You encounter Queen Mab while on the Wyrd Path, what happens?

"The fickle Queen Mab rips apart your destiny, weaving it into something tattered and mad before vanishing to the discard pile. Discard all of your Destiny cards and gain 1 Destiny. ..."

http://www.talismanwiki.com/Queen_Mab

"Draw a Destiny and put it on this card. You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path. ..."

http://www.talismanwiki.com/Wyrd_Path

It reminds me of spells that exist in the Genie etc but the wording is different here.

A quick answer would be much appreciated

You encounter Queen Mab while on the Wyrd Path, what happens?

"The fickle Queen Mab rips apart your destiny, weaving it into something tattered and mad before vanishing to the discard pile. Discard all of your Destiny cards and gain 1 Destiny. ..."

http://www.talismanwiki.com/Queen_Mab

"Draw a Destiny and put it on this card. You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path. ..."

http://www.talismanwiki.com/Wyrd_Path

It reminds me of spells that exist in the Genie etc but the wording is different here.

A quick answer would be much appreciated

Yep, it would be like the Spells on the Genie. The Wyrd Path itself has possession of the destiny, so Queen Mab would have no effect on that particular destiny card as she targets the Player and the destiny cards in their direct possession.

Queen Mab would not affect the wyrd path destiny, you count as having the destiny but you do not in fact possess it, as if you lost your path you would lose the destiny card as well.

Of course, we'll get the definitive answer once the Digital Edition expansion comes out.......

Queen Mab would not affect the wyrd path destiny, you count as having the destiny but you do not in fact possess it, as if you lost your path you would lose the destiny card as well.

Please, the only difference between "count as having" and "owning" is the words "same meaning" I would say you lose wyrd paths destiny but you keep wyrd path because it does not say you lose it when you lose the destiny. So in fact you need to leave the region to lose the path (or find some other way of losing the path).

Like you said Nioreh the wording with the Genie and its Spells is different not to add Spells act differently to destinies.

Now of course you could make a house rule saying that "having" and "owning" are different and that totally cool, I made the same with "draw" and "reveal" even though they really mean the same thing.

Uvatha, stating your OPINION and then saying of course you can house rule it to say whatever you non rule following people that disagree with me would like, doesn't make you right. Whenever your opinion is against the consensus you do this. It's super annoying. And youre wrong by the way

Uvatha, stating your OPINION and then saying of course you can house rule it to say whatever you non rule following people that disagree with me would like, doesn't make you right. Whenever your opinion is against the consensus you do this. It's super annoying. And youre wrong by the way

Just saying the correct way it should be played (yes in my opinion) and of course stating that one can always house rule it anyways? I do not find any major issue with saying that at all. That's me just giving my input about the rule just like you did.

Also stating one could "house rule" the rule is a good fix, if your are at odds with the wording of both cards. I think its good to state these easy fixes so players can solve the issue and then move on to having a fun enjoyable game (despite some people who find it "annoying"). Plus "super annoying" is a tad bit overrated don't you think?

Oh and your wrong too .

I have to change my view on this because of how the Valkyrie works with its "killed" keyword. So "count as having" and "owning" can have different meanings if "and only if" a card keys to it as a trigger effect - for example the "what happens when a character dies with Destinies" in the Woodlands rules:

" When a character is killed and the dead character’s
player draws a new character, all Destinies
owned by the dead character are passed to the new
character and may be used normally by him .

The keyword there being highlighted, of course this means little when it comes to the Wyrd Path because when your character dies you have to discard the Path thus discarding the Destiny anyway. But I think the important thing is the wording of the keyword.

Now with Queen Mab she says "Discard all of your Destiny cards and gain 1 Destiny. ..." The "owned" or "have" keyword is not used at all, instead we have "yours" so without a clear keyword that points to owned or Have "yours" must mean both in this regard, and due to no other clear rule that says otherwise. Thus "owned" and "count as having" mean the same thing with this ruling.

Now of course someone can argue that "yours" is a new keyword and thus it does not trigger either the "owned" or "have" thus the Destiny with Wyrd Path is kept. This is a logical way of thinking of course but it still goes against the wording of the Queen Mab card and no dought will cause a few more rule issues with using keywords to change cards effects. Thus if someone wanted to say "yours" is a new keyword then it needs a house rule to truly fix the issue (the same with "Killed" with the Valkyrie and using other keyword triggers like Draw, Look and Reveal when taking card from the top of a deck).

Sorry about double post, just needed to clear that up .

Of course other peoples opinion on the matter are welcome.

