Just out of curiosity, either of you two play Diskwars? Especially Willange, since he knows how to make templates. I'm just about to begin playtesting on a project to complete the four stub factions that FFG never finished, but I have no clue how I'll eventually make the final product templates.

2 hours ago, Toenail said:

But she still needs an ability to be triggered with the [lore] result. Maybe just a simple gain 2 lore (so like the Necromancer drain).

We could do something like the Necromancer, but we could also, for example, let her gain lore when a unit retreats and let her commit lore results to cause retreats or something like that. Effectively, your lore result does get you a lore, but you also get a retreat out of it. However, it's different from the Necromancer and Greyhaven Battlemage in that the lore result does not directly produce lore. Just a thought.

And no, I don't play Diskwars. I was really close to picking up a used copy, but I have so many games as it is. Good luck with your project, though.

Yeah, I like the passive retreat ability for the sorceress. It seems in keeping with both Runewars and Runeage. Shouldn't be too crazy.

So she would have standard caster stats, then the [lore] retreat deal, plus a passive granting 1 lore if you cause retreats? Would it grant 1 per hex they retreat? 1 if they retreat? Does it not apply if the target takes damage instead of retreating?

I don't play diskwars, but I have considered giving it a go on TTS.

19 hours ago, Willange said:

Yeah, I like the passive retreat ability for the sorceress. It seems in keeping with both Runewars and Runeage. Shouldn't be too crazy.

So she would have standard caster stats, then the [lore] retreat deal, plus a passive granting 1 lore if you cause retreats? Would it grant 1 per hex they retreat? 1 if they retreat? Does it not apply if the target takes damage instead of retreating?

That sounds about right. I would say that each hex retreated would generate 1 lore, so if they suffer damage, she does not gain lore from retreats.

I'm not set on the ability names or the ability wording yet, but this is about what it would look like.

Storm Sorceress
Infantry, Caster, Ranged
Movement: 2
Combat Value: 3 (range 1-3)
Health: 3
[Lore] Majestic Presence: You may commit lore results rolled during combat rolls to cause retreats.
Word of Vaal: Gain 1 lore for each retreat the target unit resolves.

Other thoughts for the lore ability are Terrifying Presence, Display of Power, Terrifying Display, or Majestic Display. Thematically, I'm going for a magic user that makes her enemies cower before the magic she wields. In a lot of ways, this is inspired by Galadriel's transformation in The Lord of the Rings movies.

You could call the lore ability, "Empyrean Thunder" or something since the Empyrean realm is where the elves believe they come from and they are storm sorceresses so thunder makes sense to cause retreats.

8 hours ago, Willange said:

You could call the lore ability, "Empyrean Thunder" or something since the Empyrean realm is where the elves believe they come from and they are storm sorceresses so thunder makes sense to cause retreats.

Oooh, I like that! I like that a lot!

If I get time I'll go ahead and make the unit/deployment cards for the units we've done so far this weekend. So now I think we should do our first draft of the big 'ent' guy.

I like the idea of him playing off forests and being speed 1 with maybe a way to increase that. Probably like 4 dice with hp depending on abilities. I know before we had some fairly disparate ideas on what he would do, but honestly I wasn't in love with any of them including my own. Do we have any new ideas for him? Or did you guys really like the other ability sets?

8 hours ago, Willange said:

If I get time I'll go ahead and make the unit/deployment cards for the units we've done so far this weekend. So now I think we should do our first draft of the big 'ent' guy.

I like the idea of him playing off forests and being speed 1 with maybe a way to increase that. Probably like 4 dice with hp depending on abilities. I know before we had some fairly disparate ideas on what he would do, but honestly I wasn't in love with any of them including my own. Do we have any new ideas for him? Or did you guys really like the other ability sets?

Perhaps he could be 1 speed, but forest don't spend movement points? And I did like the idea of him having Reach, and I believe someone came up with some sort of cool crushing blow ability, can't remember who though.

How about if it had something like the obscene where it is speed one but gets an extra move point if the second move brings it into/out of forest hex?

