but the whole purpose of the transform is the potential loss (or gain) you might encounter from being the new character; good so ditch the Rune Sword or Evil so no trips to the Chapel, etc. And with that, any loss or gain of strength or craft or lives or fates. So the best method to use, following the standard theme, is to gain the physical form and objects, keep any loss or gain to values resulting from being said character, then removing the temporary objects when reverting back, maintaining the previous rankings, plus or minus any gained value markers less any additional remaining from the temporary character.

So if I was a strength 3 previously, changed to a strength 5, but kill an enemy and turn in the trophy for an additional value, I would then be back to the old character with a strength of 4.

Seems simple enough, don't it?!

and the Hunchback still goes in the trash!

So your life value and fate value will change, but not the actual amount if lives and fate you have. That makes good sense.

the values (potential levels) go up (or down) for only the length of time you are that character. Once you change back, you are back to the original character's values. But any lost or gained points in any values remain in place. So if your new character only had a fate of two, causing you to reduce down from an original five, you come back as having the value of 5 again, but with only 2 counters in place.

but you happened to be gifted fate in some way, during your transformed state, you would keep those fate after changing back to the character with 2 value

you would never keep the temporary character's increased or decreased values, only the effects of that change

but the whole purpose of the transform is the potential loss (or gain) you might encounter from being the new character; good so ditch the Rune Sword or Evil so no trips to the Chapel, etc. And with that, any loss or gain of strength or craft or lives or fates. So the best method to use, following the standard theme, is to gain the physical form and objects, keep any loss or gain to values resulting from being said character, then removing the temporary objects when reverting back, maintaining the previous rankings, plus or minus any gained value markers less any additional remaining from the temporary character.

So if I was a strength 3 previously, changed to a strength 5, but kill an enemy and turn in the trophy for an additional value, I would then be back to the old character with a strength of 4.

Seems simple enough, don't it?!

You are describing exactly what happens during the game. What you gain or lose in terms of counters is kept when passing from one form to the other.

The only reason why we seem not to understand each other is perhaps the fact that I'm talking about Strength/Craft/fate/life values (i.e. the numbers printed on the character card, as defined in the rules), while you are talking about Strength/Craft/life/fate.

At any time, your total Strength = Strength value + Strength counters + Strength derived from cards in your possession. If you change Strength value in the formula, the total Strength changes. This is what happens when being transformed into another character, and back. Of course Strength gained from trophies or other sources remains, because it comes in form of Strength counters. With Craft is the same

It is different with life. Your life is the number of cones you have.Your life value is the number printed on the character card and defines your maximum life for the purpose of healing life. Changing life value doesn't result in changing your current life. Still, you can heal or gain life while transformed and you're absolutely keeping your current life when you revert back. Same course with fate.

However, it seems you already know all of this.

To throw more fuel on the fire, say you were initially the knight, transformed to whoever, then back to the knight, do you get another sword and shield upon reversion since you are technically beginning that characters life once again?

Just kidding BTW, but it shows how ridiculous this game can get if you follow the wrote word with no common sense.

Just kidding BTW, but it shows how ridiculous this game can get if you follow the wrote word with no common sense.

but the whole purpose of the transform is the potential loss (or gain) you might encounter from being the new character; good so ditch the Rune Sword or Evil so no trips to the Chapel, etc. And with that, any loss or gain of strength or craft or lives or fates. So the best method to use, following the standard theme, is to gain the physical form and objects, keep any loss or gain to values resulting from being said character, then removing the temporary objects when reverting back, maintaining the previous rankings, plus or minus any gained value markers less any additional remaining from the temporary character.

So if I was a strength 3 previously, changed to a strength 5, but kill an enemy and turn in the trophy for an additional value, I would then be back to the old character with a strength of 4.

Seems simple enough, don't it?!

You are describing exactly what happens during the game. What you gain or lose in terms of counters is kept when passing from one form to the other.

The only reason why we seem not to understand each other is perhaps the fact that I'm talking about Strength/Craft/fate/life values (i.e. the numbers printed on the character card, as defined in the rules), while you are talking about Strength/Craft/life/fate.

At any time, your total Strength = Strength value + Strength counters + Strength derived from cards in your possession. If you change Strength value in the formula, the total Strength changes. This is what happens when being transformed into another character, and back. Of course Strength gained from trophies or other sources remains, because it comes in form of Strength counters. With Craft is the same

It is different with life. Your life is the number of cones you have.Your life value is the number printed on the character card and defines your maximum life for the purpose of healing life. Changing life value doesn't result in changing your current life. Still, you can heal or gain life while transformed and you're absolutely keeping your current life when you revert back. Same course with fate.

