True dat. ha

Just wanted to clarify what I meant by rounds and turns. I realised afterwards that destroy magic doesn't use the term round. I should of course have used blizzard in my example instead which last two turns for ALL players and therefore uses the word rounds instead. If I drew the card then it stays in effect until I've taken two turns. It doesn't matter for us if one of those turns were missed due to the maze, forest, immobility or whatever. For us a missed turn has a start and an end - you're just to preoccupied with something else to do something between.

So,for us, a turn can be missed when it comes to do anything game related with your character but not when counting turns for a given card or counting towards played rounds.

Hopefully this clarifies more than it confuses. And I, for one, can't see anything confusing in this. Can anyone give an example when this reasoning can't be used? I can't think of a single card that won't work but I've been wrong before.

Yep a round is a whole game turn from the first player to the last player, if a number of players lose a turn it does not change a round. In effect all players can lose a turn and its still counts as a round. Very easy to get confused between rounds and turns. That's one reason why I did my Forever Talisman Ruleset (shameless pug warning) I found Talisman needed a set rules on how a game started.

ok, here's an example that shows why you can't ignore time.

Playing The Bloodmoon; your character is told to miss a turn, then the next player draws an event and now it's night. Following the logic of the "my turn, my timers", when it came back around to YOUR turn, it would still be daytime for only YOUR character because apparently time didn't change for you, since nothing changes (for YOU) until the end of YOUR turn.

That's one thing that DO affect you even though your missing a turn. I'm sorry, gatorcoffee, for being confusing. I'll try again.

Missing a turn, for us, means you can't do anything game related but you're still affected by game effects and the passing of turns and rounds. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even though you're preoccupied by something else (missing a turn) the world doesn't stop spinning around you. Still confusing..?

That wasn't for you, Rigmaster. That was for the "no turn exists" crowd who now play games at different timeframes because someone missed a turn and so ceased to be in this moment but are now X seconds (or minutes) behind the rest of the universe.

And to go with that player 1, 2, 3 example from earlier... how can you even count the missed turns IF THEY DON'T EXIST ON YOUR TIMELINE OF TURNS?!?!

"Did I miss one turn or two?"

"I don't know, since you apparently stopped existing for a brief moment."

"Did I miss one turn or two?"

"I don't know, since you apparently stopped existing for a brief moment."

YES!

Seriously though, I don't know anymore which option is better (all I know is both are equally unsupported by the rules as they are).

I asked my wife and a couple friends, and the split opinion was 2-2. I see a turn as whatever happens to a character during their turn in a round, even if it is missed and nothing happens. The two that disagree with me seem to get hung up on the idea that you must have a movement phase to have a proper turn. I simply don't agree. In theory a toad could miss 5 turns, possibly more, if targeted by players and with epicly rotten luck, the idea that someone could hang around as a toad for 8 rounds when the effect is meant to be 3 just seems like nonsense to me. A toad hopping around a maze or swamp for a turn still had a turn, and an entire round to be a potential victim to everyone else.

Something that has gone utterly unmentioned up until now is the fact that Talisman is a game with real human people controlling the pieces on the board. Now, I don't mean that in the sense of, "Oh, this is just a game so we shouldn't be worked up about it." What I mean is that being turned into a Toad is intended to be something detrimental to the human being who is trying to win the game, and that detrimental thing is designed to affect you for three TURNS, not three ROUNDS.

Yes, other people can still attack you during those rounds where you might miss a turn. That's part of the detriment.

Yes, you could theoretically spend the rest of the game as a Toad, never ever ever getting to take another turn. While that is exceedingly unlikely, that also is part of the detriment.

The intent behind being turned into a Toad for three TURNS is that you must hop three spaces and face three potential encounters as a Toad. That cannot happen if missed turns count toward those three turns. Admittedly, some have argued that that's just lucky for the Toad, then. But that's not how it is intended to work. The same argument can be made in the opposite direction; i.e., if the Toad misses turns and must remain a Toad for more than three rounds then that's just UNlucky for him.

And if you take the argument that a missed turn is still a turn, then any special items or abilities that you have that grant you something (such as a spell) at the start of a turn must still apply. Nowhere in the rules does it state that they don't apply if you miss a turn. So if a missed turn is still a turn, then anything that you get at the start of your turn you still get, even if you don't get to do anything else.

Missed turns cannot count toward the total time being a Toad because they are not turns. The Toad is a Toad for three turns. If those turns never happen, then the Toad never stops being a Toad.

But a "round" is made up of "turns". And if you don't count those turns, missed or not, then you're not even acknowledging the passage of time.