2 hours ago, Thulsadume said:

How about if it had something like the obscene where it is speed one but gets an extra move point if the second move brings it into/out of forest hex?

I like the idea, but according to the rules, if it enters a forest hex, it must end its movement. But that simply means we would add a line that says, "Forest hexes do not restrict this unit's movement." That actually becomes a significant line because it means it can retreat through forest hexes without taking damage. I think that's a pretty neat ability.

Another idea (though this one doesn't solve the movement issue) is that this unit is considered supported if it occupies a forest hex or would retreat into a forest hex."

I like the idea of an extra move if you go into or out of a forest (with no restriction as Budgernaut mentioned). I would add that it should be a "once per phase" type of ability just because then he can't just go 5 spaces through a random contiguous grouping of trees.

I hadn't originally thought of being able to retreat through woods but that is an excellent benefit. I agree with Willange about once per phase. No ents with rocket skates lol. How do you guys feel about it having immovable? I know there has been some discussion of wanting to stay away from abilities that are already possessed by current units but thematically it does seem right to have a giant tree man "rooted" in place in some way. I also kind of like the idea of a tree man striding across rivers. What if it had the extra movement forest ability and then a separate nature walk ability that just said forest and water hexes do not restrict this unit's movement? Would that make him too mobile? Just spit balling.

8 hours ago, Thulsadume said:

I hadn't originally thought of being able to retreat through woods but that is an excellent benefit. I agree with Willange about once per phase. No ents with rocket skates lol. How do you guys feel about it having immovable? I know there has been some discussion of wanting to stay away from abilities that are already possessed by current units but thematically it does seem right to have a giant tree man "rooted" in place in some way. I also kind of like the idea of a tree man striding across rivers. What if it had the extra movement forest ability and then a separate nature walk ability that just said forest and water hexes do not restrict this unit's movement? Would that make him too mobile? Just spit balling.

I think Immovable is very thematic for the Forest Guardian. Both Rune Golems and Chaos Lords have Immovable, so it seems like a common enough ability that it wouldn't bother me if the Forest Guardian had it. My suggestion to make Forest Guardians supported if they occupy a forest hex or would retreat into a forest hex is to give them a sense of immovable while being something different. Whether we go with Immovable and let them retreat through forests or make them supported by forests, I'm okay with either one. I suppose the one we choose comes down to the rest of the abilities.

Here's a draft of the forest movement ability: "Once per turn, before or after your move step, this unit may move into or out of a forest hex."

This draft doesn't allow for movement into rivers, though, and I think moving into rivers would be really cool.

Oh, and I think it should definitely have the Massive ability. But if it had Massive and a nature-walk ability and the forest movement, that's pretty much all of its abilities right there unless we create an ability that fuses forest movement with nature walk. Assuming, of course, that we do want it to walk through water.

What if you made the Forest Guardian 1 move, but then gave it essentially the Shortcut ability from Mountain Giant? That way your opponent would be afraid to get near forests for fear of the Guardian jumping out at them!

1 hour ago, Toenail said:

What if you made the Forest Guardian 1 move, but then gave it essentially the Shortcut ability from Mountain Giant? That way your opponent would be afraid to get near forests for fear of the Guardian jumping out at them!

I like it!

"Forest hexes do not end this unit's movement. If this unit enters a forest hex, it may move one additional hex."

14 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I like it!

"Forest hexes do not end this unit's movement. If this unit enters a forest hex, it may move one additional hex."

Sounds good to me. We could still add river and hill related powers and have this guy be pretty balanced I think.

So add to the forest part, "This unit may also move onto river hexes. When this unit battles from a hill hex, it rolls 1 additional die." (or something like that) Then just give it 5 hp and I think that could be a good first draft.

So are we including Immovable or not? If not, it looks something like this:

Forest Guardian
Melee - Legend
Movement Value: 1
Combat Value: 4
Health: 6
Ability : Forest hexes do not end this unit's movement. If this unit enters a forest hex during your move step, it may move one additional hex. This unit may move into and occupy river hexes. While this unit occupies a hill hex, it rolls 1 additional combat die."
Massive : This unit cannot move into or occupy building hexes.

