Alternatively, one of the other 'heavy fighters' with access to both elite pilot talents and systems slots is the E-wing.

You have limited access to elite pilot talents (although R2-D6 is an option), but then it's not like you can fit many in a squad anyway. I dunno.

The normal E-wing people use is Corran - Juke/Fire Control might work, giving him a boost to both shots and a defensive boost.

Juke/Sensor Jammer might be a nice call on Etahn A'baht - his primary job is to not die whilst the rest of the squad play the "free mangler cannons for everyone" game - Juke plus Sensor Jammer makes him a pretty hard target. Not sure who you'd support him with, though.

Corran could be great candidate for juke. You don't have repositional actions but evade/TL are good. With all the stress Bwing thrown around in the meta it may be safer than PtL.

Etahn. He could do the same as Corran but in don't think juke/ jammer is great. No modification of his dice. Maybe put jammer on him and add 3 juke equipped A-Wings.

Corran could be great candidate for juke. You don't have repositional actions but evade/TL are good. With all the stress Bwing thrown around in the meta it may be safer than PtL.

That would also leave your modification slot free for a stealth device, which would pair well with a sensor jammer and repeated evades - and lets you actually use your whole dial.

At the same time; might it be worth not using R2-D2; would any other astromechs be a good idea? BB-8 could give you a free barrel roll without messing with your actions....but nails you to your green dial again.

Its interesting how you mention predator defensively. I've viewed sensor jammer as a potential offensive card for similar reasons.

I think it was the philosopher and sage Kobe Bryant who said "you should always keep your defense offensive"

I wasn't ready for Kobe here. But that fits him perfectly.

My first riff on your theme would be:

Zuckuss (37)

G-1A Starfighter (28), Juke (2), Gunner (5), Fire-Control System (2)

Guri (41)

StarViper (30), Opportunist (4), Virago (1), Autothrusters (2), Sensor Jammer (4)

Serissu (22)

M3-A “Scyk” Interceptor (20), Juke (2)

Opportunist for Guri after all that token stripping goodness should be powerful. Decent defenses, with Serissu hiding behind an evade she can use offensively and defensively. The drawback to list list is a clear vulnerability to high-PS maneuver lists, but as I said this is just my first thoughts on working that Zuckuss/FCS/Gunner/Juke theme.

We were talking about this in our chat channel for the Pirate ship. The Scum faction really doesn't have high PS aces and FFG has made it so that's the best ship type in the game.

How would T-70 X-Wings fare in the Juke/Comm Relay setup? I can see that you could have 2.5 Rebel Ships with the following:

Poe Dameron (T70 X-Wing) 41

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters

R5-P9

Ello Asty (T70 X-Wing) 41

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters?

R2-D2

Rebel Operative (HWK-290) 18

Jan Ors

Or if you wanted to push the limit even more and see how fast the HWK-290 can go down:

Poe Dameron (T70 X-Wing) 41

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters

R5-P9

Red Squadron Veteran (T70 X-Wing) 37

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters?

R2-D2

Roark Garnet (HWK-290) 21

Jan Ors

Basically you setup the 2 T-70 X-Wings with an Evade token and never ever spend it, just regen when needed. Probably get murdered and I think you would either have to keep Roark at range for the PS12 and not have any help for two turtled T70s or you ram him in to keep block as many shots as possible and hope he lasts a round or two and clean up with Shenanigans.

I think it would be fun to fly. I am not convinced it would do well with swarms or ultra high PS ships as you just don't have a lot of attack dice. If it could survive and regen it might have a chance. And honestly, if it was any good, I figured someone would have mentioned it before page 6, but the fact that it is possible was kind of interesting.

How would T-70 X-Wings fare in the Juke/Comm Relay setup? I can see that you could have 2.5 Rebel Ships with the following:

Poe Dameron (T70 X-Wing) 41

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters

R5-P9

Ello Asty (T70 X-Wing) 41

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters?

R2-D2

Rebel Operative (HWK-290) 18

Jan Ors

Or if you wanted to push the limit even more and see how fast the HWK-290 can go down:

Poe Dameron (T70 X-Wing) 41

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters

R5-P9

Red Squadron Veteran (T70 X-Wing) 37

Juke

Comm Relay

Autothrusters?

