Drew the “transformed” card in the Woodlands, became The Knight for three turns. Knight card states that you begin the game with sword and armour. Do you still get those items at that point? (or any character’s starting objects, spells, etc.) and if so, do you get to keep these items when you morph back to your original character?

Also had to draw Dungeon cards after Dark Denizens appeared. One player drew the Hunchback while in The Highlands. However, Hunchback states he will leave you when you leave The Dungeon.

1. Can you have him outside the Dungeon in this instance? and if not, how do you address this issue; drawer gains nothing (discard)? Draw again?...
2. If you were to properly draw him while in the Dungeon and you leave, where does he go; discard? last space you were on?...

Interesting, I would say yes you get the knights items and get to keep them when you revert since they are now just unattached items, and that the hunchback would immediately be discarded as though even though it says when you leave the dungeon, it is clearly meant that the hunchback cannot survive outside of the dungeon.

Actually upon reflection the knight says at the beginning of the game, this is clearly not the beginning of the game, so no sword and shield.

but it is the beginning of the game as far as the knight is concerned

Not arguing, merely playing devil's advocate here. I personally didn't feel it was fair to suddenly get and keep them. Even argued against getting them period, though it was my character. Was trying to play nice with someone who was taking a beating at the time.

No, Knight says "you begin the game", not " at the beginning of the game"

So yay sword and shield.

Yeah I suppose you're right but seems wrong to me.

I does doesn't it...

Also had to draw Dungeon cards after Dark Denizens appeared. One player drew the Hunchback while in The Highlands. However, Hunchback states he will leave you when you leave The Dungeon.

1. Can you have him outside the Dungeon in this instance? and if not, how do you address this issue; drawer gains nothing (discard)? Draw again?...
2. If you were to properly draw him while in the Dungeon and you leave, where does he go; discard? last space you were on?...

The card says:

You must discard the Hunchback when you exit the Dungeon .

Counterintuitive as it sounds, the card works outside of the dungeon. You discard it to the discard pile only when you exit the dungeon, not when you're outside of it.

And even if you wanna play with a more realistic take on the hunchback, it says so right on the card that you discard him. I think that answers where he goes.

While technically correct it clearly goes against the intended function of the card, you're not supposed to be able to have this follower outside of the dungeon, period, sometimes common sense trumps exact wording, because you could only lose him if you went back in the dungeon and then left? Makes no sense. Not like talisman has to make sense but there is a point at which sticking to the wrote word, which they clearly never considered the above situation, is nonsense.

While technically correct it clearly goes against the intended function of the card, you're not supposed to be able to have this follower outside of the dungeon, period, sometimes common sense trumps exact wording, because you could only lose him if you went back in the dungeon and then left? Makes no sense. Not like talisman has to make sense but there is a point at which sticking to the wrote word, which they clearly never considered the above situation, is nonsense.

I know and I'm inclined to play with RAI (rules as intended), not RAW (rules as written).

With RAI, when a character finds hunchback in the highland, he must immediately discard it.

won't argue with trash discard of the hunchback when drawn outside the dungeon, but I think I disagree with trash discarding when a character leaves the dungeon. There are many times where "discard" merely means to drop the items where you are. If I discard an object to pick up a weapon due to carry limits, I don't throw the object in the discard pile. It is simply left on the space where I am. In this instance, the hunchback would stay wherever I was last in the dungeon as it doesn't say "off to the discard pile".

Discard never means leaving on the space. Ditch means leaving on the space. Discard means putting on the discard pile. (duh)

Quote from the rules:

If a character ditches Followers or Objects onto a draw cards space (see “Ditching Followers and Objects” on page 16), he may only draw enough cards to make up the given number that may be drawn. For example, a character ends his move on a Draw 1 Card space and then ditches one of his Objects. He does not draw any cards now since there is already a card on his space. A character may ditch Followers or Objects on a space to avoid drawing more cards, but he may not take them back during the same turn. Therefore, any Followers and Objects that are left on the space become available for other characters to take if they land on that space.

There's no discard here.

Discard never means leaving on the space. Ditch means leaving on the space. Discard means putting on the discard pile. (duh)

Quote from the rules:

If a character ditches Followers or Objects onto a draw cards space (see “Ditching Followers and Objects” on page 16), he may only draw enough cards to make up the given number that may be drawn. For example, a character ends his move on a Draw 1 Card space and then ditches one of his Objects. He does not draw any cards now since there is already a card on his space. A character may ditch Followers or Objects on a space to avoid drawing more cards, but he may not take them back during the same turn. Therefore, any Followers and Objects that are left on the space become available for other characters to take if they land on that space.

