I thought one of the things FFG would do with their license would be to get a HUGE amount of sales by combining FFG boardgamers and fans of GW. I see that they COULD with this game, and attract all the WH40K players. I play WH40K, I am also perhaps even more likely to buy an FFG game since, if you note, I am also a big FFG fan.

However, it doesn't appear I will buy this game. I don't plan on getting laughed out of my WH40K group, and the mention of card combat sort of...not only had them not willing to play, but laughing at the idea?

I figure this could be FFG's biggest seller yet, seriously, if it was done right, by combining audiences. But not only does the idea of the card combat turn me off (though I would at least be willing to try the game), the fact that I'll get laughed at for it (though I normally don't mind about what other people think, this is the people I play games with too) means that right now...this is a no go.

WH40K players use dice. That's just how it works. However, they didn't seem to mind WK's when we played it. I do have a few others that play WH40K as well as boardgames that would play this probably, but the WH40K guys don't seem that anxious about the card aspect.

This is ironic as the original needed a refix, however I think that the core idea of combat should have been retained, or maybe dual rulesets for those WH40K players. Even more ironic, I feel this period and theme of the game appeals to GW and WH40K players MORE than the typical FFG player.

But the combat is a big sticking point apparantly. Even I have problems with it and I'm more willing to play FFG games.

Is FFG actually going to try to rake in sales, or is they just content for the typical FFG fan to buy it with a little more sales from those of us that are both FFG fans and GW fans (note I've also gotten WK, and CM).

If they truly want to gain the GW fans and WH40K fans, what are they going to do to offset the bad attitude that many get (and once again, may I point out that WH40K is a MINIS [which they already state they will have a LOT of different minis or pieces in the game so that's good] and uses a LOT OF DICE THROWING) in regards to the card combat?

I am looking for what they are going to use as a counterbalance to actually attract instead of push potential sales away. WH40K players aren't all about the "Evolution of FFG's game design" though they may be favorable towards GW's latest edition, or if older edition players, at least towards LOTS of DICE and Minis. However, the minis don't seem to be countering the card combat take thus far.

Which is where my question comes about. Please, appeal to me FFG? And I'm already a fan so it shouldn't be as hard.

And then, appeal to my friends.

If your friends are already laughing at this game before it is even out that probably says more about your friends than the game. I'm leery of the diceless combat because of that making the game harder to play solo. But if the mechanic works for 2 player, then there's no reason to write it off just because you can't roll 30 dice across the table.

Torbal said:

Yeah, those laughing were not boardgamers, but those I thought would be in the key dynamic of what FFG would be shooting for. Not a high point I may add, nor comfortable.

I suppose if I am convinced I should have one other person that will play it, and it does only require two. However I thought it may be a fun thing to have for a night or two at a WH40K or other gathering with sort of a tournament type thing. Apparantly my idea is "why would we want to play cards instead of roll dice and clash armies" type of idea. I think these guys also played Space Hulk a couple times and even had multiple squads with a couple copies.

On the otherhand they played at a shop that stiffed my preorder (they didn't take my money though, just said they didn't have enough copies after I had preordered two weeks prior, and didn't tell me till the day it came out which sent me scrambing to get a copy, lucky GW still had copies to buy online)...sooooo....not really any loyalty to the shop I suppose, though on the bright side since the shop also stocks FFG games, it means they probably won't sell out of HH games if everyone has that attitude, so it should be easily available should I decide to get it.

I don't understand why throwing dice is considered to be a core part of the game experience...

I remember playing and enjoying the 40K card game when it first came out, before it was tweaked and renamed Horus Heresy. That featured diceless combat (the cards had the dice rolls on them) and that was fine.

My one wargame that is diceless is Combat Commander: Europe, which again uses the cards to serve as dice rolls, and that is an integral part of the game play and works very well.

Hopefully you can find one or two others who will play this, because if it is at all like the original (and it seems to be), HH oozes theme you're actually maneuvering and fighting with the units that fought the "real" final battle for Terra.