R2-D2

Roark Garnet (HWK-290) 21

Jan Ors

Basically you setup the 2 T-70 X-Wings with an Evade token and never ever spend it, just regen when needed. Probably get murdered and I think you would either have to keep Roark at range for the PS12 and not have any help for two turtled T70s or you ram him in to keep block as many shots as possible and hope he lasts a round or two and clean up with Shenanigans.

I think it would be fun to fly. I am not convinced it would do well with swarms or ultra high PS ships as you just don't have a lot of attack dice. If it could survive and regen it might have a chance. And honestly, if it was any good, I figured someone would have mentioned it before page 6, but the fact that it is possible was kind of interesting.

This would probably fair better, but you have to give up Poe and Regen:

Red Squadron Veteran

Juke

Targeting Astromech

Comm Relay

Integrated Astromech

Red Squadron Veteran

Juke

Targeting Astromech

Comm Relay

Integrated Astromech

Kyle Katarn

Juke

Twin Laser Turret

Jan Ors

Moldy Crow

100pts

By examining only average or mean die rolling, the analysis fails to see the real potential for Juke. The main advantage Juke has over Predator is that it can "stack" with a good roll.

Average rolls are interesting, but hits against ships revolve around offensive outliers. For example, that time you rolled 3 hits and poor Soontir rolled only one evade. In the case of Predator you receive zero benefit on your best rolls, because it can only affect "bad" dice. Predator is at its most powerful on poor rolls, rolls where you achieve less than 3 hits. Against PS 2, it only gets its "extra" goodness if you rolled 2 blanks (assuming focus). The odds of you rolling 3 hits with a focus are quite high, (approximately 42%), which is significantly higher than your odds of rolling 2 blanks (approximately 14%). That means if you have a focus, Predator is useless to you approximately 42% of the time, which is enormous, and of the other times only improves your offense if it can take your hits past the threshold established by your opponent's evade dice. Against a 3 Agility ship at Range 3, you generally only get hits when you roll all 3 hits, so having Predator take your 0 or 1 hit roll into a 1 or 2 hit roll often will not net you any additional damage and there are no style points for "near misses" vs. "complete misses".

Juke is at its best when you have "good" dice, for example when you roll 3 hits, because it can make an already powerful outlier even MORE powerful by reducing evades, and every extra hit at this point directly causes damage. It does less for you on "bad" rolls than Predator, but those rolls are less likely to cause damage regardless. If you were to roll 3 hits (remember, that is 42% of the time on 3 dice with focus) Juke will increase the damage dealt dramatically or force the expenditure of a Focus, where Predator would have done nothing at all.

The bottom line is that Juke is most effective on good rolls vs. difficult targets, which is where most of us are looking for accuracy (example, trying to punch through 3 Agility), and Predator is most effective on bad rolls vs. easy targets. If you anticipate trouble with PS 2 Y-Wings, or Decimators, then Predator is likely the better choice. Against more difficult targets Juke is generally far more effective.

Would you rather have +1 hit every time you roll 0 hits naturally (Predator), or +1 hit every time you roll 3 hits naturally (Juke)? Juke vs. Predator isn't quite that straightforward, but it's close enough that this is exactly the question you should be asking yourself.

Haven't even read the rest of the thread from this point but had to comment.

This is why I spend time on these forums. KO, you make me smart because I just felt like Juke was better than some folks were giving it credit for. Then you make me feel stupid because you understand this game so much better than I do. Then you make me feel slightly smarter than I was because I read your post.

List building now and for the foreseeable future is severely constricted by NEEDING a way to deal with the mid to high PS Aces which are also very cost efficient. This tier 1 list includes:

• Fel
• Vader
• Whisper (provided you win the PS war)
• regen Corran
• BroBots (mid PS)
• regen Red Ace (mid-PS)

... and to a lesser extent some slightly less efficient options:

• regen Poe
• regen Miranda.

That tier 1 list will soon have the Inquisitor and Vessery added to the list.

