I understand. I'm not sure he would qualify as a fletcher an bowyer, but if so, obviously short bows and arrows - problem is that out in the forest he would not have metal for arrowheads (nor could he forge them), but he could refine hemp cord and have bees wax for bow string. He could make a staff, a cudgel / shelalay, and a raft as well. I see the cudgel as a cheap standard +1 weapon for 1 gold that would break on a rolled 1, win or lose. A staff would be two handed, but have a chance like a shield to save a life... and it would break as well perhaps, though not like a cudgel. The raft would need a price. There's lots for him to do, should you decide to introduce him again.

Jon, something else occurred to me, as the Woodsman popped into my head now and then. If formatted as one of these new space expanders, without a standard deck type or an order number, how would he be dealt with on a space where cards are drawn? Is he counted, and therefor no other cards are drawn? And since he's permanent, unless removed by an adventurer somehow, on a 1 draw space, if he's counted, he would eliminate draws on that space for the rest of the game?

Just curious, for wherever you drop back around. Overall, I'm thinking the space expanders we've been toying with should probably not pop up on any draw space. Best to stick to standard Strangers and Places for that.

I was thinking that the space would then become a "Visit this guy or draw a card" space. The mechanic has been used before and it frees up more spaces for permanents other than the "usual suspects".

Ah ha... and I finally realized the obvious.

I wouldn't worry, as it is an unusual occurence and having a card on a space is contrary to one of the rules in the book (regarding Hex), which is why a special rule would be needed for Locations and Personalities.

Your reply was quicker than my edit... so.

I guess the only other considerations are (1) other potential space cards to consider, now that we've worked over the mechanical aspects, and (2) how far to take it, and (3) the limit of how many cards per such space, liking 1. And if there are any interesting notions for other spaces not touched upon. We have the City, Village, Chapel, Tavern, Graveyard, and Castle as non-draw spaces with options either forced or chosen. Crags, Chasm, and Forest are possibles though not extremely likely, unless a condition is set that one must face the roll and come out safe before encounter a space card there.

I came up with mostly "encounter" based options myself, other than the Gambler. I had thought of a Master at Arms (somewhat like the Trainer) for the Castle, where Strength could be bought for gold and missed turns. Another option somewhere else could be set for training Craft, maybe the Warlock's Cave... or not. Don't have any clear notions for the Graveyard, and of course it has an alignment based limitation like the Chapel.

I'd go for a limit of one card per Space with these. I think there are Spaces that could do with a little something, especially the Black Knight... lots of potential there.

Agreed. And I've always thought the Black Knight could be more interesting. Here's a notion, though it may not be a great one. Any one who wants to can critique or offer other suggestions.

And another notion... one for the often cited sea-travel possibilities of Talisman. This one is kept simple for use without a "sea" region added.

I am still wondering about these newly classified cards.

On one hand, an expander could be pre-placed, and of course no more than one might be best per non-draw space. This is preferable for stable options throughout the game... and requires the cards not be part of any standard Adventure card classification, so they are not affected by Events, Spells, etc.

On the other hand, if dealt with as Strangers and Places, they are left subject to other game effects and may come and go. The advantage is multiple cards for any one space could be included. They might come and go at different times for more variety, rotating in and out of play as they interact with the game like other cards.

These reclassified orderless cards allow them to be drawn from the deck and placed at random times and in random games. But in drawing them, they are not fully permanent (always there) as in option one. At the same time, they not fully random, as they remain and cannot be affected by game mechanics like other cards. And this means that any group needs to be aware not to include more than one per space affected in the Adventure deck... if they want to avoid glut on any one space. I

I suppose overall it is still not a big deal, since games are played so fast these days that going through the whole deck doesn't happen often. Still, I find myself still waffling back and forth between the new classifications or using Places and Strangers. The new types certainly work best for placing them before a game starts. The old types work best for full game mechanics interaction. Drawing card types that aren't part of the games other mechanics seems to cause fuss over setting them up in a deck and still having variety of draws without special preparation of the deck... should more than one notion for any space be available.

I wouldn't want to have to sort through a deck, deciding if to use the Metallurgist or the Storehouse in a particular game and still not worry about too much being on the Village for too long.

Is there another option for card expanders coming and going that anyone can think of... perhaps an alternative rule that governs these cards if we are to use new type classifications?

Indeed, this is easily done as you might navigate around Storm River.

