Orc Antagonists?

By Awesomeness, in WFRP Gamemasters

I wondered if I could get a little help from the other GM's out there. What have you done to make interesting and exciting orc antagonists? It seems the the only time characters encounter greenskins of any kind it is in a very impersonal (and sort of cliche) manner. You know what I mean: an orc warband is on the Waaagh and is coming to destroy the city/town/etc., or maybe a powerful orc shaman has united several clans and they are coming to destroy the city... you get the point. How do you make encounters with greenskins memorable? Do you even use orcs as enemies in your campaigns? I have had a hard time including them in substantive ways. Maybe you all could share some of your experiences or ideas?

I once had the characters run into snotlings in the slums of Nuln, accompanied by some vicious little squigs.

I did once use orc undead instead of the regular human variety.

I have just been thinking about some way to throw in a little variety. Any ideas are welcome.

Awesomeness said:

I wondered if I could get a little help from the other GM's out there. What have you done to make interesting and exciting orc antagonists? It seems the the only time characters encounter greenskins of any kind it is in a very impersonal (and sort of cliche) manner. You know what I mean: an orc warband is on the Waaagh and is coming to destroy the city/town/etc., or maybe a powerful orc shaman has united several clans and they are coming to destroy the city... you get the point. How do you make encounters with greenskins memorable? Do you even use orcs as enemies in your campaigns? I have had a hard time including them in substantive ways. Maybe you all could share some of your experiences or ideas?

I once had the characters run into snotlings in the slums of Nuln, accompanied by some vicious little squigs.

I did once use orc undead instead of the regular human variety.

I have just been thinking about some way to throw in a little variety. Any ideas are welcome.

I used a bunch of orc one liners mentioned in another thread. My party loved it.

How about this: There are two different warbosses in the area, each trying to gather a waagh. At first, the humans (and the PCs) only know that orcish raiders have moved into the region, but eventually notice that some of the bands are fighting each other as often as humans. If one warboss were to defeat the other, he would be able to absorb the other's warband and form a proper waaagh. Naturally, the humans want to avoid this however they can, and the PCs are involved in keeping the orcs at each others throats, as evenly balanced as possible, until the Empire can bring enough military strength to bear to break both warbands.

In the past, my PCs have traded, spoken to and shared a campfire with Greenskins - why do they always have to be 'kill on sight'?

An interesting thing I did was that the Greenskins and the PCs had to ally temporarily against another threat. The first meeting was interesting roleplaying as the PCs did not really know Greenskin social ettiquete - they were greeted by the Boss walking up to the toughest of them and back-handing him in the chest (I made that a typical Orc greeting), how they intepret gestures like this makes for very interesting situations.

I don't really like Warhammer orcs. They are often protrayed in cartoony fashion. They just love to fight. I find them 1 dimensional. And I don't particularly like anything they've written to give them any more dimensions.

That being said:

You could have an orc outcast (like a Troll-slayer) who is trying to regain his honour.

You could have the PC's come across an encounter of the orcs attacking a group of Chaos. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. OR you could have the Orcs attack the Chaos that the PC's were about to (coming to their rescue?) or even have the PC's fighting Chaos and everybody is attacked by the Orcs

I'm fond of this idea because it immediately puts the PC's in an interesting predictament. Are the Orcs allies or not? Will the orcs turn on them? Will the PC's turn on them?

Orcs in Warhammer really are just mindless brutes thoughthat's kind of the point. They're creatures that are literally spawned for destruction. Normally I like making complex, dynamic villains, it just doesn't fit with Warhammer orcs though.

Krelios said:

Orcs in Warhammer really are just mindless brutes thoughthat's kind of the point. They're creatures that are literally spawned for destruction. Normally I like making complex, dynamic villains, it just doesn't fit with Warhammer orcs though.

Problem is, they are too much like Beastmen...

I still think the gobbo in the original 'Death on the Reik' adventure is by far my most memorable greenskin to date. For those who don't remember he .....

<WARNING SPOILER>

...worked for a human sorceress who had left town and was conviced that her magic came from the clothes she wore. So when the party encounters him he's dressed in a full length gown easily two sizes two large with a diamond tiara atop his head and drenched in perfume. He waves his hands in attempt to weave a spell and realizing it has no affect, shrugs and attacks.

- Mordak

I prefer the silly orcs and goblins just because it is different. The world is so grim and dark and the orcs provide a rather bluntly funny contrast with the way they talk and do things. I would go so far as to make them comic relief but they are the "fun" monsters my party likes.

What about the PC's taking the fight to the Orks?

