, around 36 or so. Possible conclusion: It's harder to pull off 9s and 10s consistently these days.

I'd classify 8-3 as a solid, decisive win. Now, getting 3 of those strung together over 3 games is 24 points. That's an absolutely solid performance. I think the problem is that what you really need is the ability to 10 in the right match-ups so that you can offset the 6s and 7s that inevitably happen. That becomes especially true in very large tournaments. For example, everyone I faced after the first round at GenCon had placed top-4 in a regional. That meant pretty good competition and a lot of non-10 results. That's pretty much what one should expect at Worlds or any other large competitive tournament.

I've never played higher than a regional level so I can't speak much there. I expect at Nationals and Worlds you'd see a higher than average scoring from the cuts.

I personally would like to see the Ram Jam score highly at World's because I honestly think the ET double ram is an unfun mechanic and I've wanted it changed since the Clonisher glory days.

I have literally NO problem with people using the mechanic as long as it's here. I built a very similar list that I was considering taking to MD but it would have taken too much scrounging and borrowing of cards and ships. I don't personally feel like saying something is unfun and should be changed, and also saying "While it's here I'm going to use it" is particularly hypocritical.

2 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I've never played higher than a regional level so I can't speak much there. I expect at Nationals and Worlds you'd see a higher than average scoring from the cuts.

In my experience, it is actually lower. We tend to see more 10-1/9-2 results at the regional level because you often get a pretty wide skill discrepancy there, and the best players will absolutely make sure they build a list that can put away someone making a mistake. But they'll also make sure they have tools to limit the opponent's MOV. A 4 round regional can somewhat replicate this because at least a couple of those rounds will be against the other strong players in the tournament.

Yeah, I agree with that on 4 rounders. Like I said, the two I've been to both had lowish 30s final scores. That's why I was saying consistent 8s isn't a bad bet for cut at those. I like 4 rounders a lot. Like you said, you end up matching your skill better by the end, unlike 3 rounders where you can really just get lucky.

So with Worlds last year I would say 8's have a chance to get you there. After 4 rounds I had 32 tournament points and I think I still made the cut by 2-3 points. Though I am not 100% on this. My scores were 6-5, 10-0, 10-0, 6-5. The last game I think I could have pushed it to a 7-4 or 8-3 win had we gone another round, but we went to time.

So like vergilius says 8's are solid, but I think it is getting a few 9's or 10's that put you in the running. It also pairs you in the top tables, and if you can win at the top tables (even marginally) it starts to propel you away from everyone else as you lower the top contenders scores and raise your own. This makes you more unreachable.

If I had done a 6-5 my first couple of games I doubt I would have made the finals even if I had gone 10-1 my last two games.

Here's another example (different player from the ones I referenced above).

It's now becoming acknowledged as a 'Thing', and when players see their peers succeed with something it tends to catch on fast.

On 28/02/2017 at 11:51 AM, ardneh42 said:

Round 1

My opponent named JD was running an ISD2, Arq, Gonz lifeboat with Screed and a Rhymer ball with one shuttle for relay.
He had a small bid and chose to go second, I picked his fighter ambush objective.
He placed his obstacles spread out along the edge of my deployment zone.
He started by deploying his ISD on the right side of the board with the Arq, and lifeboat screed on the left behind some asteroids.
I deployed Jaina’s Light and Rieekan on the far left knowing that he could fighter ambush Rieekan but then all his fighters would be out of the fight after that. Jaina was deployed over there to go hunt down Screed. All the remaining corvettes were arranged to go after the ISD and Arq. He deployed his fighters to go after Rieekan.
Turn 1 he managed to kill Rieekan, so I had to be very careful with how I flew my corvettes from there on out.
I lost a few corvettes, but managed to kill all of his ships by the end of turn 5. He picked up 3 tokens from the scenario for killing Rieekan.

8-3 Victory

After this round Chris and Angelo had 9, I had 8, Biggs had 7, and Weston had 6.

Round 2
My opponent was Biggs and he was running a MC80 Liberty, Pelta, 2 GR75s, and a bunch of red bombers (Xs and Es) along with some named Rebel Squads.
Biggs went first, and picked my Capture the VIP objective.
Biggs set up in the center of the board and I set up spread to the sides of his fleet.
He then used his Pelta and GR75s to act as ablative armor and protect his Liberty from the ramming corvettes.
Biggs started spamming Eng commands on turn 3 on his Liberty and since I had been unable to get to it early because of him protecting it I broke off the attack on turn 5.
I managed a 5 point MOV win for a 6-5 Victory.
Luckily the top table also went 6-5

After this round Chris had 15, I was tied with Angelo and Weston at 14 and Biggs had 12.

Round 3
My opponent was Angelo and he was running a MC80 Home One, a MC80 Liberty, 6 YT2400s and 2 YT1300s.
He picked to go second, and I picked his advanced gunnery objective knowing he would have to choose his Home One since his Liberty already had gunnery teams on it. This seemed to throw him for a loop that I would pick that objective, but I knew I would only be giving him a single round of double shooting at red range before I rammed him to death as long as everything went to plan.
He placed his Liberty in the middle of the board with all of his fighters and his Home One on the left side of the board. I placed my corvettes mainly stacked against his Home One to make sure I got the bonus 103 points, and two corvettes on the far right to chase his Liberty if it turned to help out Home One.
Turn two I got three double rams off on Home One, he turned the Liberty to help it out. I put My two corvettes on the right chasing right behind it, and turned two other corvettes into the nose of the Liberty to pin it in place.
First activation of turn three I ram Home One to death, and since he is unable to move his Liberty since my corvettes are blocking his movement we decide to call it with him being tabled and me losing the two corvettes that were blocking him.
10-1 Victory

I ended with 24, Chris ended in second with 23 or 22 with a MOV Tiebreaker, Biggs had 22, and Weston had 17 or 18.

All four of the top places attended the breakfast club, so we kept the streak going on the Armada breakfast.

The venue was great and the event was very smoothly run, also as a bonus on top of everything I won from FFG they also gave me a cookie cake for winning the event.

After I went out to dinner with Stasy and Weston and had a great dinner with some delicious beers while it started to snow outside.

From the thread:

I think a limiting factor may be that you have to buy 7 CR90s and at least 4 Arqs. But yeah, this thing is a beast.

Not to mention getting the ETs.

On 3/3/2017 at 0:44 AM, User1138 said:

I feel similar about it. I really like the creativity of making such a list but at the same point it is built around abusing a game mechanic that captures the "real" action of ramming rather poorly.

Now I don't want to start a dicussion about how to handle ramming in game because I do not have a better solution than what is currently in game, but I think FFG should at least put an end to engine tech double rams by ruling that suffering damage from overlapping a ship or obstacle prevents the ship from taking any further actions.

So e.g. Demo could not shoot after ramming, engine techs could not ram twice, and Flight commander could not activate squads after moving if the ship rams/overlaps, FCT would not work after ram etc..

Well ....... have a look again at the art of Garel's Honor title card coming out for the hammerhead. Seems to me FFG is keen on ramming being an anti-flotilla tool/tactic. (If it can ET, put dodonna on that there fleet and you can trying pulling for structural twice to OHKO.)