Yes, I've thought about the river, though river travel would be shorter and slower compared to the open sea. That mechanic is already in my card called The Landing. It is less expensive, but as a smaller vessel, you can only reach the two corner spaces to either side of where it pops up, and you aren't going to haul along a mule train, warhorses, or a horse and cart. And certainly that rural boatman isn't going to allow Enemy-Monsters and Dragons on his boat as Followers... not for any price.

Aside from the terror of it, or even the impossibly bulk... the vessel would sink... or wherever it tried land the denizens would sink it before it docked. I would.... those stupid, selfish, oblivious adventurers!

And the peasants begin revolting!

Never saw the sense, even in the fantastical, in using the river as way to go anywhere in one turn. It just seems so contradictory to something called the "Storm" River.

A barge could do it, and I am sure given the shiny nature of gold, someone might be willing to overlook the freshly dispatched dragon hide.

(Just noticed you meant as Followers - still applies though, money talks...)

Also, you might also use a d6 movement as normal, but being able to alight at either side of the river. Cures the distance problem and adds a useful element.

True, and again, anyone can do it if they want. But I have seen and been on a manually operated "barge"... including long, long ones for taking flots of logs downriver. Granted, it was hauled by a diesel engine.

Barges require a calm, wide, deep (yes), slow moving rather than "storm" river. They take a crew of 3, 4, or more to manage. And a boat... or even a raft... could out do one any day. Old style barges are the slowest vessels on any river, being "poled" and not oared; one person can't do that. Sails would do little to move them except at an even slower rate. The Raft has always been kind of amusing, since that sale would probably be worthless on river. Still, I included such in my version of the raft for continuity.

I'm probably alone in all this thought of verisimilitude. But I still like the concept of distance inherent in Talisman's mostly random movement. Each one of those spaces represents the possibility of area "types" encountered in wandering rather than being the actual lay of the land. Any form of exceptional movement should probably take that into account. In general, I don't see river travel doing to much to exceed foot travel... and yet somehow not allowing one to go acrss the river except in special places. It's just too little sense to me. But boarding a ship in an actual port is a little bit better for taking a one turn trip to "settled" destinations.

Just wanted to bust in a little and write about the thing discussed before.

The Persona and Location categories - I actually don't like them. I mean the arguments have been layed out before that these cards will be uneffected by many present cards and mechanics.

I would prefer something simple, that also combines the new cards. I'd go with:

"Option - Place" and "Option - Stranger "

This way there would be possibility to influence all the existing options in the game.

The wording may not be good, but English is not really my language, so maybe someone else could come up with better words.

Anyway that's my opinion on this, cards themselves look great and I hope to see more.

Hi A. Yes, something isn't quite right with them . . . for me that is. I too like the idea of mechanics interaction, then agian, some players may want to simply add them to the spaces before hand.

Originally, we were in part trying to find ways to augment board spaces without actually altering the board. Some have gone that route, making graphics or just text that gets printed out and applied directly to the board, permanently. Or they create full space pieces to lay on top of the board. Some of those changes are really great, like Jon adding the Horse Trader to the City, or Dth (Dorian) giving the Tavern some fun options. But not everyone wants to alter their board.

Some of use also wanted to have "space" options that could be different from time to time... variety being the spice of life - and gaming. Hence the card option so everyone who uses them has the versatiltiy to do as like. I stumbled into that one with four cards within In the Balance. Jon separately also went down that road, as in adding the Horse Trader to the City, there wasn't enough room on the space to keep the Alchemist. So he created a card for it, which eventually became the Metalurgist instead.

You may be on to something in your labelling suggestion, or at least it appeals to me in an altered fashion. The midbar listing of a Type and Subtype is helpful for players to immediately see they are dealing with an unusual new type of card. You'll notice the Order Number has also been removed; this was Jon's notion, and it reinforces that these cards are not part of an encounter sequence when drawn. Hence it doesn't matter within a turn as to when they are dealt with.

In keeping that change as need, perhaps a Type according to target space combined with a Stranger or Place Subtype... or visa versa. This would allow keeping some of the original intent there and return to pulling in card interaction with game mechanics. Again, with instructions packaged with the card, players could still have to option to place these cards at the games start and keep them there. But with these classifications, they could be mixed into the Deck and played like other Adventure cards as well.

I'll have to think about it some more, but as example, "The Port" would then become something like "City - Place" or "Place - City."

And your English is just fine!

As for the "City - Place" or "Place City", I look at it from a bit different point of view. Since the first sentence say that it's part of the City, then there's no big reason to put it here.