I gave it 6 health to make sure it has 11 stat points like the other 8-cost legend units.

Now that I see it written out, the hill thing seems really out of place and probably too good. Probably scrap that part. If we add immovable, the I would argue that it needs to only have 5 hp. I think the movement abilities are better than the terrifying ability of the Chaos Lord. I get that they have 11 stat lines, but if the abilities are too strong them perhaps deviation is required? Not sure on this.

An idea instead of Immovable though, what if forest hexes also did reduce the Forest Guardian's attack dice at all? I love the idea of him being in them and I just know that I often won't want to be if I get half as many dice. It seems wrong that berserkers do more damage into a forest than a forest guardian does. So then he would get pretty much exactly what you have with just the forest and river parts (no hill I think) plus no combat penalties in forest and then massive. If we do throw immovable in there on top of the combat bonus then he maybe needs to be 5 hp though really that is really a question of "are all these terrain abilities better than terrifying?" Am I making sense here?

Yes, you are making sense. I considered leaving it at 5 health, but because its abilities were so dependent on specific terrain, I felt justified in giving it the stat sum of 11.

I'm okay with not having Immovable 1 because the current iteration allows it to retreat through forests without stopping, which is pretty cool. If it had Immovable, that aspect would be lost.

I do think it needs an ability that negates terrain penalties of forest hexes. That was an oversight.

Personally, I find the Chaos Lord's Terrify ability to be really good. I always try to find a way to pin the target so that a heroic result yields 2 damage. This unit has slightly more mobility, but slightly weaker offense, except in the forest. I'm inclined to keep this version at 6 health. If we come up with a must-have offensive ability, I could see it dropping to 5, but this thing just seems so "meh" right now that losing the health is a big deal, in my opinion.

Forest Guardian
Melee - Legend
Movement Value: 1
Combat Value: 4
Health: 6
Forest Stalker : Forest hexes do not end this unit's movement. If this unit enters a forest hex during your move step, it may move one additional hex. Forest hexes do not reduce the number of dice this unit rolls during combat.
Massive : This unit cannot move into or occupy building hexes.

I don't know ... it seems to rely on forest hexes quite a bit. I thought we wanted to try to avoid that. Then again, if any Latari unit should gain bonuses from forests, this one should.

Well, it is a Forest Guardian after all. As long as we avoid that in the other units, and make the other legend not too generic, we should be fine. And since it has one move (and has Guardian in the name), it will likely stay on your half of the field all game, meaning that having a forest is easier. Plus, with the way the ability works, even just one forest hex can give it impressive range.

I agree that we don't want him to be too dependent on forests. I think for this 1 unit it's kind of okay because it would be sorta silly if not.

I know my vision of choosing to bring in a Forest Guardian would be that you bring him if there are at least some forests around. It doesn't have to be crazy, but if the map is all hills then I definitely go with other units. So he should be good in the forests, but still be a worthwhile pick even if he's only around forests some of the time.

Soooo, I have a couple sort of random ideas for this guy. I would only use 1 (if any) of these:

• Some form of taunt (since he's a guardian and can use nature to close off routes). Perhaps, "Units adjacent to this unit must target this unit".
• Another lore spender such as, "[lore]: spend 1 lore to heal 1 point of damage on this unit." (effective lore cost of 2).
• Lore generation, theme would be growth. Not sure on exactly what you would do here.
• Some form of cool, special attack, "Rage of the forest: Instead of attack normally, you may attack up to 2 adjacent enemy units with 3 dice each. Roll and resolve each attack separately. You cannot cause retreats with this attack, nor can you be countered after either attack."
• A thematic attack enhancer such as, "Crush: If the target of this attack does not retreat, deal 1 additional damage."

Those are just some random ideas I came up with in the last hour or so, so these are by no means perfect. But if you guys want we could take one of these ideas and run with it.

That rage attack could be a cool lore card.

I do like Crush as a heroic ability.

On 2/16/2017 at 4:17 PM, Willange said:

Some form of cool, special attack, "Rage of the forest: Instead of attack normally, you may attack up to 2 adjacent enemy units with 3 dice each. Roll and resolve each attack separately. You cannot cause retreats with this attack, nor can you be countered after either attack."