There's no discard here.

wow, that was surprisingly spiteful. Have I beaten you in a game recently? Because I'm somewhat surprised at the vehemence regarding a simple rules inquiry.

Not going to go digging, but I can find just as many references mentioning "discard" as in drop on the space (though sadly, most probably won't be in bold face type)

But to each his own. This is a forum of fans, not the College of Cardinals. We can agree to disagree on interpretation, though maybe not application.

I'm sorry if I came across as agressive. Not intended.

" but I can find just as many references mentioning "discard" as in drop on the space"

Provide a quote from the rules please.

mmmm... no. you win, I'm wrong. congratulations. put a gold star next to your name.

thanks to everyone else who helped clarify the initial issues before this became a semantics pissing contest over a freaking board game.

mmmm... no. you win, I'm wrong. congratulations. put a gold star next to your name.

I don't know why you're trying to heat up the discussion, but I will not participate, sorry.

Transformed is a card with a few grey areas: one is whether you get your "start of the game" bonuses or not, the other is whether you get your character tokens, in case you draw a character that uses tokens.

I'm inclined to say yes to both, because of simplicity and most of all because characters that use tokens have no real ability without tokens. Thematically it makes no sense that a character transformed into the Knight should get a Sword and an Armour from nothing, but I can't think of making separate cases between tokens, starting Objects and Spells.

The Hunchback can be drawn outside the Dungeon and if this happens, it can be used outside the Dungeon until you enter the Dungeon and exit again. Designer's intent might have been different, but that's it.

As for the dispute about "discarding on a space", the game uses the keyword "ditch" to distinguish the effect of leaving cards on the spaces from sending cards to the discard pile, which uses the word "discard". The Hunchback is "discarded", not "ditched".

If someone tried to keep the hunchback outside of the dungeon, whether or not the specific wording supports it, I'd throw em out for being a jackass. There has to be some level of intelligent behavior for players if you want to keep the game fun, the hunchback knows his way around the dungeon and can't bear to be in the sunlight, so trying to keep him and use him in any other region is a mockery to common sense.

Your mention of tokens then brings up fate. Tokens I could see being tied specifically to that temporary character as a unique ability, hence the original character couldn't use them. But what of additional fate? If you change back, does the fate you might have gained (or lost) remain? You just go back to where you were? Or lives as well, for that matter? What if you gain any values in those areas while the temporary character is in play? Specifically, what if you gain in those areas BECAUSE of the character you draw?

It's a slippery slope I think, which probably just has to be hashed out with all involved at the time of occurrence.

And as to discard vs ditch, a matter of semantics and rules clarification. But Bludgeon is correct and we have made certain to clarify that definition where applicable.

He seems to know his rules quite well, from what I've seen. AND how to choose an appropriate name.

Transformed: Draw a character at random from the unused character cards, lay it on top of your character card and then discard this card. Treat the new character as your character, using all printed values, special abilities, etc. After 3 turns, you revert back to your original form. Return the new character card to the unused character cards.

This is actually a really poorly worded card. It sounds like to me its "meant" to be a temporary change completely but the wording leaves a lot to be desired. So for three turns you use the values from that card, meaning tokens, 4 lives, a restock of fate, sword and shield if knight etc, but at the conclusion of three turns, all of that is set aside, meaning back to your original remaining life and fate, tokens are then discarded as if your character died,and I would even argue the sword and shield disappear with the character just as magically as they appeared.

To me, that seems the most logical interpretation. Hocus pocus... they come, proof! they go. But it makes for a real pain tracking/verifying old items and values. And again, should any gains be treated as permanent, or as with the toad, transitory? I would say yes, just as any losses, hence the point of the card in the first place. But if THOSE are allowed/intended, why would objects, followers, spells and gold NOT be?

Splitting hairs, but I can see an easy argument from some players.

Added craft and strength tokens would never leave consideration, for example if you are strength 3 craft 3 character and had gained 3 strength points via gameplay, then transformed to a strength 5 craft 1 character, your effective stats when that character would be strength 8 craft 1, and upon reversion strength 6 craft 3, any trophies or tokens turned in while the transformed character would remain.