You can either jump into the pilot skill / maneuverability / regeneration Ace Race yourself, or you can try and zone them out with stress. In my opinion, the list of top-tier viable squads without the stresshog is extremely small.

Scum can try and brute-force it with CrackBots or 4x TLT, but they have some very bad matchups there. I don't like scum overall as a faction at this point, because they completely lack a way to deal with PS9. We'll find out after the JumpMaster gets spoiled if Dengar can help here.

Rebels basically require the stresshog at this point. Dash + Corran is one of the very few Rebel squads that does well without it, but then that's because it has its own cost efficient PS10 ship.

Imperials have the best aces but only Palpatine and superior PS / flying to protect them. Crackswarm is very much a brute force solution, that while itself is mild power creep (crackshot = undercosted), still generally can't deal with opposing aces well.

Summary: If you're building a Rebel list, you almost automatically just start off with the stresshog and 74 more points to spend. If you don't have a stresshog, then you better have a REALLY good reason for not including it. The ship is simply too powerful a tool not to include. I don't see an obvious way to improve on KO's use of Juke in a rebel list. Kyle Katarn as a pilot is in my opinion still overcosted, but TLT and Juke are such good cards that they can make an otherwise mediocre ship useful again.

I'm just glad that Red Ace doesn't have access to an EPT, otherwise Red Ace + Juke + R2-D2 + Comm Relay would be insane.

I'm just glad that Red Ace doesn't have access to an EPT, otherwise Red Ace + Juke + R2-D2 + Comm Relay would be insane.

That would be crazy good.

List building now and for the foreseeable future is severely constricted by NEEDING a way to deal with the mid to high PS Aces which are also very cost efficient. This tier 1 list includes:

• Fel
• Vader
• Whisper (provided you win the PS war)
• regen Corran
• BroBots (mid PS)
• regen Red Ace (mid-PS)

... and to a lesser extent some slightly less efficient options:

• regen Poe
• regen Miranda.

That tier 1 list will soon have the Inquisitor and Vessery added to the list.

You can either jump into the pilot skill / maneuverability / regeneration Ace Race yourself, or you can try and zone them out with stress. In my opinion, the list of top-tier viable squads without the stresshog is extremely small

...

Imperials have the best aces but only Palpatine and superior PS / flying to protect them. Crackswarm is very much a brute force solution, that while itself is mild power creep (crackshot = undercosted), still generally can't deal with opposing aces well.

I think Imperials are going to get the big brother to the Crackswarm, the TIE Bomber.

Deadeye/Guidance Chip/Homing Missile or Crack Shot/Long Range Sensors/Homing Missile (I prefer the latter) run 25 points on a Gamma Squadron Veteran, 27 with a probable Extra Munitions. Unlike Crack Swarm, the Bomber is good as a singleton, and its firepower effect is 100% at Range 2-3 instead of a meager Range 1. That's a huge swath of board that becomes extremely dangerous to any of the high PS aces listed above. It doesn't shut them down Stresshog style, but it has the chance to take out large percentages of hit points. It also generates enough damage quickly that Regen has a much shorter time to work. The only Tier 1 ship that's not afraid of taking a double modified Homing Missile shot is an IG88, and they are the most susceptible of that list to the Imperial's classic strength, the high PS ace. It is not as certain an effect as the Stresshog generates, but it can be more decisive, and it works on every ship. As the Stresshog is more prevalent, more and more players will shift toward ships that fight well while stressed.

I'm just glad that Red Ace doesn't have access to an EPT, otherwise Red Ace + Juke + R2-D2 + Comm Relay would be insane.

That would be crazy good.

Could give Red Ace R2-D6 and integrated astromech though. Admittedly not as epic as R2-D2 but could combo ability with juke.

I'm just glad that Red Ace doesn't have access to an EPT, otherwise Red Ace + Juke + R2-D2 + Comm Relay would be insane.

That would be crazy good.

Could give Red Ace R2-D6 and integrated astromech though. Admittedly not as epic as R2-D2 but could combo ability with juke.

The IncRedible Hulk. Make him angry, he gets an Evade and hits you harder.