So then, if I'm stuck in the swamp as a toad, it's a missed turn do DO anything, but not a missed turn as a toad so I'm double penalized and have to take ANOTHER turn as a toad?? That's nuts! That's like saying if I'm suddenly somehow granted an additional turn while a toad, I now have to TAKE an additional turn AS a toad. Which is actually counter to what you just said the rules imply, even though it's entirely the opposite of your additional turn theory.

So then, if I'm stuck in the swamp as a toad, it's a missed turn do DO anything, but not a missed turn as a toad so I'm double penalized and have to take ANOTHER turn as a toad?? That's nuts!

Talisman is a very random game where a lot of good or a lot of crap can happen to you. I'm surprised you have a problem with the scenario you mention.

I think the problem is the lack of a complete 'turn sequence'. In my games we see the start of the turn as two things like this:

1. Turn starts

2. Start of the turn actions

If you see this as one thing I can definitely see why we disagree.

I don't have a problem with it, I'm saying it's ridiculous. As just eloquenty stated, a round is one set of turns for every player. WOULD THAT NOT TELL YOU THAT A ROUND COULD NOT BE COMPLETED UNLESS A MISSED TURN WAS COUNTED AS A TURN? the card for a toad does NOT say three movements, it says three TURNS. a missed TURN IS STILL A TURN. otherwise you couldn't call it a missed TURN. You'd have to remove a toad from the game in order for it to not experience it's MISSED TURN. and that is only possible with the transformed card.

The intent behind being turned into a Toad for three TURNS is that you must hop three spaces and face three potential encounters as a Toad. That cannot happen if missed turns count toward those three turns. Admittedly, some have argued that that's just lucky for the Toad, then. But that's not how it is intended to work. The same argument can be made in the opposite direction; i.e., if the Toad misses turns and must remain a Toad for more than three rounds then that's just UNlucky for him.

And if you take the argument that a missed turn is still a turn, then any special items or abilities that you have that grant you something (such as a spell) at the start of a turn must still apply. Nowhere in the rules does it state that they don't apply if you miss a turn. So if a missed turn is still a turn, then anything that you get at the start of your turn you still get, even if you don't get to do anything else.

Missed turns cannot count toward the total time being a Toad because they are not turns. The Toad is a Toad for three turns. If those turns never happen, then the Toad never stops being a Toad.

How do you know the intent is to hop three space? The intent is to be a toad for three turns. Otherwise the card would read you are a toad until you hop one space three times. You are dead wrong. If a toad gets a ride from the ferryman isn't that a turn? Yes. If you are use a card like the pathfinder or another stranger that lets you teleport for your movement isn't that a turn? Yes. If you are lost in the crags and cannot do anything for your turn did you still have a turn although missed? Yes. And yes you are correct, anything that affects your character for multiple turns absolutely keeps ticking away during missed turns. Why wouldn't they?

a round is one set of turns for every player. WOULD THAT NOT TELL YOU THAT A ROUND COULD NOT BE COMPLETED UNLESS A MISSED TURN WAS COUNTED AS A TURN?

Absolutely not.

Consider the spell TEMPORARY CHANGE:

"Cast on any character at any time. The character changes to the alignment of your choice for 2 ROUNDS (including this TURN )." (emphasis mine)

Notice that there is an explicit difference between ROUNDS and TURNS. This spell does not change another character's alignment for two TURNS. It changes the alignment for two ROUNDS. No matter how many turns that character gets for two rounds--be it zero or twenty--he is of whatever alignment the caster chooses. Here are two different ways that this can play out in regards to turns:

Scenario A: At the start of his turn Player 1 casts Temporary Change on Player 2. Player 2 must go two rounds AND turns (assuming he misses no turns) as the new alignment.

Scenario B: At the start of his turn Player 2 casts Temporary Change on Player 1. Player 1 must go two rounds but only 1 turn (assuming he misses no turns) as the new alignment.

In Scenario B the spell was cast after Player 1 had already taken his turn in that round. That means that he finishes out that round and plays the next round before he changes back. But since he had already taken his turn in the first round, the only turn that he plays as the new alignment is the turn in the next round.

Going back to the question regarding Toads, a player is turned into a toad for three TURNS, not three ROUNDS. It is possible that he can be a Toad for less than three rounds. It is possible that he can be a Toad for more than three rounds. It is possible that he can be a Toad for exactly three rounds. But he must be a Toad for three TURNS. And if you miss a TURN it doesn't count towards the total.

And yes, a round can exist where at least one player doesn't get a turn. That doesn't mean the round never happened. A round is the total order of play from player 1 to whatever the number is of the last player. Any or all of those players missing a turn has no bearing on the passing of the round.

