For me and my 40K playing friends the big attraction of this game is getting to play in the era of the Horuse Heresy. To be able to defend the imperial palace (or attack it) is something we've only been able to talk about up to this point. As for the card mechanic, I quite enjoyed the way Warrior Knights played (which is in itself a remake of a GW game) so I remain optimistic.
What is the attraction for WH40K players?
Cards..... Dice..... What's the difference. Just a different way to determine the outcome of an event with X probability. Don't see why anybody with even a rudamentary understanding of math should have a problem using one system over another.
Nematode said:
Cards..... Dice..... What's the difference.
The noises they make when used
. Also the feel, the shaking, the anticipation as the roll slows down.
@GreyLord
I think none of the game systems you mentioned above can capture the feeling of Horus Heresy, which is one of (if not the) most important events in the 40k universe. As for your friends laughing the card-based combat system... show, do not tell. I'm not sure they will be able to resist an awesome map of Terra with plastic fortresses and pile of plastic soldiers (albeit small ones). I know I won't, and I'm a 40k player.
Are dice really that cool that you would take the time to mock a game that doesn't use dice?
Is a card that contains the same information as a die PLUS small background blurbs and fluff really that much worse than a die?
Seems a bit childish to me. If it works, it works. Does the Magic: The Gathering crowd laugh at the guys playing 40K because they look like they are playing yahtzee all night long?
It doesn't seem like much of a reason to stay away from a game.
GreyLord said:
redsimon said:
GreyLord said:
I thought one of the things FFG would do with their license would be to get a HUGE amount of sales by combining FFG boardgamers and fans of GW. I see that they COULD with this game, and attract all the WH40K players. I play WH40K, I am also perhaps even more likely to buy an FFG game since, if you note, I am also a big FFG fan.
However, it doesn't appear I will buy this game. I don't plan on getting laughed out of my WH40K group, and the mention of card combat sort of...not only had them not willing to play, but laughing at the idea?
Are you sure you and they are 40k players? Seriously, most 40k players are happy that a company which doesn't show you the middle finger all the time makes a large board game of the siege of terra with miniatures. They don't care if it involves cards or not. That's why my fellow gamers will all be willing to play when I present my copy to them in a few months.
Apparantly a bigger 40K player then you, seeing I actually DON'T feel a certain company ever gives us the middle finger, though I think some fans are a little disgruntled about not getting away with piracy and copyright infringements.
As for money, it's not a factor in deciding whether I play the game or not.
However, I think for the large scale wars we would play Epic as the game of choice, or for fantasy, warmaster, as the large number of troops would be easier to handle.
I currently have 5 armies that of Space Marines (like everyone else), Space Wolves being my focus, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Orcs, and tyranids. I have remnants of 3rd edition Witch Hunters/Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard. My becoming a fan of FFG has actually SAVED me money on gaming...believe it or not. It's also saved me on time as I don't paint the minis in the games or even paint anymore, nor do I have to put the pieces together.
When I got Space Hulk I just played others copies, instead of my own, I had forgotten the pain it is to put together and paint your minis after being spoiled by FFG. I suppose HH appeals to me slightly perhaps because of this, I am slowly inching away from the Miniature Wargame hobby and becoming a fast Boardgame Geek Fanatic. It's easier to grab a game and go, and also easier to play with my kids (kids aren't into WH40K, or any of the typical GW games).
Unfortunately, the rest of the GW crowd is NOT following my lead, and are as hardcore into 40K as ever.
I do have others I game with, but they are either A&A (AT to a degree) fanatics, train game fanatics, or Eurogame fanatics. So, it's a little tough getting the crossover for this one. Closest would be the A&A fanatics, but they too a person hated Starcraft (I like Starcraft, but hated the actual combat portion, planning the combat was fun, as well as the strategizing, if I had liked the actual combat more, it may have been one of my all time favorite games), and I think in some ways they may be more fanatical about dice than the WH40K crowd. That said, they do like a LOT of the FFG games I bring, but normally they are the ones like WotR or Tannhauser.