Green Squadron pilot with:

Title awing test pilot

Chardaan refit

Crack shot

Juke

X 5 times

Btw I call this list 'The Jukes of Hazzard'

Jukes of Hazzard FTW. Great name.

By examining only average or mean die rolling, the analysis fails to see the real potential for Juke. The main advantage Juke has over Predator is that it can "stack" with a good roll.

Average rolls are interesting, but hits against ships revolve around offensive outliers. For example, that time you rolled 3 hits and poor Soontir rolled only one evade. In the case of Predator you receive zero benefit on your best rolls, because it can only affect "bad" dice. Predator is at its most powerful on poor rolls, rolls where you achieve less than 3 hits. Against PS 2, it only gets its "extra" goodness if you rolled 2 blanks (assuming focus). The odds of you rolling 3 hits with a focus are quite high, (approximately 42%), which is significantly higher than your odds of rolling 2 blanks (approximately 14%). That means if you have a focus, Predator is useless to you approximately 42% of the time, which is enormous, and of the other times only improves your offense if it can take your hits past the threshold established by your opponent's evade dice. Against a 3 Agility ship at Range 3, you generally only get hits when you roll all 3 hits, so having Predator take your 0 or 1 hit roll into a 1 or 2 hit roll often will not net you any additional damage and there are no style points for "near misses" vs. "complete misses".

Juke is at its best when you have "good" dice, for example when you roll 3 hits, because it can make an already powerful outlier even MORE powerful by reducing evades, and every extra hit at this point directly causes damage. It does less for you on "bad" rolls than Predator, but those rolls are less likely to cause damage regardless. If you were to roll 3 hits (remember, that is 42% of the time on 3 dice with focus) Juke will increase the damage dealt dramatically or force the expenditure of a Focus, where Predator would have done nothing at all.

The bottom line is that Juke is most effective on good rolls vs. difficult targets, which is where most of us are looking for accuracy (example, trying to punch through 3 Agility), and Predator is most effective on bad rolls vs. easy targets. If you anticipate trouble with PS 2 Y-Wings, or Decimators, then Predator is likely the better choice. Against more difficult targets Juke is generally far more effective.

Would you rather have +1 hit every time you roll 0 hits naturally (Predator), or +1 hit every time you roll 3 hits naturally (Juke)? Juke vs. Predator isn't quite that straightforward, but it's close enough that this is exactly the question you should be asking yourself.

Haven't even read the rest of the thread from this point but had to comment.

This is why I spend time on these forums. KO, you make me smart because I just felt like Juke was better than some folks were giving it credit for. Then you make me feel stupid because you understand this game so much better than I do. Then you make me feel slightly smarter than I was because I read your post.

This describes every conversation I've had with KO ever on anything.

List building now and for the foreseeable future is severely constricted by NEEDING a way to deal with the mid to high PS Aces which are also very cost efficient. This tier 1 list includes:

• Fel
• Vader
• Whisper (provided you win the PS war)
• regen Corran
• BroBots (mid PS)
• regen Red Ace (mid-PS)

... and to a lesser extent some slightly less efficient options:

• regen Poe
• regen Miranda.

That tier 1 list will soon have the Inquisitor and Vessery added to the list.

You can either jump into the pilot skill / maneuverability / regeneration Ace Race yourself, or you can try and zone them out with stress. In my opinion, the list of top-tier viable squads without the stresshog is extremely small.

Scum can try and brute-force it with CrackBots or 4x TLT, but they have some very bad matchups there. I don't like scum overall as a faction at this point, because they completely lack a way to deal with PS9. We'll find out after the JumpMaster gets spoiled if Dengar can help here.

Rebels basically require the stresshog at this point. Dash + Corran is one of the very few Rebel squads that does well without it, but then that's because it has its own cost efficient PS10 ship.

Imperials have the best aces but only Palpatine and superior PS / flying to protect them. Crackswarm is very much a brute force solution, that while itself is mild power creep (crackshot = undercosted), still generally can't deal with opposing aces well.