Yep, it would be like the Spells on the Genie. The Wyrd Path itself has possession of the destiny, so Queen Mab would have no effect on that particular destiny card as she targets the Player and the destiny cards in their direct possession.

This is the correct answer.

When Vortex is drawn, spells on the Genie or the Spellstone or anything else that grants you a spell without you actually possessing it are not taken away. You don't own them. You only have them because you have the object/follower/etc. that owns them.

The same holds for the Destiny. You have it, but you don't own it. You use it and benefit from it, but it doesn't belong to you. Queen Mab can't take it from you because your Path gives it to you. Unless she can take your Path (which she can't) she cannot take that Destiny.

So Uvatha can enact his own house rule that says that Queen Mab can take it. The rest of us can play with the cards as written.

When Vortex is drawn, spells on the Genie or the Spellstone or anything else that grants you a spell without you actually possessing it are not taken away. You don't own them. You only have them because you have the object/follower/etc. that owns them.

The same holds for the Destiny. You have it, but you don't own it. You use it and benefit from it, but it doesn't belong to you. Queen Mab can't take it from you because your Path gives it to you. Unless she can take your Path (which she can't) she cannot take that Destiny.

So Uvatha can enact his own house rule that says that Queen Mab can take it. The rest of us can play with the cards as written.

Except the Genie and Spellstone do not say "counts as having" for the Spells they come with instead they say "treat the Spells as though you had cast them" so in fact you do not have the Spells and effects that target your Spells do not effect them.

But with this issue you do "count as having" the Destiny thus its lost because its yours. Like i stated before there is no clear difference between "having" and "yours".

Simple really but im cool with agreeing to disagree and leave it to the players themselves. With the proper house rule edit of course .

Except the Genie and Spellstone do not say "counts as having" for the Spells they come with instead they say "treat the Spells as though you had cast them" so in fact you do not have the Spells and effects that target your Spells do not effect them.

But with this issue you do "count as having" the Destiny thus its lost because its yours. Like i stated before there is no clear difference between "having" and "yours".

Simple really but im cool with agreeing to disagree and leave it to the players themselves. With the proper house rule edit of course .

I believe the text of the card says, "You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path."

Let me repeat that, only this time with some emphasis:

"You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path ."

The Destiny belongs to the Path. Unless you lose the Path you cannot lose the Destiny. Not even Queen Mab can take it away.

Except the Genie and Spellstone do not say "counts as having" for the Spells they come with instead they say "treat the Spells as though you had cast them" so in fact you do not have the Spells and effects that target your Spells do not effect them.

But with this issue you do "count as having" the Destiny thus its lost because its yours. Like i stated before there is no clear difference between "having" and "yours".

Simple really but im cool with agreeing to disagree and leave it to the players themselves. With the proper house rule edit of course .

I believe the text of the card says, "You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path."

Let me repeat that, only this time with some emphasis:

"You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path ."

The Destiny belongs to the Path. Unless you lose the Path you cannot lose the Destiny. Not even Queen Mab can take it away.

Yes that's right "So long as you are on this Path you count as having the Destiny" but no-where does it say "Unless you lose this path you cannot lose this Destiny" Wyrd Path instead says "Draw a Destiny and put it on this card. You count as having this Destiny for as long as you are on this Path" there is no "cannot lose".

In effect no where does it say that the Path "has" or "owns" the Destiny just that the Destiny is placed on the Path. But because it does say "you count as having" you indeed have it thus its yours in all respects. Otherwise why does it say "you count as having" if its intention was the player to keep the Destiny why not just say "you may use the Destinies abilities and effects as if you owned it" thus clearly saying you can use it as if you owned it without you actually "owning" it.

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Okay, so let's say you're right, (Only for the sake of argument, though. You're not right.) Queen Mab forces you to discard that Destiny. If that happens you get to immediately reclaim it. Why?

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Since Queen Mab didn't kick you off the Path, you get that Destiny back immediately. The Destiny is yours so long as you are on the Path.

WHY? Because that's what's written on the card.

I can't believe how you overthink so many incredibly simple things.

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Okay, so let's say you're right, (Only for the sake of argument, though. You're not right.) Queen Mab forces you to discard that Destiny. If that happens you get to immediately reclaim it. Why?

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Since Queen Mab didn't kick you off the Path, you get that Destiny back immediately. The Destiny is yours so long as you are on the Path.

WHY? Because that's what's written on the card.

I can't believe how you overthink so many incredibly simple things.

So your saying "so long as you are on the path the Destiny can never be discarded" even though it does not say this? there is no forbidding effect in the text to in force this. Just because you are on the path does not mean you cant lose the Destiny. So I say to you

"Show me where it says you cannot lose the Destiny while you have the path".