Sounds to me like you have come to a point and realised that you are throwing away way to much to GW on an overpriced and unbalanced game system, that lacks a lot of real tactical prowess. Your "friends" might laugh at you now for playing a board game but i can guarantee most of them would fail miserably at any one of the strategic board games out on the market these days. Best thing you can do is find a local group that is into board gaming and get in with them. At the very least the social aspect of playing with them will be more fun than the annoyance playing GW tabletop games has become.
Baenre said:
GreyLord said:
Sounds to me like you have come to a point and realised that you are throwing away way to much to GW on an overpriced and unbalanced game system, that lacks a lot of real tactical prowess. Your "friends" might laugh at you now for playing a board game but i can guarantee most of them would fail miserably at any one of the strategic board games out on the market these days. Best thing you can do is find a local group that is into board gaming and get in with them. At the very least the social aspect of playing with them will be more fun than the annoyance playing GW tabletop games has become.
I suppose it depends entirely on why a person plays 40K. I like the setting. I enjoy tabletop wargames where the actual physical properties of the models, terrain and units affect gameplay. I really enjoy the hobby aspect of building my own totally unique army. I have some truely bad-ass modified models in my army with (to the best of my ability) beautiful paint jobs.
How well does my army play on the table? Well, not terrible, but not so well against a player who min maxes the rules to get the most laser cannons on the table humanly possible. Honestly, that doesn't concern me much. Of the time I spend on my 40K hobby, I spend at least 95% of my time modeling and painting, but only 5% of my time playing. I guess that's just where I get my enjoyment. Some people make perfect scale replicas of planes or ships. I make my pretend army of plastic chaos space marines and demons. The added bonus of my little toys is that rules exist so I can go to the local game store and pull out my toy soldiers to participate in a battle.
So how does this relate to my interest on Horus Heresy? From what I have just said, I must sound like a bafoon who cares more about a fancy paint job than strategy. Well, in the case of 40K, yes. I am currently on my third (or is it forth) codex for my army. Each new edition seems to marginalize formerly powerful units and highlight new powerful units to take their place by adjusting point cost or stats etc (can't imagine why GW may do this? $$). Every time this type of change happens, I look at my squad of ten *insert name here* units that have each already received an 8 hour (which I would consider a rushed) paint job, and realizing they are not as powerful as they once were, field them anyway. The game is still fun to me.
When we look at a board game like Horus Heresy, every player has the units and rules that came out of the box to work with -- nothing more and nothing less. It is an exercise in pure strategy with some random variables (dice or cards makes no difference) thrown in. The setting and mythos are still there from 40K. The same types of units are there which is good from a familiarity standpoint. I don't personally have much problem shifting gears between playing my army of pretty but tactically challenged 40K space marines and playing a 'serious' stragetgic board game. I enjoy each activity for its own merits. In fact, I consider myself quit competative at strategic board games despite my proclivity for playing 40K.
I agree completely Nematode with your post. I am in much the same boat as far as 40K goes. I love the models and the modelling aspect. The game is fun but not very deep.
I like all kinds of games and I wouldn't immediately pass judgement on any game just because of what it uses for one mechanic in the game. They must all be looked at as a whole.
I hope that Horus Heresy turns out very nice (I have already pre-ordered it). I would like to think that it can be a direct link between my obsessions of boardgaming and tabletop wargaming.
Although, like others in this thread, I am moving more towards FFG (and other board games) and moving away from GW's Warhammer games.
I have to say now, it's pretty much confirmed none of those playing WH40K will be playing this apparantly.
On the GOOD news, I REALLY like the card combat from what they just presented. THIS is the type of card combat I've been saying they should invest in from the very beginning with their "card fetish" that they've been having. Something a lot more similar to the tactical card combat games others have, and which is where the innovation of card mechanics in boardgames has been heading instead of something they made up.