However, it seems you already know all of this.

and then, after ALL this... three turns later I drew mmmmutherfreaking Puck in the woodlands.

yep "you begin the game" that means you get a free sword and shield..

Yep Hunchback can be used outside of Dungeon "That's the fun of Talisman"

yep "you begin the game" that means you get a free sword and shield..

Yep Hunchback can be used outside of Dungeon "That's the fun of Talisman"

So would you also say that if you are the knight and change form that you get a new sword and shield when you become the knight again?

I would say no because Knight already began the game (at the beginning of the game).

But one could argue he is beginning anew since he really wasnt in the game while transformed, its the same logic exactly.

What if you're the knight and become the priest?

...and now we get back to discard/ditching. Are your weapons just dropped? In most instances you should be able to go back to them.

...and now we get back to discard/ditching. Are your weapons just dropped? In most instances you should be able to go back to them.

I think the whole point is to mess with your items and follower due to a change of alignment or abilities.

As for transforming back to the knight there's no new start and hence no new items.

We never had any difficulties or disagreements about this card but it's one of the longest turns of the game if this card is drawn to set up and making sure nothing is missed.

...and now we get back to discard/ditching. Are your weapons just dropped? In most instances you should be able to go back to them.

You can have as many Weapons as you want as the Priest, the only drawback is you can't use them in battle.

As for alignment related cards, if you are transformed into a character that cannot have certain cards, they must be ditched on your space.

If someone tried to keep the hunchback outside of the dungeon, whether or not the specific wording supports it, I'd throw em out for being a jackass. There has to be some level of intelligent behavior for players if you want to keep the game fun, the hunchback knows his way around the dungeon and can't bear to be in the sunlight, so trying to keep him and use him in any other region is a mockery to common sense.

I might buy this reasoning IF the Dark Denizens card didn't exist.

When the designers put the game together, they knew that both the Hunchback and Dark Denizens existed in the game. They knew that the Hunchback could possibly be drawn outside of the Dungeon.

AND YET they still worded it the way that they did: that the Hunchback had to be discarded if you left the Dungeon.

Think of it this way (since you tried putting in some Hunchback backstory in a previous post): At some point in time you are wandering through the Highlands and you come across this lost and confused Hunchback. You take him as a follower. But later on you travel to the Dungeon. While in the Dungeon this Hunchback realizes that he has found his true home, and he refuses to leave the Dungeon, even if you do. You have returned him to his home.

So there is no problem with keeping the Hunchback outside of the Dungeon IF that's where you found him. But if you return him to his home, he's not going to go with you. Therefore, you must discard him.

Excellent post, you are correct.

I would say no because Knight already began the game (at the beginning of the game).

No, your Beginning the Game as the Knight its just in the middle of a game. Plus the Transformed card says "using all printed values, special abilities, etc" can't really argue that.

I would say no because Knight already began the game (at the beginning of the game).

No, your Beginning the Game as the Knight its just in the middle of a game. Plus the Transformed card says "using all printed values, special abilities, etc" can't really argue that.

You can play that way if you want to, I will interpret it the other way in my games.

But you can't toss some rules and not others. Unless you're just going to accept ANYTHING is open to interpretation or personal preference. You can't be a stickler for one situation and a slider in the next.

If the card says that, then that's the rule.

The card says the beginning of the game. Im not "tossing out some rules", I'm saying characters begin the game only once. You are saying otherwise, which is counterintuitive.

It's strange how different cards and issues cause problem for different groups and how they might not be a problem until discussed here.

We've never had a problem with this card (except that we take cones for our starting values of strength and craft as well. For simplicity... but it's a pain when drawing transformed ).

Anyhow, we play it as it's the beginning of the game for the new character. And when you revert to your old it's not as you just continue with it.

If your lucky enough to draw a character that gives you a start of the game bonus that really matters then good for you. As for a the knight you often have better cards at that time and if you're evil you probably lose more than you gain. An evil character transforming into the dread knight thus gaining a war horse are one of few really good bonuses gained this way I think.

I would say no because Knight already began the game (at the beginning of the game).

No, your Beginning the Game as the Knight its just in the middle of a game. Plus the Transformed card says "using all printed values, special abilities, etc" can't really argue that.

You can play that way if you want to, I will interpret it the other way in my games.

Of course but then its a house rule and everyone can make them up if they want.

I would say no because Knight already began the game (at the beginning of the game).

No, your Beginning the Game as the Knight its just in the middle of a game. Plus the Transformed card says "using all printed values, special abilities, etc" can't really argue that.

You can play that way if you want to, I will interpret it the other way in my games.

Of course but then its a house rule and everyone can make them up if they want.