But a "round" is made up of "turns". And if you don't count those turns, missed or not, then you're not even acknowledging the passage of time.

So then, if I'm stuck in the swamp as a toad, it's a missed turn do DO anything, but not a missed turn as a toad so I'm double penalized and have to take ANOTHER turn as a toad?? That's nuts! That's like saying if I'm suddenly somehow granted an additional turn while a toad, I now have to TAKE an additional turn AS a toad. Which is actually counter to what you just said the rules imply, even though it's entirely the opposite of your additional turn theory.

If you are granted an additional turn while you are a Toad, that counts as a turn toward your total turn count. Take this scenario for example:

- Player casts Temporal Warp at the start of his turn, thus granting him three turns in a row (that is, three TURNS in a single ROUND).

- On his first turn he goes to the City, visits the Enchantress, rolls a 1, and gets turned into a Toad.

- On his second turn he takes his first turn as a Toad.

- On his third turn he takes his second turn as a Toad.

- The next round he takes his third turn as a Toad, at the conclusion of which he returns to his normal character.

Look at that! Two ROUNDS, but three TURNS as a Toad.

So if you are granted an additional turn as a Toad, it counts as a turn.

If you lose a turn as a Toad, it doesn't count as a turn.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand you're just wrong. No one is saying that rounds come into play, but rather that a missed turn is indeed a turn. I don't care if whoever wrote temporal change was more specific. A missed turn is still a turn. You're basically arguing that missing a turn is a ninverse temporal warp. Nonsense. But at any rate we aren't going to agree obviously, all I can do is point to DE and say they get priority on rules over random internet guys myself included.

It's difficult to understand because there's no support for it and we disagree upon the flawed rules covering this.

I still think we disagree upon the turn sequence but maybe that's just me.

Another thing I disagree with you is your example of temporary change. Including this turn means, again in my group, that you start counting the 2 rounds from this turn,from the caster's turn. It doesn't matter where the 'original round' starts.

Consider the spell TEMPORARY CHANGE:

"Cast on any character at any time. The character changes to the alignment of your choice for 2 ROUNDS (including this TURN )." (emphasis mine)

Notice that there is an explicit difference between ROUNDS and TURNS. This spell does not change another character's alignment for two TURNS. It changes the alignment for two ROUNDS. No matter how many turns that character gets for two rounds--be it zero or twenty--he is of whatever alignment the caster chooses. Here are two different ways that this can play out in regards to turns:

Well, that's an example that doesn't prove much. Temporary change lasts for two rounds not for two turns. You cast it on anyone and wait until round 2 ends, not until that character's turn 2 ends. And reason for that is obvious. As you can cast it at any time it would have different duration depending on whether that character actually had his or her turn or it were your turn (or someone else's) if it lasted for two turns. The fact it lasts for two rounds is to make sure it always lasts the same.

For what it's worth, I played a game of Talisman Digital Edition last night and an AI character was Toaded by the Leprechaun Adventure Card on the Highland Entrance. On his next turn, he moved to the Crags and rolled a 2, triggering a missed turn. Sure enough the missed turn did not count towards his turns for being a Toad. I know the DE of the game isn't exactly a rules judge or anything, but I read this thread and had to share my observation.

However, I agree with others in this thread and in my games play it as if a Toad misses a turn it counts for their Toad turns. Being a Toad is already bad enough that you lose your stuff and typically lose a few life in the process.

Destroy Magic remains in effect until Character 1 actually takes a turn.

Quote a rule or FAQ for this and maybe I'll listen. although DE is not a 100% argument solver, in DE when you are toaded and miss a turn, it counts for one of your three toaded turns as it should.

So which is it? Does the digital edition count missed turns or not? One person says no. Another person says yes.

So then, if I'm stuck in the swamp as a toad, it's a missed turn do DO anything, but not a missed turn as a toad so I'm double penalized and have to take ANOTHER turn as a toad?? That's nuts!

Talisman is a very random game where a lot of good or a lot of crap can happen to you. I'm surprised you have a problem with the scenario you mention.

Just because you don't get to do anything during a turn does not mean you didn't have the turn. "Miss" in this instance, is a misnomer. You still have a turn, you just don't get to do anything during it.

Tempus fugit

If you're trying to convice me, you have failed since you provide no good reasoning (or at least not better than mine).

If you're trying to convice me, you have failed since you provide no good reasoning (or at least not better than mine).

Actually I have, earlier. (the day/night example) But as with me, evidence to the contrary doesn't change your opinion of the soundness of your argument.

And I can respect that