GreyLord said:

Your friends aren't the sole representatives of GW game enthusiasts out there. Also, it is saying something about them if they laugh at a game that they, not only haven't tried yet, but hasn't even been released.

I have plenty of veteran 40K gaming friends who wouldn't judge the game on beforehand. Then again they play lots of games, not just 40K and I guess they have grown enough to expand their horizons. Perhaps you should advice your friends to do the same?

GreyLord said:

How so? I mean, boardgames are in general a lot easier to sell than miniatures and rulebooks for wargames of the magnitude of 40K. You don't need to constantly buy new books, glue, paint, brushes, miniatures and also rely on that your friends will do the same to play a boardgame. A boardgame can be played with just one set and doesn't demand the same kind of near decade-long commitment that wargames the scale of 40K tend to require.

So yeah, FFG COULD strive to create products intended for 40K gamers only, by releasing a plethora of minis and crap that has to be sold, to a customer demographic that are already extremely likely to be spending most of their dough on 40K minis and have very little room left in the budget to spend on other games... Or they could do the sensible thing and use the GW license to create games that pretty much ANYONE can get into with as little effort and demands as necessary. You feel me?

So,

boardgames, LCG's, and RPG's = extremely simple to get into, and if you don't feel like spending cash the equivalent of the financial debt of a small third world country to play, then you don't have to. Most of the basic sets are designed to be playable and enjoyable right out of the box.

Warhammer 40.000 = Requires you to somehow get ahold of a rulebook, relevant codex books, an army of miniatures that are heavily overprized already, glue, paints, brushes and on top of that you need to make sure you have someone to play with who also feel like buying all of these things.

Overall, the potential sales are much bigger for the former categories of games rather than the latter. Plus the fact that Games Workshop pretty much has a stranglehold on the tiny customer demographic that are still willing to throw away their money on GW's severely overprized (albeit pretty decent looking, but there are better minis out there) miniatures and other assorted 40K paraphernalia.

And yet I think GW makes more money then FFG by several times magnitude, which I would imagine would mean that there are plenty of WH40K people out there that love to get WH40K junk. The thing is whether someone can tap into that enthusiasm whilst also retaining a new audience.

For example, the Dawn of War series (and the first one is especially good at representing this) got a lot of enthusaism from players, but also appealed to a larger audience, spread quickly with press and word of mouth and was popular.

Many WH40K players also read the books, which shows that a crossover into another medium easily draws WH40K players into it without necessarily requiring them to buy more minis.

Space Hulk, though a limited run (though that run I think was a larger single run than most other game companies except Hasbro have in several runs) was also popular amongst 40K players.

I think HH could be, if advertised correctly. Obviously my bringing it to their attention is NOT the type of correct advertising. However, with as much money that GW makes, with a possible crossover audience with both Boardgamers AND hardcore 40K players, I don't see why FFG WOULDN'T be going for the 40K audience.

I mean, Space Hulk was popular and it would be categorized as a boardgame (and until GW made a lot of BGG fans unhappy, it was also in the top 10 list in BGG, so boardgamers liked it too DESPITE the lack of card combat and plethora of random dice and chit draws). In fact seeing the popularity of it at first, not just amongst hardcore boardgame players (BGG) but also among 40K players, I'd say that there's a DEFINATE way to appeal and sell to both audiences.

Along that lines, is it just my local shops, or is it among others...why isn't there that much buzz about this in the 40K shops? Is it because it's an FFG release and not a GW release?

GreyLord said:

Pretty much, yeah.

It was the same thing with Dark Heresy. It wasn't released by GW and thus was largely unheard of in the Games Workshop stores across the world (except for the RPG and Wargaming enthusiasts speaking about the game that is). Obviously the Dark Heresy has a large fanbase which consist of either current, former or potentional WH40K players as well (I'd estimate that more than 90 percent of everyone who came into contact with the 40K universe did so through the WH40K wargame, at least before Dawn of War was released).

