Started our campaign today, and it took about 3.5 seconds before someone came up with the rather unique and stunning idea of riding a horse.

Shocking, I know.

Off the cuff I decided on a base cost of 5 GC for a riding horse, and 1 GC for a nag. With thoughts of fatigue/stress, stats, movement, etc. flashing through my head (things I had not put any serious thought into), I made a couple comments about how long horses might live in a new Warhammer campaign where you don't even have ONE fate point for the characters to share, and managed to put off the whole issue for a couple of weeks.

Has anyone put any thought into house rules for horses?

I'm going to be working on this tomorrow, and will post what I come up with, but would like to see if anyone has anything on this already.

I'm not sure what to price my horses at. On the one hand they are HORSES, on the other hand I expect them to get lost, stolen, maimed etc.

Shocked that this wasn't already in the book.

There are no horses in the pricelist? Then what IS there, apart from weapons and armor?

Perhaps you should just adapt Zapp's (it I remember correctly) lists to the new silver/gold ratio and not bother with the original anymore...

According to 2nd edition, a regular riding horse is about 2.5x a great weapon. I know some of the prices are wonky in that edition, but maybe around 3g for a horse doesn't sound too bad? Perhaps 1g and 25 silver or so for a mule?

This is what I came up with today. The first thing I had to determine was how much a 'person' (dwarf, elf, et al) weighed in encumberance points. This is important because horses will carry both equipment and characters, and a standard needed to be determined or there would be gross inconsistencies. This also needed to be done to avoid the 2nd Edition problem that a warhorse could not carry a fully armed and armored knight (assuming the knight had above average strength and toughness when compared to a peasant; a reasonable assumption).

Below you find a list that follows the format of Table 9-9 on page 79 of WFRP Rulebook. In italics you will see a descriptive name for this type of horse, followed in parenthesis by an example of a "Superior Craftsmanship" version of this horse. Next follows a one or two word definition of the type horse. Next you'll see the Unencumbered Limit / Encumbered Limit. Horses not trained to pull carts/wagons/coaches will be noted as such. Finally, you'll see the price. The first number is based off the price of other items found in Chapter 9 of the WFRP rulebook, while the second price is based off Chart 9-1, Approximate Incomes. This was neccessary in my mind because using the two different methods resulted in drastically different results. I would stick with the first listing unless you were willing to work over nearly the whole pricing list to make it more realistically match the income chart (for example, the cost of Rouncy or Hackney should equal the amount of income a skilled craftsman would earn in 6 months to a year). I almost didn't include the second value, but it's here if you want to make use of it. But like I said, I'd stick with the first value to keep things more balanced.

Abundant : Stott (Hobby Horse or Shetland Pony) : cheap workhorse; carries 40/50 enc and pulls 80/100 enc; Cost : 30s / 43s

Plentiful Sumpter (Draft Horse) : pack horse; carries 50/60 enc and pulls 100/120 enc; Cost : 60s / 72s

Common : Rouncy (Palfrey or Hackney) : riding horse; carries 50/60 enc; Not trained to the yoke; Cost : 6GC / 8GC 66s

Rare : Courser (Araby Courser) : hunting horse; carries 50/60 enc; Not trained to the yoke; Cost : 10GC / 30GC

Exotic : Destrier (Estalian Charger or Bretonnian Destrier) : warhorse; carries 60/70 enc; Not trained to the yoke; Cost : 20GC / 200GC

Rules:

1. A characters Encumberance value (how much they "weigh") is equal to their Wound Threshold plus 5. When determining whether or not a mount is encumbered, be sure to include the encumberance of the character's equipment. A saddle could be assumed to have an encumberance value of 5.

2. It costs 5s 20b per day to feed, and stable a horse. A horse can be put out to graze, but can not be expected to perform work until it has received this amount of money in food and care for one week. A horse also requires a regular waterings, at least 10 Gallons per day (about 15 encumberance if carried). Food for a horse includes about 20lbs of hay (4 encumberance) and 5lbs of feed (1 encumberance). Animals which can graze for several hours a day can be worked and will only require 3s per day in feed.

3. It costs 5s 20b to shoe a horse, which should be done every two or three months, but can go as long as six (it is a medieval setting). Furthermore, it costs 1s 15b to have the shoes removed, the hoofs cared for, and animal reshod with the same shoes. This should be done at least every two months.

4. A character with Animal Handling can perform all shoeing related tasks. This would be an Easy skill check, modified by conditions (availability of tools, a means to heat and reshape the shoes, etc.)

5. Medicianl supplies and services for horses run 14s per month. Characters with Animal Handling can cut this cost to 6s for the supplies, and perform all services on their own.