I agree with @Toenail that this would make a really neat lore card. I can't convey in text how excited this ability makes me. It's really neat! But I was thinking, since you called it "Rage of the Forest." What if it let you make an attack with a forest hex adjacent to your Forest Guardian in addition to your Forest Guardian's attack? It's like he influences the trees to come alive and attack. I think it could be really neat! Again, though, this would be good for a lore card, rather than a constant unit ability.

On 2/16/2017 at 4:17 PM, Willange said:

lore spender such as, "[lore]: spend 1 lore to heal 1 point of damage on this unit." (effective lore cost of 2).

Given that this unit is going to hang out in Forests as much as possible, it already has an amazing defense against most units. I hesitate to give it any sort of healing ability. Still, we could give it some ability that uses lore. Just spitballing here, but "Take Root: When this unit would be forced to retreat, it may spend 1 (2?) lore to ignore each retreat."

On 2/16/2017 at 4:17 PM, Willange said:

Lore generation, theme would be growth. Not sure on exactly what you would do here.

I agree, this one is tough to design an ability for. Here are a few ideas off the top of my head:

"Whisper of the Woods: When an enemy unit enters a forest hex, gain 1 lore." The idea is very abstract. Basically, the forest creatures/plants are informing the Guardian of an evil presence in the forest which allows it to gain lore ... somehow? I'm not a huge fan, but thought it might be worth sharing anyway.

"Sprout: At the end of your move step, gain one lore if this unit was ordered and occupies a clear hex." So while forests do great things for the Forest Guardian, there is an benefit to not being in a forest as well. The theme is basically that it starts growing plants if there are no other plants around, and this growth contributes to the magic of the Elves.

On 2/16/2017 at 4:17 PM, Willange said:

A thematic attack enhancer such as, "Crush: If the target of this attack does not retreat, deal 1 additional damage."

This is solid. It hearkens back to the Citadel Lancer, but is executed in a sufficiently different way. Plus, it's harder for your opponent to play around it. Pinning a target between a Forest Guardian and another Elf can be brutal! You have 50% chance of damage on 4 dice and the target is guaranteed to not retreat, meaning a minimum of 1 damage, average of 3 damage, and max of 5 damage. An average of 3 damage means that it's going to destroy pretty much anything it pins. Thinking from the perspective of the opponent, how do you take down the Forest Guardian? If you walk up to it with a melee character, you're not going to take it out easily, will probably be countered, and then the Elves can retaliate by moving someone behind your unit so that the Guardian can crush you outright. On top of that, if it hangs out in forests, then the average enemy turn will order 3 units and if each of them attacks the Forest Guardian, you're typically only rolling 6 dice. You'd have to score a hit on each die to make sure the Forest Guardian gets destroyed in one round. With an ability like this, the Forest Guardian will have to draw a lot of agro, or the enemy will basically have to flee from it to keep from getting crushed. This ability is strong enough that I would consider decreasing it's health to 5 if we used it. Strategy-wise, it seems like you want to get ranged attacks against the Forest Guardian instead of engaging it in Melee. If it is in a forest, you don't lose any dice from archer attacks, can't get countered, and can keep away from it because of its speed of 1.

Here's an idea for an adjustment that brings this ability down a bit, but does complicate things slightly: "Crush: If you rolled at least one [morale] result during the combat but the target did not retreat, cause 1 damage." If my math is right, then in the situation above, there would be about a 50% chance of triggering Crush instead of a 100% chance.

EDIT: If we go with Toenail's idea of making it a heroic ability instead, I think it's still roughly 50% for the above situation, so I think either method works. Except that you don't know if the target has retreated or not at the time you commit dice, so we'd have to mess with the wording to some. I'll have to think about that more.

Yeah, I think you would approach it in largely the same way you approach a chaos lord. Either of those solutions is fine with me. Heroic is probably easier in terms of wording, but it's nit super important either way I don't think.

Will you guys be doing a full production of these rules, with downloads for printing cards?