The card says the beginning of the game. Im not "tossing out some rules", I'm saying characters begin the game only once. You are saying otherwise, which is counterintuitive.

And by the same token; if I die but select the Knight as my new character, according to your take on the rules, I wouldn't be getting the sword and armour because I'm not starting THE game instead of just STARTING the game

And by the same token; if I die but select the Knight as my new character, according to your take on the rules, I wouldn't be getting the sword and armour because I'm not starting THE game instead of just STARTING the game

I will have to disagree with this. If you die and take the Knight as your new character, that character begins the game at that moment.

Guys, you are having a discussion on "nothing", because Transformed Woodland card has not enough information to cover this issue and no rules will support either one interpretation or the other.

There are some cases in Talisman, quite a huge number by my personal experience, where all you can do is to make yourself a house rule and wait for an official answer, if it ever comes.

When a character gets killed, the player may start again with another character, unless the Crown of Command has been reached, etc... this is covered by the rules. No idea about a character entering the game with Transformed; basically it's the same character turned into another form, so he's not actually "starting" the game, but it's quite understandable that the question is being asked. The question cannot receive a final answer here, that's for sure.

True. But it sure has made for a lively topic.

I like to think of this as a good place to hash out the pros and cons. Sometimes your argument gains support, sometimes you have to concede to the majority and adjust your interpretations.

And it's always a great group with tremendous knowledge and experience.

The card says the beginning of the game. Im not "tossing out some rules", I'm saying characters begin the game only once. You are saying otherwise, which is counterintuitive.

When the character cards were written Transformation hadn't even been considered. So they were worded with, "You begin the game with," because there was no other way of changing characters mid-game, apart from being killed. And yet, when a character is killed and restarts as a new character--even in the middle of the game--he gets all of the special abilities listed on the card, including the ones that say, "You begin the game with..." At that instant the new character is well beyond the beginning of the game. So by this rationalization the new character in the middle of the game would not get the "You begin the game with" abilities, seeing as it is not the beginning of the game.

However, with the introduction of Transformation, they couldn't exactly go through and rewrite all of the character cards in light of it. The character cards retained their original wording, and yet the intent of Transformation was to provide the transformed character with all of the special abilities--including the "You begin the game with" ones--of the new character. You don't have to try to decipher if this is somehow a beginning of the game for the character or not. You simply have to look at the intent of Transformation. It intends that you get whatever that character would get. The Merchant would get 5 gold (but only if he had less than 5). The Sorceress would get a spell (but only if she had none before the Transformation). The Dread Knight would get a War Horse. The Chivalric Knight would get a Riding Horse. The Gladiator would get a Helmet. So on and so forth.

You are interpreting Transformation incorrectly, completely ignoring both its intent and the timing with which it was introduced to the overall game as it pertains to previously written cards.

Guys, you are having a discussion on "nothing", because Transformed Woodland card has not enough information to cover this issue and no rules will support either one interpretation or the other.

That's where I totally disagree. The wording on the Transformed card is not 'nothing' going by the card its pretty clear, There's no 'cough' rules but the card itself says all you need to know. Anyway big deal.. If you get the knight then you get a sword and amour big deal. Hardly game-braking... Sure you can win the game with them but given everything else in talisman.. I mean come on.

Guys, you are having a discussion on "nothing", because Transformed Woodland card has not enough information to cover this issue and no rules will support either one interpretation or the other.

That's where I totally disagree. The wording on the Transformed card is not 'nothing' going by the card its pretty clear, There's no 'cough' rules but the card itself says all you need to know. Anyway big deal.. If you get the knight then you get a sword and amour big deal. Hardly game-braking... Sure you can win the game with them but given everything else in talisman.. I mean come on.

But... and this is for you as well, Osbo25, what about after you transform back? Does everything go away that you just had?

Not seeking absolute answers here, just wondering if there's a consensus opinion

When the character cards were written Transformation hadn't even been considered.