6. A cart costs 20s, and can be pulled by three horses in series (one before the other). The encumberance of the pulled supplies is split evenly between each horse. Thus, a cart pulled by three Stotts can hold 240 encumberance without encumbering any of the horses. They can pull 360 points, but will be encumbered. A wagon cost 50s, and can be pulled by 6 horses in the same manner as a cart (just with a greater encumberance limit). The weight of carts and wagons is considered to be negligable when pulled by horses.

7. A horse, or team of horses, may perform a Change Range Increment Manuever during the rider/drivers turn when being directed by a rider/driver. This does not require any skill check. If a rider/driver performs a Ride skill check as a Manuever, the horse or team of horses may perform up to three Change Range Increment Manuevers. Each Range Increment Manuever engaged in by the horse or team beyond the first adds one Misfortune die to the Ride Check (If the horse, or any horse which is part of a team is encumbered, use Challenge dice instead). If the check fails, the horse or team will only perform one Change Range Increment Manuever . If the check fails with two Banes, the horse or team comes to a stop. If the check includes two Chaos Stars, the rider/driver must make a Hard Ride check, or the rider is thrown, or the cart/wagon crashes (axel breaks, yoke breaks, capsizes, ie GM discretion on exactly what happens). If this occurs, each Bane makes one horse lame. Each Chaos star kills one animal. Any passengers or riders must make a Hard Athletics check. If they succeed take 1 fatigue per Change Range Increment Manuever attempted. If they fail, suffer 1 wound per Change Range Increment Manuever attempted, with +1 Wound per Bane, and +1 Critical per Chaos star, in addition to three fatigue. Note: Coursers add one Fortune die to all ride checks.

8. Horses have the following Statistics:

Stott ST 3(2) TO 3(1) AG 2(0) INT 1 WP 2 FEL 1 A2/C0/E0 WNDS 11 C2

Sumpter ST 4(2) TO 3(1) AG 3(1) INT 2 WP 2 FEL 1 A2/C1/E1 WNDS 12 C2

Rouncy ST 4(2) TO 3(1) AG 4(1) INT 2 WP 3 FEL 1 A2/C2/E1 WNDS 12 C1

Courser ST 4(2) TO 4(1) AG 5(2)[W] INT 3 WP 3 FEL 2 A3/C3/E2 WNDS 12 R1

Destrier ST 5(4)[W] TO 5(2)[W] AG 4(1) INT 2 WP 4[W] FEL 1 A5/C2/E3 WNDS 15 R2

Each Horse has Vicious Bite as found on page 49 of the Tome of Adventure . The Destrier also has Headlong Charge found on the same page. Destriers also have the following attack:

Braining Stomp

Recharge: 3 Bestial Weapon Skill (WS) vs Target Defence Used by Destrier Engaged with target

Effect: A half-ton of trained horse flesh drives its hooves into the head of it's victim.

[H] The attack inflicts normal damage; [H][H][H] The target is struck for +1 Damage, Critical Damage, and the target suffers from the Staggard condition for two rounds.

[boon] The target suffers +1 Critical; [boon] [boon] The target suffers from the Staggard Condition for +2 rounds.

[bane] The horse suffers 1 wound

[Comet] The target suffers from the Blinded condition for two rounds

[Chaos Star] Any rider must make an Average Ride test or be thrown. Go prone, and take 2 Wounds, ignoring Soak and Toughness.

9. Barding. Only Destriers are trained to wear armor. There are three types.

Caparison: A heavy, often decorative, cloth covering. Defense 1; Soak 0. Enc 5. Cost 20s. Common.

Chain: Interlocking metal links, with cloth padding underneath. Defense 1; Soak 3. Enc 18. Cost 3 GC. Rare.

Plate: Expensive and heavy, but provides the ultimate in equestrian protection. Defense 1; Soak 5. Enc 24. Cost 60 GC. Exotic.

Well guys, that about does it. Hope someone out there can use this, or at least modify it to fit their vision of how horses should be handled. Feel free to tear this apart, or otherwise offer improvements.

Boris Hochloff said:

Meant to say that a cart can be pulled by UP TO three horses. A wagon can be pulled by UP TO 6 horses.

Characteristics, Stats, and Rules for Mules and Oxen:

Mule ST 3(1) TO 3(1) AG 2(0) INT 1 WP 3[W] FEL 1 A1/C2/E0 WNDS 11 C3

Abundant: Mule (Dwarven Burro): standard farm animal; carries 40/50 enc and pulls 80/100 enc; Cost: 20s / 30s

Mules may only perform more than one Change Range Increment manuever per round if the rider/driver passes a Ride skill check with a difficulty modifier of one Challenge die (above and beyond normal misfortune/challenge die for performing this check).