So the results were as follows: you barely heard squat of any roleplaying games about WH40K in the Games Workshop and wargaming stores, and pretty much none of these stores even put products for the game up for sale. Yet the game took the RPG market by storm, and certain supplements for it have even recieved awards.

So FFG is obviously tapping into the WH40K gamer demographic already. They just do it with games and products that aren't really trying to compete with WH40K itself but rather present different formats. I mean, what would be the point of creating and launching a game that is pretty much the same thing as WH40K or rather extremely similar?

Also, I still maintain my position in that your friends' reactions to the rumours of this boardgame is not very representative of 40K players in general. Sure, there are single-minded fanatics out there, but most WH40K players enjoy many types of games and have no problem trying out new formats or games tied in to the same setting. I mean, the majority of 40K players have tried out Warhammer Fantasy, Mordheim, Necromunda and/or Battlefleet Gothic once or twice, and many are probably regular players of these spin-off games.

FFG are just making games within the same setting but in different formats than the ones GW sells. There's no use trying to invent the wheel all over again and try to challenge the current wheel-makers on the market, if you catch my drift?

Well I'm a huge fan of anything Warhammer 40k and quite frankly FFG has done a better job with the line then GW has in more recent years. I'm at a point now where I don't play the minitures game at all anymore.

Though I am a bit concerned about the absence of dice. The big issue for me is that most diceless games play like Euro games in which their is a definitive strategy that supercedes all others and their is an abstract sense to the game in which the theme is not relevant. Dice bring out the random factor ensure that even the most well laid plans can fail. I really disliked StarCraft for example as I found the game was too easy to break down mathmatically.

Randomness is a good thing in board games in doses and generally speaking its best used against the most action oriented places in a board game. It should never be sacraficed for tactics and strategy, but it should hinder a persons ability to count 100% on any given move or play. A good example is Twilight Imperium, the only place dice are used are during combat which while important isnt the most critical component, it forces players to consider their risks and their odds. Its the perfect example of dice used appropriatly.

In any case i wouldn't right a game off because it doesn't have dice but in my experiance war games without dice aren't ever as good as those that do have dice. Their is just an aspect to rolling dice that gives the game an extra element which players most consider but cannot control.

I had thought the attraction for 40K players might be, y'know, Space Marines and stuff. I don't associate sub-mechanics, or the substance of how a result is determined, with the core point of a game. For example I look at 40K stuff and think "massive baroque space war" not "that will, nay MUST, involve dice-rolling".

Stefan said:

Probably the same reason THAC0 was considered a core part of D&D before 3e (thankfully) got rid of it. Namely, geeks - particularly the rules lawyering types - get so attached to the mechanics they've played with and argued over in the past that they are generally unwilling to try something different in the same product line. Change is seen as a betrayal of all they have known and fought over.

I agree with you, in that the game experience is more important than historical mechanics. New mechanics should at least be tried before being ostracized, but not everyone is willing to give it that chance. Maybe they're afraid that they'll like the new mechanic and then feel inclined to spend money on it, or maybe they're just so entrenched in the older stuff that anything other than what they know is heresy. This is an attitude I've come to expect from certain elements of the gamer subculture, unfortunately.

I'm speaking generally of a new edition of something, which isn't quite what's happening here. This is a new company coming at a very old product from a completely different direction, but the basis remains the same. Players who are familiar with one mechanic are being confronted with something altogether different, and at least in the case of the OP's friends, they appear to be rejecting it at face value - indeed even before the product has been completely described or released.

The best solution, in my experience, is not to bother trying to convince those people. FFG has made their decisions for designing the product, now the OP needs to decide if it's worth buying, based on the assumption that a sizable number of his friends probably won't want to play it. That's a question only he can answer. Whether or not the product sells will ultimately decide if FFG made the right choice, so if you don't feel that they did then you should refrain from giving them your money for it.

Fist: Wh40k i nerfed right now. I began playing when 3ed was up and quited playing when 5ed came,family, job included but after some time when i had my free time back i was not willing to came back to it...