- probably not

So they were worded with, "You begin the game with," because there was no other way of changing characters mid-game, apart from being killed.

- so there were ways of changing character mid-game. Also, creators has insight into material from previous editions.

At that instant the new character is well beyond the beginning of the game.

- I never claimed otherwise

So by this rationalization the new character in the middle of the game would not get the "You begin the game with" abilities, seeing as it is not the beginning of the game.

- he would, because he begins the game at that moment, even if the game itself began earlier. That's why on characters it says "you begin the game" , and not "at the beginning of the game". They worded it this way because characters could be changed during game since the base game.

However, with the introduction of Transformation, they couldn't exactly go through and rewrite all of the character cards in light of it.

- no they couldn't

the intent of Transformation was to provide the transformed character with all of the special abilities--including the "You begin the game with" ones--of the new character.

- was the intent to give character you turn back to such abilities? Because by your logic they do. And it makes zero sense that a merchant transformed into a troll gains 5 gold when the effect ends.

You are interpreting Transformation incorrectly

- says you

The truth is, this card is such a mess that there's no solution or ruling that will be both simple and sensible.

But... and this is for you as well, Osbo25, what about after you transform back? Does everything go away that you just had?

Osbo proposes interpreting the card in the simplest, most straightforward possible way. By that logic character would keep everything they got, because nothing on the card or in the rules says otherwise.

You just get all special abilities of the character you turned into nothing when you turn back. Same as being toaded really. You have to take it as that because turning back says nothing on the card itself just turning into is clarified. So if you turn into the knight you get a sword and armour but if you were the knight and turn back you get nothing because you already got your sword and armour. I think even if you become the knight again (which is possible) you would still get a sword and armour, but again thats upto the playing group house rules or anything else you come up with.

The rules just are clear about turning into not turning back so we have to go by what we know and find the fairest way of sorting it out.

Its a tough one, seems the only way to do it is by house rules that your group agrees to. It just doesn't seem right that one can gain a bunch of free items, like potions, and hang onto them, but at the same time it seems like if you morphed to a character that begins the game with a spell, gaining and keeping the spell upon reversion seems to make sense.

Its a tough one, seems the only way to do it is by house rules that your group agrees to. It just doesn't seem right that one can gain a bunch of free items, like potions, and hang onto them, but at the same time it seems like if you morphed to a character that begins the game with a spell, gaining and keeping the spell upon reversion seems to make sense.

Well remember it is a random draw. So it does come with a lot of luck.

This is all fine if you think of it only as a "gaining" character. But what if you have someone who loses items because of it? You were evil but drew a good character, now you have to drop the Rune Sword. Or maybe you can't have the Maiden now. Those loss effects happen and stay because of the transformation. Why would the gains not be the same? Granted, you might be lucky enough to go back and reclaim them, but that's wishful thinking with most of the players I know.

Taking the suggestion on treating it much like toading (which is where the idea probably originated) you could at least say drop any morphed gained items when you become your original character again. But that's still not a great answer and can obviously lead to more arguments. And it gets even clunkier when you add in spells or attributes.

But I would say that's the best approach, considering how they've crafted other events; gain or lose depending on the new character, then lose (discard) all the temporary items once done (craft/strength changes aside from those gained while temporary character, as well as new spells, etc.) and good luck going back to get your crap before someone else does.

Now some might argue against keeping any earned strength or craft (which happens when toaded) but then that's the whole freaking point of the transformation card to begin with. As Uvatha pointed out, it's a random dumb luck card, much like Puck. It could benefit you and hinder others just as easily as it might hurt you and help them.

Poof! it came. Poof! it's gone. Poof! you're screwed.

Poof! it came. Poof! it's gone. Poof! you're screwed.

Good overall description of a game of talisman .

Guys, you are having a discussion on "nothing", because Transformed Woodland card has not enough information to cover this issue and no rules will support either one interpretation or the other.