Oxen ST 5(1) TO 4(2) AG 2(0) INT 1 WP 2 Fel 1 A1/C1/E0 WNDS 15 C2

Plentiful: Oxen (Stirland Brown): large work animal; can not be ridden or used as a pack animal but pulls 140/180 enc; costs 6 GC

Oxen may not perform more than one Change Range Increment manuever per round. Oxen who have access to grasslands may graze only and still be worked. Cost to feed oxen otherwise is 2b per day. Oxen do not need to be shod, and total monthly cost for care and medicinal supplies comes to 1s. Note: Oxen may seem particularly expensive. They were historically simply because of their suitablility for food. The advantage to this though, is that a lame or even a very recently deceased animal, still has a market value very near that of a young, healthy ox.

Mules have Vicious Bite as described above. Oxen will simply try to move away from a threat, or face it's horns towards the enemy - to no real effect.

Oof, that looks great and all, but I'm going to go for the simple horse concept in my game.

Horses will be like familiars. If it's a regular horse, it won't fight in battle. If it gets hurt, it'll run.

Warhorses will act as modifiers, not separate creatures: For example, adding fortune to a melee attack if charging, and perhaps extra wounds on a boon.

Everything else can be done off the cuff. My group, though they insist they are stat whores (indeed, one of my players loves min/maxing), generally makes rule decisions based off common sense. That's why I think this game will be awesome for them. They have the problem of being unable to houserule when there are specific rules for a game, thus "Breaking" the game. They're such competitive guys.

Anyways, my first game will be on Friday. We'll see what happens.

Fuller said:

Cool - I'm sure a lot of groups will try variations on your approach. Let us know how things pan out. Unfortunately I don't see my players having access to horses for a couple of weeks, so I'll have to wait and see if my system is good in practice.

Normally, I think I'll be using the "common sense ruleset" too. Still, while reading those rules (particularly the part on changing distances in battle mode) it occurred to me that they can make for a really engaging and cinematic carriage chase scene. I like that idea very much, and will probably test it as soon as possible (read: when I finally get my hands on the damned box). Kudos for your work, good job.

With the sneak-peak of the Small But Viscious Dog (SBVD) card, Tricks, and Action card, it's apparent that these rules will need a re-write.

I'll get to work on it after Wednesday, since I should have the Adventurers Toolkit by then.

I was concerned that my rules might be too complicated, but after seeing all that goes into a small dog I no longer have that concern. WFRP is not about making a simple game, it's about making a meaty game that is simple to play.

So, instead of being like NPC's/Critters/Monsters, mounts will have their own format, following the example set by the SBVD.

Boris Hochloff said:

Thanks for your effort Boris! I actually like what you've put together so far with one exception.

As characteristics go, I think a War Horse's strength would be 7-8, no? What exactly is the max value for characteristics anyway?

Anyway, well done!

Eldenward said:

It's a tough call, but I understand where you are coming from. I would have no problem playing in a campaign where the players or GM insisted on a 6, or even a 6[W]. I just didn't want the damage from a bite to be anymore than it is now.

Although some may be tempted to go even higher, I don't think you can because a ST 7 is equal to a Troll or Rat Ogre.

The other solution is to create a new Bite action card, perhaps calling it Equestrian Bite , and replacing the [H] result with "The attack inflicts normal damage -1." Then you could raise the strength without making the bite too damaging. Overall though, I'd leave the strength the same.

I have considered giving the Destrier another action that replaces Headlong Charge . It is listed below. I think it is "realistic" but am hesitant to make the Destrier too powerful for game balance (even though I believe most games do not properly represent the power of these beasts in battle). Anyway, here it is if anyone wants to implement it:

Thunderous Charge

Difficulty: <P> Recharge: 3 Equestrian Weapon Skill (WS) vs Target Defence Used by Destrier

Not currently engaged with target, target at close range, and rider is Trained in Ride

Effect: The rider spurs his warhorse towards it's target, attempting to trample it into the ground.

[H] The target is struck for +1 damage; [H][H] The target is struck for +1 Damage and the target suffers from the Staggard Condition for +2 rounds

[boon] The target suffers from the Staggard Condition for +2 rounds; [boon][boon] The attack gains Fear 2

[bane] If the target is armed with a spear, it may immediately take a free Basic Melee Attack against either the horse or rider; [bane][bane] The target may immediately take a free Basic Melee Attack against either the horse or rider

[Comet] Add the damage rating for the rider's equipped weapon. If the target is smaller than the horse, it is knocked prone

[Chaos Star] Any rider must make an Average Ride test or be thrown. Go prone, and take 2 Wounds, ignoring Soak and Toughness

Example: A trained rider, armed with lance and riding a destrier, finds himself at long range to a target. The rider has the horse move three movement segments (by makinng the requisite check). Then the horse (at the direction of the rider) uses the Thunderous Charge action netting two hammers, three boons, and a comet. It does 16 damage, staggers the target for 4 rounds, and gains Fear 2. The rider then strikes the same target, so that in all you are looking at enough damage to easily kill a Wargor.