As for overthinking stuff your doing a great job of that yourself by putting words into cards text and insisting that cards cannot be discarded when they can because there is nothing saying otherwise, its like saying that because my sword is being carried by my mule it cannot be shattered....

I think we will just have to agree to disagree which like I said before is totally fine.

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Okay, so let's say you're right, (Only for the sake of argument, though. You're not right.) Queen Mab forces you to discard that Destiny. If that happens you get to immediately reclaim it. Why?

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Since Queen Mab didn't kick you off the Path, you get that Destiny back immediately. The Destiny is yours so long as you are on the Path.

WHY? Because that's what's written on the card.

I can't believe how you overthink so many incredibly simple things.

So your saying "so long as you are on the path the Destiny can never be discarded" even though it does not say this? there is no forbidding effect in the text to in force this. Just because you are on the path does not mean you cant lose the Destiny. So I say to you

"Show me where it says you cannot lose the Destiny while you have the path".

As for overthinking stuff your doing a great job of that yourself by putting words into cards text and insisting that cards cannot be discarded when they can because there is nothing saying otherwise, its like saying that because my sword is being carried by my mule it cannot be shattered....

I think we will just have to agree to disagree which like I said before is totally fine.

What I am saying is that the Path says that you get the Destiny so long as you are on that Path.

So now you need to show me where it says that you can be on that Path without having that Destiny.

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Okay, so let's say you're right, (Only for the sake of argument, though. You're not right.) Queen Mab forces you to discard that Destiny. If that happens you get to immediately reclaim it. Why?

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Since Queen Mab didn't kick you off the Path, you get that Destiny back immediately. The Destiny is yours so long as you are on the Path.

WHY? Because that's what's written on the card.

I can't believe how you overthink so many incredibly simple things.

So your saying "so long as you are on the path the Destiny can never be discarded" even though it does not say this? there is no forbidding effect in the text to in force this. Just because you are on the path does not mean you cant lose the Destiny. So I say to you

"Show me where it says you cannot lose the Destiny while you have the path".

As for overthinking stuff your doing a great job of that yourself by putting words into cards text and insisting that cards cannot be discarded when they can because there is nothing saying otherwise, its like saying that because my sword is being carried by my mule it cannot be shattered....

I think we will just have to agree to disagree which like I said before is totally fine.

First you show me where it says that you CAN lose the Destiny.

Woodlands Destinies rules:

Destinies are not considered Objects, Spells, or

Followers. Therefore, they cannot be ditched, stolen,

sold, or traded, unless an effect specifically refers to

Destiny Cards. Characters may gain any number of

Destinies during the game.

Your turn.

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Okay, so let's say you're right, (Only for the sake of argument, though. You're not right.) Queen Mab forces you to discard that Destiny. If that happens you get to immediately reclaim it. Why?

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Since Queen Mab didn't kick you off the Path, you get that Destiny back immediately. The Destiny is yours so long as you are on the Path.

WHY? Because that's what's written on the card.

I can't believe how you overthink so many incredibly simple things.

So your saying "so long as you are on the path the Destiny can never be discarded" even though it does not say this? there is no forbidding effect in the text to in force this. Just because you are on the path does not mean you cant lose the Destiny. So I say to you

"Show me where it says you cannot lose the Destiny while you have the path".

As for overthinking stuff your doing a great job of that yourself by putting words into cards text and insisting that cards cannot be discarded when they can because there is nothing saying otherwise, its like saying that because my sword is being carried by my mule it cannot be shattered....

I think we will just have to agree to disagree which like I said before is totally fine.

First you show me where it says that you CAN lose the Destiny.

Woodlands Destinies rules:

Destinies are not considered Objects, Spells, or

Followers. Therefore, they cannot be ditched, stolen,

sold, or traded, unless an effect specifically refers to

Destiny Cards. Characters may gain any number of

Destinies during the game.

Your turn.

Yeah, I changed what I asked for. You were too quick.

Show me where it says that you can be on that specific path without having the destiny.

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Okay, so let's say you're right, (Only for the sake of argument, though. You're not right.) Queen Mab forces you to discard that Destiny. If that happens you get to immediately reclaim it. Why?

FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THIS PATH

YOU COUNT AS HAVING THIS DESTINY

Since Queen Mab didn't kick you off the Path, you get that Destiny back immediately. The Destiny is yours so long as you are on the Path.

WHY? Because that's what's written on the card.

I can't believe how you overthink so many incredibly simple things.