But as the uvinerse has great potential why not use it in more...playable way? FFG nerfs one game in a time but hey...GW nerfs every game this times....:/

And anyway to all you friends considering this game trachery, ask them if whey ever wanted to play battle of terra? (unless they have like 50k points in miniatures , including two warlord titants (and those who dont know WH40k minis thrust my its LOT of figures).

GreyLord said:

Are you sure you and they are 40k players? Seriously, most 40k players are happy that a company which doesn't show you the middle finger all the time makes a large board game of the siege of terra with miniatures. They don't care if it involves cards or not. That's why my fellow gamers will all be willing to play when I present my copy to them in a few months.

Been into Warhammer/Warhammer 40k for more than a decade,

i can assure you i'm drooling over the pc every day and waiting for more news on this release.

...so yes, i believe real geeks want it

Also, card based battles are not to be ashamed of.

The point is whether you enjoy the game or not, if the game's good, i don't care how it plays.

For me, the main sticking point is the price - but for most 40K players, a hundred dollars is hardly going to seem like being gouged at all.

Rakshasa said:

Touche.

redsimon said:

Apparantly a bigger 40K player then you, seeing I actually DON'T feel a certain company ever gives us the middle finger, though I think some fans are a little disgruntled about not getting away with piracy and copyright infringements.

As for money, it's not a factor in deciding whether I play the game or not.

However, I think for the large scale wars we would play Epic as the game of choice, or for fantasy, warmaster, as the large number of troops would be easier to handle.

I currently have 5 armies that of Space Marines (like everyone else), Space Wolves being my focus, Tau, Dark Eldar, and Orcs, and tyranids. I have remnants of 3rd edition Witch Hunters/Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard. My becoming a fan of FFG has actually SAVED me money on gaming...believe it or not. It's also saved me on time as I don't paint the minis in the games or even paint anymore, nor do I have to put the pieces together.

When I got Space Hulk I just played others copies, instead of my own, I had forgotten the pain it is to put together and paint your minis after being spoiled by FFG. I suppose HH appeals to me slightly perhaps because of this, I am slowly inching away from the Miniature Wargame hobby and becoming a fast Boardgame Geek Fanatic. It's easier to grab a game and go, and also easier to play with my kids (kids aren't into WH40K, or any of the typical GW games).

Unfortunately, the rest of the GW crowd is NOT following my lead, and are as hardcore into 40K as ever.

I do have others I game with, but they are either A&A (AT to a degree) fanatics, train game fanatics, or Eurogame fanatics. So, it's a little tough getting the crossover for this one. Closest would be the A&A fanatics, but they too a person hated Starcraft (I like Starcraft, but hated the actual combat portion, planning the combat was fun, as well as the strategizing, if I had liked the actual combat more, it may have been one of my all time favorite games), and I think in some ways they may be more fanatical about dice than the WH40K crowd. That said, they do like a LOT of the FFG games I bring, but normally they are the ones like WotR or Tannhauser.

You are not a bigger 40k fan if you like GW more than other fans. From your description it seems your group is heavily into the actual game and less so into the background.

For people who like the background a lot like me the idea to play this historical battle of 40k with great components is very welcome. We will see what the actual quality of the rules is.

The world of GW is full of infantile grown-ups. Expect whining about cards.

Stefan said:

I have to agree. If the game's mechanics work, what's the issue whether it's dice or cards that are used?

For me at least its about being able to play (even it its a reincarnation) of older GW games i can't get or have lost over the years. Such as space crusade, talisman and so on and so forth and just a love for the fluff and history of the 40k setting. But that just what i base my love or hate of a game on.

Space Crusade? Man, I hope I haven't missed something - like last year, when I only found out they'd re-done Space Hulk after it had sold out.

Rakshasa said:

Don't worry, there hasn't been a new edition of Space Crusade (at least, not yet.)

Edit: Unless I've missed something too =P

We kicked it old school last month with Space Crusade. Paint fumes (don't ask ) caused a change in the original plans, so SC got dug out.