So, for some reason they need to enter the Ork warren beneath the World's Edge Mountains. They enter the caverns and kill some Orks, take their scalps, whatever. Then they hit the women and children captured by the Orks and enslaved. What do the PC's do when they've discovered humans of the Empire who have been enslaved for 10 years? Do they choose the people or their mission? Can they balance both?

I know this doesn't make Orks themselves more dynamic, but it is an interesting situation surrounding Orks.

I think it'll no longer be impersonal if an Orc warboss attacked a village and killed a PC's friend/lover/etc. They HAVE to be used mainly as brutes who love to fight, especially those who are not orcs, so them killing someone a PC know is the only way I can think of now that will make the antagonism personal. You could have a finale where the group is surrounded by orcs, but the warboss shooed the other lesser orcs away so he can take care of the avenging PC personally, though how the PC can survive fighting an orc warboss is beyond me (maybe with copious use of fortune points?).

How about a recurring Orc Boss whose power is growing. The PC's first encounter him leading a small mob of Orcs. The leader contrives to escape the encounter (Orcs DO run away when it suits them) and the next time he runs across the PC's his mob includes some Orcs and a few Goblin archers (different tactical problem). The next time there's a bundle of snotlings.

The idea is that the Boss is gathering a Waarrggh slowly and her keeps coming for the PC's because they are continually the only thing that stops his march of conquest. Initially he seems a recurring comedic monster, but as time passes the threat grows to the point where high level characters are confronted with a full on Orc Waarrggh.

Actually, now that I type this, I think I know how I'm going to tie together my first V3 campaign.

Thanks for the ideas. I guess I was just having a mental block. The imagination was s...t...rug...ling. I agree that greenskins are somewhat 1-dimensional and I may just put in some of my own stuff, but I would like to maintain some of the comedy that has always gone along with them. I actually think that several of the ideas here could lead to a very interesting orc-centered series of adventures or maybe just interludes between our other campaigns. Thanks again, I appreciate the help.

Another thing I thought about was perhaps using hobgoblins or gnoblars to change things up. Hobgoblins seem to be a bit more sneaky, if not intelligent, and I don't see any reason that a band couldn't make its way into the border prince region or maybe Kislev. Maybe gnoblars could have tagged along with a merchant caravan from the spice road or something or stowed away on a ship that ends up in Marienburg? Any ideas in that direction?

Again thanks for the help, I always appreciate different thoughts - any contribution is wothwhile because they all get me thinking in directions I hadn't before.

Just "de-WFB" your WRFP orcs. Forget the magic space fungus aspect of Orks that really comes from 40k back in the day when the two were related. Make them a real race like elves or dwarves. Just don't make them act like Klingons for Sigmar's Sake. lengua.gif

Also consider that in a lot of the lore - goblin 'shaman' that are really cunning might be working with a orc boss - or on his own plan. These generally open up a bit more deviousness but as others have said you still want to keep the 'orc' flavor as it is a nice break from the grim Chaos/cult infested world.

I think the key to making a good Orc antagonist is to avoid the hackneyed caricatures that (as has been so astutely pointed out) have been done to death in the novels/comics, and really make something different.

Intelligent, cunning, and leading a very small group rather than a large one would go a long way to making a credible villain.

Orcs and Goblins are green creatures born/grown from spores for battle and violence, this is what they are and it makes them quite one dimensional.

There are however still ways to make an Orc Antagonist memorable, they don't have to be an intresting person to discuss things with in order to make them a good villan. A blackorc whose "kunnin wiv tacticz" makes the PCs struggle on how to counter his plans and lets disoriented captains cry as their full forces are outmanouvered could be a good villan even if he is quite one dimensional. An orc band who has conquered a foretress and for the moment simply wants to stay there and party (until they get restless again) that the PCs are asked to do something about would also be a little bit more intresting as it puts the greenskins in a passive role.

You can also just give them a goal or/and quirk randomly generated from Renegade crowns (the styles and principles doesn't fit that well) which will give him a little bit more character while still keeping him as a proper orc.

Or have a multi-antagonistic adventure: There is a local Orc tribe rampaging villages and the chaos created has allowed some cult or organization's more nefarious activities to go unnoticed.

Other than that, you're stuck with the cookie cutter "Smash da Humies" Orcs unless you break from Warhammer canon.

EineHund said:

Also consider that in a lot of the lore - goblin 'shaman' that are really cunning might be working with a orc boss - or on his own plan. These generally open up a bit more deviousness but as others have said you still want to keep the 'orc' flavor as it is a nice break from the grim Chaos/cult infested world.

I was gonna suggest the same thing. Forget Orcs, they just bash peoples head in. The Goblins, that's where the real threat is. Those little buggers are smart. Have your party encounter a small Goblin group, and let the Goblin Shaman escape. He'll be after your party, trying to get revenge because you killed his gang, using whichever Greenskin tribe is near (I'm sure the Goblin will be cunning enough to let a few warbosses think it's their idea).