So with that, with those that I board game and play games in general with, I think with deeper card combat (looks to be more tactical and involved...which = MORE fun than starcraft or other games) I think it could be a BIG win with those people meaning even if they aren't into WH40K or Warhammer at all, they probably will be more interested in actually trying out the game.
GreyLord said:
I have to say now, it's pretty much confirmed none of those playing WH40K will be playing this apparantly.
Heh? Not only have I been playing 40k for over 20 years I also like the card style combat mechanics of other FFG games such as MEQ. I dont see what all the fuss is. Its the Horus Heresy after all. Even if the game sucked I would play it. I dont seem to recall the GW counter based game being all the great but I admit it has been many years since I played it.
IraShaine1972 said:
GreyLord said:
I have to say now, it's pretty much confirmed none of those playing WH40K will be playing this apparantly.
Heh? Not only have I been playing 40k for over 20 years I also like the card style combat mechanics of other FFG games such as MEQ. I dont see what all the fuss is. Its the Horus Heresy after all. Even if the game sucked I would play it. I dont seem to recall the GW counter based game being all the great but I admit it has been many years since I played it.
I meant those that I've been playing Warhammer 40K with, none of them have any interest in it anymore except for me. Ironically one of those guys actually had the original series and brought it for people to test out, but he's not interested in the remake either, and the cards especially. I currently have the Battle for Armageddon on loan from him though.
I, however, unlike them, after reading how the card dynamics are going to work, have gone from doubtful, to absolutely must buy now. I know these mechanics may not appeal to many WH40K players, but I know many who don't care for WH, but like many of the other types of card games, actually may be able to be convinced to play a game like this, and it sounds pretty great to me.
Don't give up hope yet. I'm serious. Just unfold the game board in front of everyone, pour in the plastic cities and miniatures, and I'm pretty sure someone will be willing to try. You only need 1 victim, and the others will succumb. It's Horus Heresy man, any 40k player'd salivate at the chance to kill Horus or the Emperor. Even with cards
.
Just to weigh in here: My friends and I all play 40k and Warhammer Fantasy, and so are used to rolling a lot of dice. However, to us, card battles are actually MORE appealing and a welcome change.
The reason is simply this: it reduces the randomness. In Warhammer, you can have the best strategy in the world and if your luck is off and you roll a lot of 1s, you still lose. That randomness factor, while a part of the game, actually takes away from the effectiveness of strategy because you can't control it. I know many of my friends, while enjoying Warhammer and still playing it and liking it, feel this is a shortcoming with the game: whether you win or lose should primarily be determined by your generalship, not by how some little plastic cubes randomly fall on the table.
Card battle mitigates this factor somewhat. There is still some randomness: you have to draw a hand from the deck. But the sense of strategy is heightened because at least you get a number of cards, and you get to choose how and what order to play them in: even with a relatively bad draw, someone who is thinking ahead and planning has a chance of winning against his opponent. (Not to mention a good strategist will often have a bigger hand in HH to begin with, as he will be placing his units in better ways to ensure he outnumbers if he can). There's very little chance of someone carefully arranging their forces, going into battle with awesome placement at the end of a long strategic series of movements, and still losing due to rolling a bunch of 1s.
This is the exact reason why a large portion of my gaming group has started playing a certain new miniature skirmish game called Malifaux which uses cards instead of dice recently... (although we still play Warhammer as well).
In summation: The card battles in Horus Heresy are an attraction for my WH group, not a put-off, because card battles generally allow strategy to determine the winner more than random chance.
Lemme first just say- I am a 40k player, not fanatically, but I do play.
I think the appeal of the board game is simply the idea of doing Horus's siege on Terra. If your really into 40k...ADMIT IT, that's cool. Even though almost EVERYTHING about this game is not 40k, but the name. The whole idea of "Can I succeed where Horus didn't?" is a seller. People who enjoy history, often enjoy wargames. This shouldnt be much different then 40k players liking HH.
I would like to say the card mechanics vs dice argument means there's less chance and more skill involved to win... but really, thats not the case. A good 40k player knows how to stack the dice to make his/her chance at success easier. The card system is just a different game mechanics. Don't fear the cards!