Summary: If you're building a Rebel list, you almost automatically just start off with the stresshog and 74 more points to spend. If you don't have a stresshog, then you better have a REALLY good reason for not including it. The ship is simply too powerful a tool not to include. I don't see an obvious way to improve on KO's use of Juke in a rebel list. Kyle Katarn as a pilot is in my opinion still overcosted, but TLT and Juke are such good cards that they can make an otherwise mediocre ship useful again.

I'm just glad that Red Ace doesn't have access to an EPT, otherwise Red Ace + Juke + R2-D2 + Comm Relay would be insane.

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

Perhaps, but you can equip only so many aces pointwise in a list. Isnt a balance of quantity and quality generally better? Say, one or two aces and one or two generic fillers which let your opponent spread fire? The average ace with upgrades costa around 30-35 points I think.

I think the best ships are simply the best ships. As long as you can reasonably fill out the 100 point total with them, then building with a small number of high quality ships can work very well. Backfilling with cost efficient filler is fine, but not needed. The number of generic-free competitive 2 and 3 ship lists is pretty long. The stresshog, in a way, doesn't even count as a "generic" ship because it revolves around R3-A2 which is unique.

Perhaps, but you can equip only so many aces pointwise in a list. Isnt a balance of quantity and quality generally better? Say, one or two aces and one or two generic fillers which let your opponent spread fire? The average ace with upgrades costa around 30-35 points I think.

Partially, but for p.s. The quantity list can quickly break down, as the point differential doesn't give quite enough quantity of the higher firepower ships. While it can work with a force multiplied 2 attack list, consider a 3 attack list, running 4 ships usually (exception for interceptor/kihraxz)

The extra ship will often crumble before firing, while it slows the progress of the quality list, it rarely gets to bring the increased firepower to bear long enough to matter

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

The downside to that is a player like me is a swarm style player. It's rough out there for a bunch of mooks.

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

The downside to that is a player like me is a swarm style player. It's rough out there for a bunch of mooks.

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

The downside to that is a player like me is a swarm style player. It's rough out there for a bunch of mooks.

Me too, I love running multiple generics. I hope they bring back some love for that in the form of synergies like 'title: squadron: requires 4 or more of the same ship: increase the pilot skill of all these ships by 2' and upgrades like swarm tactics.

The downside is going from 2 to 4 really doesn't do much against Soontir, BroBots etc.

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

The downside to that is a player like me is a swarm style player. It's rough out there for a bunch of mooks.

Me too, I love running multiple generics. I hope they bring back some love for that in the form of synergies like 'title: squadron: requires 4 or more of the same ship: increase the pilot skill of all these ships by 2' and upgrades like swarm tactics.

The downside is going from 2 to 4 really doesn't do much against Soontir, BroBots etc.

Im sure Alex and co. will come up with a much better and creative solution than I have for swarm synergies

This is a well said statement I've thought for a while. despite many options we still have that top ceiling to deal with.

The competitive meta has always existed at whatever the ceiling was at that time. The ceiling however keeps nudging upwards.

Between TLT and a variety of Aces that are relatively cost efficient, it's really pushing generic ships out of the meta. There are a number of Aces that have absolute cost efficiency about on par with the standard "gatekeeper" generic ships, but also have the "free" advantage of being higher PS, and on top of that having capabilities that aren't even directly factored into the brute force cost efficiency. (i.e. Soontir Fel arc dodging). When you have Aces that are essentially better in every respect to a vanilla generic Z-95 or B-wing, then of course you will see less generic ships. And the number of these kinds of Aces is increasing.

The downside to that is a player like me is a swarm style player. It's rough out there for a bunch of mooks.

Me too, I love running multiple generics. I hope they bring back some love for that in the form of synergies like 'title: squadron: requires 4 or more of the same ship: increase the pilot skill of all these ships by 2' and upgrades like swarm tactics.

The downside is going from 2 to 4 really doesn't do much against Soontir, BroBots etc

And PS 13 Vader with three PS 3 advanced buddies is bad news.

PS11 Soontir + Royal Guard at PS 8 and 2 alphas at 3 is also weird.

------------------------

Swarm Synergy should allow for some action sharing, combined fire, or other uses for an Attack. If the Ace dodges your arc and you can use your now lack of attack to take an evade or counter boost/BR out of their arc then you'd have a much more dog-fighty game.