In the earlier Warhammer campaigns such as bugmans brewery you have goblins and orcs with motivation. That what makes interesting villeins no matter what race. Amongst the greenskins there is a tendency to be 1 dimensional but you gotto think About thier religion, their allies and thier warmachines.

Think about a group of Suicide bombers planning to build the biggest launcher eva. All of a sudden they start bombarding the local imperial town from the black mountains. Now your interpid bold adventurers have to go up into the 7 peaks and find the huge suicide bomber launcher. Of coarse with the climactic ending where the players have to use the launcher themselves to escape. Think of the ongoing fight between Skarsnik and the Skaven.

Its only as dimensional as you want it

its difficult to include orcs in a social setting, since they make for great adversaries. Orcs and their kind is numerous, and they tend to solve any problem with violence. its in their nature to kill or subude anything that is not them. Orcs are the mercaneries for the baddies. And they don`t have the same value systems as the the human realms have.

what about hobgoblins? they are the more social cousins of the greenskins. they have tribes, and do commerce, sometimes with other humans living on the verge of civilization, like in the Wheatlands or Kislev. I find them very interesting, as they are basically coarse humans with fangs and orange eyes.

in one of my games I used a hobgoblin as a scout for the party. it happend like this: the party was tracking an infamous vampire that had stolen a child from a village. it was in kislev during winter. During the long trekk into the wilderness in the search of the vampires they came upon a hobgoblin. The hobgoblin was locked in a cage hanging from a tree, left for dying. In this social encounter the hobgoblin tries to bargain for his release by telling them he know of this vampire and most importantly where it is heading. He promise to lead them to the vampire`s hideout if they release him. Not trusting him, they still didn`t have any options, their trail where getting cold, and they where low on supplies. cutting the story short he held his end of the bargain... and the unlikely heroes of warhammer triumphed once again.

Maybe you can use an orc in a similar context?

Deep in the closet gay orc shaman , takes a shine to one of the group - preferably the most macho*. The group need the co-operation of the orcs for some reason, so do they play along? Just fight and say stuff it? How does the orc disguise his 'perversion' from his uber tough mates? How does this affect your group dynamic? Roll on roleplaying

*personally I think making it the trollslayer is just a tad too much. Unless there were drugs involved. Or an alchemist.

** my group had both the above, and ended with a naked, half drugged trollslayer rampaging through an orc encampment searching for his alchemist mate to kill her in the most painful way possible. Escape by the group was only made possible by the in-fighting and laughter of the orcs (and the decapitated body of the shaman). I'm still trying to think of a way to bring the group back together without bloodshed. A disguise? Suggestions gratefully etc.

I like the Greenskins, but never have many opportunities to use them. So they have become pretty rare in my adventures. Skaven, undead and beastmen come much more often. I don't really like the Orcs presented as savages (primitive, live in tents, eat raw meat, etc...). Where do their armours come from ? Their Choppas ? They make them out of scraps they get from looting ? I prefer them as capable miners and smiths, if rather crude. They can build warmachines, they can build fortresses. So they aren't that "basic" or "stupid". They know politics, hierarchy, chain of commands, envy, jealousy, sadness even. They aren't as dumb and brutish as one would want to believe...

Seen like that, they become very interesting foes. I basically see them as a different civilization, from the Dark lands, backwards technologically and socially, but a civilisation none the less. The Goblins are also a funny sort of civilisation, half-parasite in the orc world, but also sometimes going solo, on its own, with Snotlings just there, by chance and pure dumbness.

Their constant bickering and lack of discipline make these foes funny, unpredictable, great to roleplay. But they can still achieve great things, it just costs more in lives and effort than for humans. This is what makes them different from the backstabbing Skaven, the mindless undead and the feral beastmen.

reg said:


Deep in the closet gay orc shaman , takes a shine to one of the group - preferably the most macho*. The group need the co-operation of the orcs for some reason, so do they play along? Just fight and say stuff it? How does the orc disguise his 'perversion' from his uber tough mates? How does this affect your group dynamic? Roll on roleplaying

Asexual? I thought they were just all so ugly that you couldn't tell the difference!. Hmm, that makes the shaman REALLY deviant; thank goodness we never went into the whole orcish gender wars thing (one of my players is pol. science - she asks many scary questions). Er, just out of interest, how do they procreate? I remember in WHK many years ago there was something about mushrooms and long toilets, but I thought that was the equivalent of orc bike shed stories.

PS Still trying to find a way to re-constitute my group post dwarven amatory exploits. Perhaps I can tell him this makes him very special.