Certainly enough to give most PCs pause when facing a unit of Knights on open ground.

Boris Hochloff said:

There will not be a rewrite of these rules. I've struggled with how to make mounts (at least the riding animals) more like the SBVD, but am not going to implement it. The SBVD is not just a Pet , but is also a Follower . Mounts may qualify as Pets , but will not be Followers; maybe some will be under FFGs forthcoming rules on horses (perhaps a special Follower horse for a Freelance or Highwayman career) but they will not be under these rules.

But other than the whole Pet/Follower issue is the fact that horses are susceptible to being killed, not just to run off and hide like the SBVD. Horses are also more like tools, not so much like companions such as dogs, hawks, ferrets, or any number of other possible future additions to the game. This is true so far as how adventurers are likely to view and use mounts during their perilous adventures.

This is not to say that characters, or even players, will not develop strong connections to a particular horse. I'm sure they will. But they will also develop the same connections to some mundane weapons, npcs, and other bits of "equipment" that do not have SBVD style rules designed for them. In fact, it's my guess that there will be a weaker emotional connection between players and their SBVD than with a good horse since there is no risk of the SBVD being killed. Risk of loss is a powerful emotional catalyst.

Wow, I side-tracked my own post. Anyway, lots of words to say that these house rules will not be affected by the introduction of the long-awaited and really cool SBVD.

Excellent Work.

My group started last FRiday and the Road Warden's first question was "How much for me to have a horse?" Using the 2nd edition prices I guess are 2g as well. So your prices suited me just fine.

Thanks for all the hard work

Great work Boris!!!

Now that I have the AT Box I will create some horse Cards based on your rules, If I may do.
The Problem with encumberance and strength: I will Give the horse a strength around 7-8 but a special Racial Ability which raises the Encumbered Limit.

So a horse doesn't kill every Oger and still can carry a Ritter.

I think I'm going to go for something simple along the lines of:

Riding Horse - Gives you the Swift special rule in encounters unless encumbered.

Warhorse - Grants you +1 Fortune in combat unless encumbered.

I'm also going to throw in a home brew action along the lines of the Boar's Headlong Rush, but using Ride instead of Strength. In terms of encumberance, all horses and pack animals will be able to carry what seems reasonable before they are encumbered. Being on a horse will off Fortune dice in certain circumstances and quality of the horse will add fortune and misfortune dice to related checks.

I'll probably steal Boris' costs for the time being. Thanks Boris.

My group tends to run 'rules lite' and so until something official comes out, this should cover me.

Boris : first, let me say thank-you for the work you've done on this so far.

Have you considered a hybrid-style sheet that uses the creature stat line, but also has slots for Tricks (and perhaps even obedience, though that would be odd)?

That way you could train a mount, or whatever, by buying it Tricks with XP, but it would also have Wounds and mortality.

Thus, you can buy a basic steed with the stat-lines you suggest above, but could also train it with additional Tricks to make it more valuable over time, such as the Thunderous Charge, which might be a bit much as an innate ability, but seems more reasonable for something trained, almost like buying an Action Card.

schoon said:

One of those moments that make you go, "Why didn't I think of that?" You could make them tricks or action cards. Just include ". . . riding a Destrier. . ."; " . . . riding a Courser with Ride trained. . ." etc., as conditions on the action cards.

And yes, Thunderous Charge is a bit much for an innate ability I got a little over zealous with my toys.

You could also create action cards with traits like Trick Riding or Highwayman or Templar , or Destrier , Riding Animal, etc., that will restrict their availabilty.

I think it would be really cool if any interested parties would post such action cards.

The only decision that needs to be made is whether these action cards belong to specific mounts, or characters. Tough call. Maybe there should be both.

Life is intruding on my fun, and will for the next several weeks. I'll put some more time in it as soon as possible, but in the mean time would love to see what others come up with.

Oh, quick note on the people posting simpler ways to handle mounts (add a fortune die for example). Thanks for posting, I know there are a lot of people who are looking for a simple way to handle these things and it's great to see lots of different ideas being put out there. And thanks for all the kudos everyone.

I worked on a "Follower, Riding Horse" Card. Like the "SbvD". I will post it as soon as I have time. After work we start our 2nd session...
An abbey near River Teufel...! And with my new critical house rule...

My haughty Swordsmaster of Hoeth will of course want to take an Elven Steed with him on his mission to escort another High Elf, an Envoy from Ulthuan, to Altfdorf.

Horses, the riding skill, and even cavalry weapons (sabres) were mentioned so often in the WHFRP3 rules that it is a surprise to me that horse and mount rules were not included in the core set.