Your mention of tokens then brings up fate. Tokens I could see being tied specifically to that temporary character as a unique ability, hence the original character couldn't use them. But what of additional fate? If you change back, does the fate you might have gained (or lost) remain? You just go back to where you were? Or lives as well, for that matter? What if you gain any values in those areas while the temporary character is in play? Specifically, what if you gain in those areas BECAUSE of the character you draw?

It's a slippery slope I think, which probably just has to be hashed out with all involved at the time of occurrence.

There is no reason why fate and lives should not remain, since they remain also if you are turned into a Toad. Since the card has no rules saying that you lose attributes gained, unlike the Toad, why should you think you would lose them when reverting back to the original form?

Only special effects from cards override the normal rules of the game. If no exceptions are stated, apply the normal rules of the game.

Transformed: Draw a character at random from the unused character cards, lay it on top of your character card and then discard this card. Treat the new character as your character, using all printed values, special abilities, etc. After 3 turns, you revert back to your original form. Return the new character card to the unused character cards.

This is actually a really poorly worded card. It sounds like to me its "meant" to be a temporary change completely but the wording leaves a lot to be desired. So for three turns you use the values from that card, meaning tokens, 4 lives, a restock of fate, sword and shield if knight etc, but at the conclusion of three turns, all of that is set aside, meaning back to your original remaining life and fate, tokens are then discarded as if your character died,and I would even argue the sword and shield disappear with the character just as magically as they appeared.

Transformed is worded poorly, but could not have been worded better considering the space available on a Talisman card text box. If the intention was to introduce a perfectly designed card, it should not have been designed.

The character says that you have to consider all printed values as if those were belonging to your character, which is not very difficult to do. Reverting back to the original form means to use your original character card again, nothing else. There is no reason to lose anything you gained because of the transformation, except maybe character special tokens which are removed from the game if the corresponding character is killed.

But hey, we don't know if you should get character tokens and starting possessions, so it's better to hope that a FAQ or official clarification considers that.

The character says that you have to consider all printed values as if those were belonging to your character, which is not very difficult to do. Reverting back to the original form means to use your original character card again, nothing else. There is no reason to lose anything you gained because of the transformation, except maybe character special tokens which are removed from the game if the corresponding character is killed.

I think some confusion might come from the following line of thinking:

when you become a knight you gain a sword and shield, because printed text says you being the game with sword and shield. One could argue that Life: 4 printed on the card also indicates that you begin with 4 life. Therefore one could be inclined to think that since you gain a sword and a shield, you should also start with 4 life. However, even if you want to play like that, I'd have no idea if you should reset your life to 4 or gain 4 lives (at this point rules become so convoluted and weird one should take a step back and recognize that line of thinking as flawed).

Therefore, I suggest to ignore changing current fate and life when changing the character card, even if from some standpoint it seems to make sense.

Maybe someday we will get an expansion with more cards with similar effect and with a comprehensive explanation of how to apply it written in the expansion's rules sheet.

The character says that you have to consider all printed values as if those were belonging to your character, which is not very difficult to do. Reverting back to the original form means to use your original character card again, nothing else. There is no reason to lose anything you gained because of the transformation, except maybe character special tokens which are removed from the game if the corresponding character is killed.

I think some confusion might come from the following line of thinking:

when you become a knight you gain a sword and shield, because printed text says you being the game with sword and shield. One could argue that Life: 4 printed on the card also indicates that you begin with 4 life. Therefore one could be inclined to think that since you gain a sword and a shield, you should also start with 4 life. However, even if you want to play like that, I'd have no idea if you should reset your life to 4 or gain 4 lives (at this point rules become so convoluted and weird one should take a step back and recognize that line of thinking as flawed).

Therefore, I suggest to ignore changing current fate and life when changing the character card, even if from some standpoint it seems to make sense.

Maybe someday we will get an expansion with more cards with similar effect and with a comprehensive explanation of how to apply it written in the expansion's rules sheet.

But there are already lots of effects that change your Strength and Craft values, or your life and fate values during the game. They generate frequent questions, but can be understood by applying existing rules.To make things short, changes to Strength and Craft value affect your current Strength and Craft, while changing life and fate values don't.

Transformed says you only "use" the printed values; on the contrary Urdr Stranger uses the word "set your life/fate to your life/fate value", which is different.