That's where I totally disagree. The wording on the Transformed card is not 'nothing' going by the card its pretty clear, There's no 'cough' rules but the card itself says all you need to know. Anyway big deal.. If you get the knight then you get a sword and amour big deal. Hardly game-braking... Sure you can win the game with them but given everything else in talisman.. I mean come on.

But... and this is for you as well, Osbo25, what about after you transform back? Does everything go away that you just had?

Not seeking absolute answers here, just wondering if there's a consensus opinion

No, you keep whatever you gained as the transformed character, unless there is something inherent in your restored character that prevents you from keeping it. If you are the Ninja but then you transform into the Dread Knight, you get a War Horse so long as you are the Dread Knight. But once you return to being the Ninja you must ditch the War Horse. If you are the Troll and transform into the Sprite you get two spells. But once you transform back into the Troll you lose the spells because his craft is too low (assuming you haven't raised it to 4 or better).

You gain the items by virtue of the transformation. They belong to your player regardless of any future transformations.

So by this rationalization the new character in the middle of the game would not get the "You begin the game with" abilities, seeing as it is not the beginning of the game.

- he would, because he begins the game at that moment, even if the game itself began earlier. That's why on characters it says "you begin the game" , and not "at the beginning of the game". They worded it this way because characters could be changed during game since the base game.

There is only one beginning to the game. If you are going to argue that a transformed character doesn't get the "you begin the game with" special abilities because it's not the beginning of the game, then you must also argue against a new character in the middle of the game getting those same perks. If a player's character is killed he doesn't begin the game with a new character. He continues the game with a new character. There are no multiple beginnings to the game. There is only one beginning to the game.

But since there are times in the game that characters change--be it a permanent change such as dying and coming back as a new character or a temporary change such as Transform--the special abilities that would apply at the beginning of the game also apply at the moment of change.

In response to an anticipated question based off of this explanation, I would not argue that a transformed character returning to his original character gets the originals character's special perks a second time. Since Transform is a temporary change, deep down the character never stops being the original character. It's just that for a few turns the original character looks and behaves like another character.

why is a character coming into a game already in progress, not considered to be "beginning the game"? So you're saying that the wizard doesn't get spells because he didn't start at THE beginning of the game?! Then the knight doesn't get a sword?!

now you're specifically ignoring the printed rules and instructions ON the cards. I'm confused, one minute it's "by the book as written", the next it's "no, that's not what they mean".

why is a character coming into a game already in progress, not considered to be "beginning the game"? So you're saying that the wizard doesn't get spells because he didn't start at THE beginning of the game?! Then the knight doesn't get a sword?!

now you're specifically ignoring the printed rules and instructions ON the cards. I'm confused, one minute it's "by the book as written", the next it's "no, that's not what they mean".

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that they DO get those things, but NOT because it's some "beginning of the game." There is only one beginning of the game.

Whenever a character comes into the game--be it at the beginning of the game or be it in the middle of the game either through death or through Transformation--they get whatever their special abilities ascribe to them as being received at the beginning of the game. This is not because it's some arbitrary or random "beginning of the game for that character." That's not it at all. It's because the intent of Transformation was to give them those things.

However, with Transformation, that character also gets whatever the transformed character already had. And when the transformation is over, whatever the new character earned--be it objects, followers, spells, etc.--is kept by the character when he returns to his normal state.

I am specifically objecting to those who claim that the language of "You begin the game with" means that they don't get those things. When Transformation is in play, whatever is ascribed under special abilities is received by the character. The Dread Knight gets the War Horse. The Chivalric Knight gets the Riding Horse. The Wizard gets his spells. The Merchant gets 5 gold. So on and so forth.

ah, my apologies sir.

ah, my apologies sir.

Most gracious, sir, but unnecessary. I appreciate the opportunity to provide clarity. If I failed to get my point across clearly, I should have chosen better words.