So your saying "so long as you are on the path the Destiny can never be discarded" even though it does not say this? there is no forbidding effect in the text to in force this. Just because you are on the path does not mean you cant lose the Destiny. So I say to you

"Show me where it says you cannot lose the Destiny while you have the path".

As for overthinking stuff your doing a great job of that yourself by putting words into cards text and insisting that cards cannot be discarded when they can because there is nothing saying otherwise, its like saying that because my sword is being carried by my mule it cannot be shattered....

I think we will just have to agree to disagree which like I said before is totally fine.

First you show me where it says that you CAN lose the Destiny.

Woodlands Destinies rules:

Destinies are not considered Objects, Spells, or

Followers. Therefore, they cannot be ditched, stolen,

sold, or traded, unless an effect specifically refers to

Destiny Cards. Characters may gain any number of

Destinies during the game.

Your turn.

Yeah, I changed what I asked for. You were too quick.

Show me where it says that you can be on that specific path without having the destiny.

Don't understand why would it need to? I don't understand what your trying to say here. If you have a Destiny you have a Destiny if you are on a Path your in a Path neither are needed for the other (unless a path or destiny says so of course) .

further more if there is meant to be a forbidding effect it really has to say so otherwise there is nothing to stop the effect. If the rules had to state everything a player can do before saying they cannot the rulebook would read like a lawcase and be 1000 of pages long, hench why we have the Golden Rules in the first place. So no "cannot" or "can't" nothing to stop it being discarded.

The issue at hand, though, is that this specific Path grants you the Destiny that you draw " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ." Of course it doesn't say that you can never lose the Destiny. Rather, it states positively that the Destiny is yours " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ."

So my challenge to you: show me a circumstance where you can lose the Destiny but still fulfill the condition of the Path where you get to have the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ." That is, how can you be on the Path that grants you the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH " but not have the Destiny that has been granted to you " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH "?

The issue at hand, though, is that this specific Path grants you the Destiny that you draw " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ." Of course it doesn't say that you can never lose the Destiny. Rather, it states positively that the Destiny is yours " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ."

So my challenge to you: show me a circumstance where you can lose the Destiny but still fulfill the condition of the Path where you get to have the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ." That is, how can you be on the Path that grants you the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH " but not have the Destiny that has been granted to you " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH "?

What you failing to understand is that if the Path did not say "treat as having the destiny" the destiny would just sit there on the Path and it would do nothing until you complete the Path. But because you do treat it as if you have it then it can be targetted by effects that effect your destinies.

The only way past this is if the Path had a forbidding effect like "you cannot lose the destiny while your on this path" it does not say any forbidding effect take this as a example.

Mule and Bag of Carrying: Now you may take a object by a ability or spell from the Mule because there is no forbidding effect saying otherwise. But the Bag of Carrying has a forbidding effect it says "neither may be taken by any character's special ability or Spell" so a chararter cannot take a object inside by a spell or ability. Now if the Bag of Carrying did not have the forbidding effect what would happen? You would be allowed to take a object in the Bag right!

Now i know paths are not followers or objects that can carry objects but the example is still the same, the destiny is on the path there is no forbidding effect so when a effect causes the destiny to be discarded its discarded. Then the character has to find a way around having a path that in effect does nothing.

I have also given you a example from the woodlands rulebook where it says that this happens when a effect targets a destiny and i have explained why everything doesn't need to say it can in the rulebook for the effect to happen - but instead says that if a forbidding effect says you can't then you can't

Also i have said that im cool with this being a case if agreeing to disagree because other than expaining it like this there is not much else i can say on the matter.

What you failing to understand is that if the Path did not say "treat as having the destiny" the destiny would just sit there on the Path and it would do nothing until you complete the Path. But because you do treat it as if you have it then it can be targetted by effects that effect your destinies.

The only way past this is if the Path had a forbidding effect like "you cannot lose the destiny while your on this path" it does not say any forbidding effect take this as a example.

You are only focusing on the portion of the Path card that grants you the Destiny. You are completely ignoring the condition (the one that I keep emphasizing) that states that you have that Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ." That's as good as saying, "You cannot lose the Destiny." Why? Because you have the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ."

Show me the conditions where you can be on this Path without having the Destiny. These conditions must satisfy the condition of the Path where you have the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ."

In other words, how can you simultaneously be on the Path and have the Destiny that is guaranteed to you " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH " and be on the Path and NOT have the Destiny that is guaranteed to you " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH "?

You can't have it both ways. Either the card is true at all times or it isn't. There are no conditions listed on the card that state that you can be on the Path and not have the Destiny. The Path and the Destiny are one. The only way to lose the Destiny is to lose the Path.