HH is simply a different kind of expression of how to enjoy the 40k universe, just like reading a 40k novel. Players read the 40k novels, enjoy them, and don't roll a single die. The same goes here. Play HH for what it is...Horus's siege of Terra!
You're not FFG's market.
GreyLord said:
I meant those that I've been playing Warhammer 40K with, none of them have any interest in it anymore except for me. Ironically one of those guys actually had the original series and brought it for people to test out, but he's not interested in the remake either, and the cards especially. I currently have the Battle for Armageddon on loan from him though.
I, however, unlike them, after reading how the card dynamics are going to work, have gone from doubtful, to absolutely must buy now. I know these mechanics may not appeal to many WH40K players, but I know many who don't care for WH, but like many of the other types of card games, actually may be able to be convinced to play a game like this, and it sounds pretty great to me.
Hm, those people are completely different to the 40k players I know. Alone for the theme they will be eager to try it out, regardless of the mechanics.
paradiddlebob said:
You're not FFG's market.
...and that's quite a feat, you should be proud of that
What is the attraction for WH40k players?
Horus Heresy.....do I need to say more
Ephraim said:
Lemme first just say- I am a 40k player, not fanatically, but I do play.
I think the appeal of the board game is simply the idea of doing Horus's siege on Terra. If your really into 40k...ADMIT IT, that's cool. Even though almost EVERYTHING about this game is not 40k, but the name. The whole idea of "Can I succeed where Horus didn't?" is a seller. People who enjoy history, often enjoy wargames. This shouldnt be much different then 40k players liking HH.
I would like to say the card mechanics vs dice argument means there's less chance and more skill involved to win... but really, thats not the case. A good 40k player knows how to stack the dice to make his/her chance at success easier. The card system is just a different game mechanics. Don't fear the cards!
HH is simply a different kind of expression of how to enjoy the 40k universe, just like reading a 40k novel. Players read the 40k novels, enjoy them, and don't roll a single die. The same goes here. Play HH for what it is...Horus's siege of Terra!
Actually for people that just basically SUCK at dice rolling it is an issue. I have met many people in the passed 25 or so years in the TT gaming genre who just are poor dice rollers or don't enjoy the heavy math involved with stacking the right numbers to get the best odds of success. Comabt card system started to remove those issues as they have progressed along. Just look at Malifaux right now and how much better it is as well as affordable versus the larger TT gaming titles.
This game wouldn't be half as fun with dice as it is playing with the card system. Not only is there the more traditional positioning strategy involved. There's also a deep stratgey on placing orders and when or when not to bury other players orders. Any serious TT gamer should enjoy this game for the depth alone and the hobby players have a set of miniatures to mess with. It's an all around win/win for TT gamers and BG players IMO.
Hi all. (My first post!)
As a greybeard with (too) many gaming years under my ever expanding belt I just don't have the time (or the steady hand) to paint up endless ranks of miniatures. I've managed one squad of Marines in lhe last ++ transmission interrupted ++ years! The appeal of FFG's take on the 40K line is that you dont need to be a master craftsman to have a decent looking product on the table. Even Space Hulk looks passable with the Terminators and the foul Xenos just off the sprue. Did FFG have much input into the design and production of this??? I think so!!!
The other thing that draws me to FFG is the more "mature" nature of the products on offer. I know the 40K universe is a dark and grim place indeed however the gaming tables in GW Hobby Centres are surrounded by younglings! HH (and FFG) seem to cater to an older demographic, photos of the event centre back this up, I think.
Finally, I have been playing out the events of the HH in my mind all through Secondary School, University (twice) and back into school as a Teacher. This board game offers a chance to play out some historic battles with something a little more appealing than a cardboard counter.
I hope the collaboration between GW and FFG continues and if the quality of the game production continues then I'll be a happy (if older and chubbier) gamer.
P.S. Please (x100) can we have "miniatures" for The Emperor and Horus???