The Warp

By Cardinalsin2, in Dark Heresy Gamemasters

So, I'm thinking of running a session that takes place in the Warp, with my acolytes discovering a space hulk actually drifting in the warp, and boarding it.

I'm basically making my own decisions about the appearance and the physics of the Warp, but I'm interested to know (a) how others run the Warp, and (b) if there is an official "how the Warp works" anywhere.

Here's how my Warp works:

- It is a parallel space to the physical world, separated from realspace by a barrier that prevents anything crossing over

- Warp ships have a special Warp drive which enables them to jump through this barrier from a point in realspace to the same point in Warpspace

- I haven't decided on how the tech will work exactly, but I'm leaning towards saying that the ship has a sort of cage built into its superstructure which generates the field required to make the ship jump into Warpspace.

- Once in Warpspace, non-navigators perceive nothing but eerie, blank, featureless grey space outside the ship. Navigators can perceive the full glory of the Warp, a realm of daemons and fantastic vistas of dream-like landscape.

- Physically, Warpspace functions like a vacuum. That means that in theory you can go outside your ship provided you are wearing a void suit or similar.

- You can in theory encounter other ships in the Warp, and interact with them in exactly the same way you could if you were in realspace. However, this is rare; at least in realspace you are generally manoeuvering in the comparatively restricted space of a solar system, whereas in the Warp you are a grain of sand floating in the ocean.

- Psykers can use their powers in the Warp. However, this will *always* trigger psychic phenomena. On the plus side, you get to roll twice as many dice on your power roll, which means you will almost never fail. That said, any psychic power which is in some way sense-based (many divination and telepathy powers in particular) become functionally useless as the overwhelming presence of the Warp acts like a jammer.

- Daemons are no more of a threat in the Warp than they are in realspace, except for the effects of the preceding bullet, i.e. psykers become even more of a risk.

What do you guys do? Any comments on the above?

Cardinalsin said:

What do you guys do? Any comments on the above?

Mine's quite different in a number of respects, and it's a theory I've been working on for the best part of a decade now, constantly evolving it.

Fundamentally, the Warp in my interpretation is a formless abyss, essentially empty in and of itself. The warp-stuff that suffuses the infinite Immaterium has no substance, no shape, no solidity, but has the fundamental potential to become anything... it simply needs something to realise that potential.

Within the Warp, even thoughts and dreams and emotions are more solid than the stuff the Warp itself is made of, and thus the Warp latches onto such things, attempts to mimic them. Such things are fleeting, however, and unless reinforced by repeated exposure, the Warp's attempts to mimic these fragile sparks of reality do not come to anything. When reinforced... Daemons and Gods and Warp Storms are all potential consequences.

Matter is more solid still, and similarly the Warp attempts to embrace solid things to give it shape and meaning. However, as the energies of the Warp suffuse matter, the matter itself breaks down, no longer governed by the physical laws that give it definition. Exposure to the raw power of the Warp is corrosive to the nature of reality, and in sufficient quantities, universally lethal.

Psykers and Sorcerers use this malleability to influence reality - by drawing tiny motes of Warp-stuff into reality, they can exert their wills upon it and make it do things for them. The process is tricky, for a single mistake can lead to too much Warp-stuff, or too little control, and in either case this can result in random, bizarre phenomena as the unconstrained Warp-stuff shifts reality without a guiding purpose.

Things of substance within the Warp create echoes, ripples. A single dream can echo across the void, copied a billion times again and again by the Immaterium as it spreads outwards. Particularly significant things create greater ripples, their importance and solidity giving them greater endurance. For the most part, mortal thought is the most common 'thing' to enter the Warp, leaking across the barriers through the souls of living beings. Death in particular is powerful, releasing both the final thoughts of a being, and the energy that comprises their souls. Even so, a single death is but a pebble in an infinite ocean, and hardly of great significance on the grander scale. A trillion deaths at once, as happened on Isstvan III at the very start of the Horus Heresy, creates an event within the Warp so powerful that it can obscure the Astronomicon.

These ripples do not exist in isolation. Ripples of embodied notion cascade across the Warp at all times, and through all times, for time itself is meaningless within the Warp, and consequently any time can be reached from it. These ripples act almost as tides, creating an unending motion within the Warp. Particularly strong ripples can drive starships off-course, speed them, or slow them, depending on relative direction, and when those ripples collide with others of similar strength, turbulence is created. If these tides of the Warp continue to crash against one another, Warp Storms can form, areas of aethyric turbulence that cannot be easily travelled through and which press heavily against the barrier between reality and the Immaterium.

This barrier is not of constant thickness or strength. In places where transition into or out of the Warp is common, the barrier is thinner, and as the most common transition is that of mortal thought, heavily populated worlds tend to find themselves surrounded by a thinner barrier than might be found around an uninhabited world. Worlds with abundant psyker populations similarly have thinner-than-normal barriers about them, as a Psyker's nature both draws from and leaks into the Immaterium in greater quantities than a normal mortal soul. Finally, places where starships translate into the Warp frequently are weakened by this translation, creating points where translation is naturally easier. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the tides and flows of the Warp and the natural movement of the universe keeps these areas of weakness from wearing down entirely. However, when a Warp Storm presses down upon a region of space, the barrier is strained, and in extreme cases, flaws within the barrier can cause it to break entirely. The most notable instance of this is the formation of the Eye of Terror - a massive Warp Storm crowded around worlds dominated by a species who are naturally powerful psykers, at a time of their greatest complacency and disregard for the consequences, resulting in not only the birth of a Chaos God, but the sundering of reality itself for an area hundreds of light years across. The Eye of Terror is visible for millions of light years in all directions, a malignant red gleam in the heavens to most, but a seething wound that dominates the sky in systems and sectors near to the rift.