Osbo, you cannot argue with Uvatha. It's a complete waste of energy. He's dead wrong, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense. He's a contrarion troll, I swear he just disagrees with common sense stuff so that he has something to do, then he will tell you to PROVE IT WITH THE RULES and when the rules don't specifically have a solution he will proclaim victory and belittle you by saying "see I was right but you go ahead and house rule it if you like." He would argue rain's not wet and the earth is flat just because they aren't in the talisman ruke book.

Osbo, you cannot argue with Uvatha. It's a complete waste of energy. He's dead wrong, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense. He's a contrarion troll, I swear he just disagrees with common sense stuff so that he has something to do, then he will tell you to PROVE IT WITH THE RULES and when the rules don't specifically have a solution he will proclaim victory and belittle you by saying "see I was right but you go ahead and house rule it if you like." He would argue rain's not wet and the earth is flat just because they aren't in the talisman ruke book.

Dude it's not worth arguing with Uvatha, he will never ever ever concede that he was wrong, no matter how obvious it is. He will spend hours writing essays quoting from the rules and all kinds of nonsense to try and justify a bs position, this stupid argument just isn't worth having to deal with someone as stubborn as he is that has WAYYYYY too much time on his hands, and when you finally give up and say sorry man you're being stupid and I'm not engaging you he proclaims victory by demanding more points and counter points from you. He thinks he wins because he will never stop posting with plenty of meaningless quotations and rules references. Just the kind of person I would never play any kind of game with, because I'd have to throw them out of my house.

You'd think I'd learn. (I think there's at least one other time you've said this, but I'm too lazy to go find it.)

What you failing to understand is that if the Path did not say "treat as having the destiny" the destiny would just sit there on the Path and it would do nothing until you complete the Path. But because you do treat it as if you have it then it can be targetted by effects that effect your destinies.

The only way past this is if the Path had a forbidding effect like "you cannot lose the destiny while your on this path" it does not say any forbidding effect take this as a example.

You are only focusing on the portion of the Path card that grants you the Destiny. You are completely ignoring the condition (the one that I keep emphasizing) that states that you have that Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ." That's as good as saying, "You cannot lose the Destiny." Why? Because you have the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ."

Show me the conditions where you can be on this Path without having the Destiny. These conditions must satisfy the condition of the Path where you have the Destiny " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH ."

In other words, how can you simultaneously be on the Path and have the Destiny that is guaranteed to you " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH " and be on the Path and NOT have the Destiny that is guaranteed to you " FOR AS LONG AS YOU ARE ON THE PATH "?

You can't have it both ways. Either the card is true at all times or it isn't. There are no conditions listed on the card that state that you can be on the Path and not have the Destiny. The Path and the Destiny are one. The only way to lose the Destiny is to lose the Path.

That's right you can't have it both ways, there is no conditions listed on the card that forbids the loss of the Destiny, the Path does not say "the only way to lose the Destiny is to lose the Path" or "you cannot lose the Destiny while on the Path" it says "you count as having the Destiny so long as you are on the Path" its as plain as day, there is no guarantee because there is no forbidding effect that stops the discard.

In effect "having" something does not stop it from being discarded or otherwise losing of the card in question. For that to happen it does need to say something that stops the effect in question (example: Bag of Carrying). Also the fact that the Destiny is on the Path does not stop it from being targeted or discarded - all the Path says is that you "count as having the Destiny while your on the Path" it is possible to have a Path without the Destiny (again because it does not say it cannot, can't "or otherwise forbidden" to lose the Destiny)

Also writing text IN RED and BOLD does not somehow enforce your reasoning or even help to explain your point of view. I'm sure like me others people can read the text just fine.

But again like i said (third times the charm) looks like we have to agree to disagree I've explained it as best as anyone can.

Osbo, you cannot argue with Uvatha. It's a complete waste of energy. He's dead wrong, and it's obvious to anyone with any sense. He's a contrarion troll, I swear he just disagrees with common sense stuff so that he has something to do, then he will tell you to PROVE IT WITH THE RULES and when the rules don't specifically have a solution he will proclaim victory and belittle you by saying "see I was right but you go ahead and house rule it if you like." He would argue rain's not wet and the earth is flat just because they aren't in the talisman ruke book.

Not true at all Joker2016 if i am a "contrarion troll" how come I agree with other posters and even agree with other rule issues, hell i even agree with you from time to time. This "trying to stereotype" me is unfair, unjustified and borderline abusive.

Sorry about the double post though I'm on my mobile device.