I proposed an "Option" word to be used, to be able to easily influence all of these cards. Other way you would have to name them all, meaning as cards expanding the options in City, Tavern, Village and so on. But maybe such cards won't appear, and this way writing specific location is a great idea.

JCHendee wrote:

You'll notice the Order Number has also been removed; this was Jon's notion, and it reinforces that these cards are not part of an encounter sequence when drawn. Hence it doesn't matter within a turn as to when they are dealt with.

Well, I come from Poland, where we still play the correspondant of your 2nd edition - Magia i Miecz (the one with the Cave expansion). Some of us are just still into the old one, although the new edition is also present. So I do not quite know all the rules changes in the 4.5 Edition (please correct me if I'm wrong).

On our forum the subjest of encounter sequence has come up once. And I would disagree that something in this game is not part of an encounter sequence. This is (or at least was) a flaw in the rules, since the Space instruction has been always "encountered" with number 0. This makes sense - if you get to Hidden Valley and there is one card there, then you only draw two more, meaning that space instruction comes first.

But there was also an example in the rules saying that if you land on the Desert space and find a Water Bottle, then you take it, and thus do not lose a life.

The only reasonable solution is that "specific spaces" have an "encounter number" of last (like 6).

But everything has an encounter number. If you meet an Enemy in the Village and lose the fight, then your turn ends, meaning that the encounter process is stopped. If we exclude anything from it, then it will be possible to "encounter it" no matter what.

After finishing my writing for the day, I was toying with this topic in my head. It seems that MAYBE we're slamming together two notions that should be separate. So I started to think about how these cards might actually be offered in two separate forms. And perhaps not all notions would be good for both. Below is an example of a new card template I threw together for space expanders that are placed on the board before game begins .

NOTE: this is my original creation. It uses no graphics scanned from the game, though obviously intended to blend with Talisman 's motif. At this point, and until I'm satisfied, it is not for distribution and general use. That will be discussed later once I see if it is of use.

It was hastily slapped together from elements I've been developing to produce an economy size board purely for my wife and I use. We really are tired of climbing around that huge board when it is just the two of us. The scroll can be adjusted in height to fit the limits of text and/or graphics. Placement card elements, labeling and description, are not final but merely an example of what is possible. A card back would be designed as well, should this be a possible alternative for permanently placed space expander cards.

You can Right-Click and Save or View to see it at full 300ppi printable scale... and thereby notice a lot of the flaws that must be worked out.

I'm back, A., as you can see. And you made good point about encounter ordering. There are cards in the game, Enemies such as the Ghost, which get place on a non-draw space. Those cards must be encountered before the space options. Failure to overcome them could mean no access to the space options, though I'm not sure what the current rules are on this. Hence, a space expander is part of the space if it isn't designated as a Stranger, Place, etc.

But therein is the catch. A space-expander becomes part of the space. OTHER THAN instructions to draw a card, any space's instructions (I believe) where forced or optional choices are to be made, always come last. That's why the Order Number isn't needed for a card that becomes an option on the space where cards are not drawn. It becomes part of the space when place and is no longer considered a card. When it is drawn, it is placed elsewhere, on space where cards are not drawn. It order is irrelevant, because it isn't encountered at all where it is drawn. And it is placed elsewhere no matter what happens on the draw space or how far an adventurer gets through mulitple cards there.

But these types of issues are also why I now think it is impossible to logically make a card that is both drawn from the Adventure deck to interact with normal game mechanics AND / OR becomes a permanent part of the space. Whatever the developer chooses, blending permanency with drawing is creating some problems (major or minor, depending on individual perspective). And hence the purposed template above.

I really like the form of this new cards JC.Looks great.

It's nice that the graphic is bigger, and I see that you added some birds, which bring a sense of motion - that's some good stuff.

Hmm.. The cards could be classed as Places and merely placed on the appropriate space.

It might be a nice twist if the person discovering it got to benefit too though.

Perhaps something along the lines of "You meet a Metallurgist on his way to the Village, you may encounter him and then place this card on the Village space..." ?

Now that's a notion, Jon! My concern would be getting the extra text on the card; some have so much on them for their "space" option that it could get crowded. I would say that immediate encounter plus space expander should be reserved for "Stranger/Persona" like cards; it wouldn't work very rationally for "Place/Location" stuff, like the Port.

Jon... care to mock up your Metalurgist with this possible new option?

Actually, I quite like these...

I am just thinking, any time one of these was "displaced" and moved away from the space in question, the next person to encounter it would move it back to the space!

Okay, but what game effects could displace them?

The Displacement spell.