Every day, thousands Imperial vessels cross the divide between realspace and the Warp, crossing the aptly named 'Sea of Souls' for a certain time, before crossing the divide once more, and returning to realspace, having cut years from their journey. The means for this will become apparent once basic knowledge of ship design is understood.

A starship is any vessel designed for interstellar travel - without the capacity to voyage between the stars, it is merely a spaceship or spacecraft, or otherwise referred to as void-capable. All starships of human design, then, must include a Warp Drive.

A Warp Drive is a psychically attuned device designed to allow a ship to pass through the barrier. This transition is performed by a psychic servitor, built into the main drive, who, on command, draws the vessel through the barrier, under the protection of specially sanctified Geller Fields, another vital system. The Geller Field's function is twofold. It's first function is to allow a vessel to make the real/warp transition safely, without damaging the barrier too greatly, in a similar way to the fact that an object covered in soap will not pop a soap bubble if the object is moved carefully. As the ship passes through, there is the inevitable leakage – a small amount of Warp-stuff spills into realspace and a small amount of realspace follows the ship as it passes, in a phenomenon known as a 'Probability Wake'. It is highly inadvisable to be caught within such a wake, as the natural laws tend to be momentarily disrupted by the wake. Fortunately, most wakes are only a few hundred kilometres wide, and most warp transitions are performed at the edge of a system, where the wake's effects will be minimal to the system's inhabitants, and where other recent translations will have ensured that the barrier is thin enough to pass through easily.

The second function of the Geller Fields are to hold back the energy of the warp from the ship's hull – the warp itself contains Daemons and other beings who would happily devour the crew of a vessel, leaving nothing but a drifting hulk, and the warp's energy is random and chaotic, twisting and distorting matter upon contact. The bubble of reality captured when the Geller Field activates is maintained for the entire journey, a cocoon of natural law that maintains the ship's ability to function. In some cases, the Geller Field can be extended far enough to overlap with that of other, nearby ships, creating an island of reality that drifts through the Immaterium. Fleets of starships use this method to travel as a group within the Warp, virtually eliminating the risk that part of the group will be separated from the rest. However, the proximity needed for such a close transition is risky in times of war, and fleets of ships emerging from the Warp are often seen as easy targets for pirates and raiders and other hostile elements.

Once within the warp, a vessel, under the guidance of a Navigator, will find its depth. I will note at this point that my references to 'depth' and other physical dimensions within the warp are purely explanatory – no such distinctions truly exist within the warp. The 'depth' is merely a convenient term, used to define the distance between the barrier and the vessel. A vessel that is too shallow (too close to the barrier) will find its movement impeded as it drags along the barrier, and will be pushed deeper. A vessel that is too deep will find that physical laws become too unreliable to rely upon, and the ship risks being lost. This is because closer to the barrier, the physical laws of realspace impede enough upon the warp to make it traversable, allowing navigators to think in loose terms of time and space and physics. This, while it increases the potential time of the voyage, allows for a measure of reliability, whereas a voyage 'deeper' within the warp would be potentially shorter, there are fewer reliable factors for the Navigator to guide the ship by, making the voyage less certain.

Stable, charted routes make it easier - the process of travelling through the Warp further exposes the Warp to concepts like time and distance, and while those things are fleeting within the Immaterium, regular reinforcement by ships travelling along the same route means that such pathways are preferred for most travel, being far safer (if somewhat slower, due to the influence of reality) than uncharted routes. Particularly on vessels not being directed by a Navigator, the reliability of these routes is valuable, as a ship's cogitators can more effectively chart a course through the Warp through such places, at least over short distances (4-5 light years, typically - even over stable routes, longer journeys can involve factors that a ship's cogitators cannot account for). The use of a Navigator is essential for long-distance travel, their ability to see the Warp safely allowing them to compensate for changes within it, adjusting the ship's heading and bearing to account for shifting tides, whether to avoid disruptive ones or take advantage of beneficial ones.

This is a factor made worse by the varying thickness of the barrier. Commonly travelled areas, and densely populated systems have thin barriers, and allow vessels to make the transition more quickly, and means that they don't have to go as deep for optimal speed. At the other end of the scale, in places where the barrier is thickest, transition is longer, and vessels are forced to go deeper, increasing the risks. This is the primary reason why most travel is based around inhabited worlds, with stable routes mapped out regularly by starships of all kinds, to provide information on current conditions.
However, if these were the only factors, Warp Travel would be far safer and more common than it currently is. The matter of Warp Storms, and the tides and flows of the Warp, described above, make the matter far less simple in practice.

The Warp should not be seen by humans. While theoretically an infinite space lacking in content (which would be disturbing - the human mind is seldom prepared to confront absolute and unending darkness - but far from mind-shattering), the shifting tides and waves of the Immaterium, and the creatures that make it their home (only some of which are born from the Warp) can produce sights and inspire thoughts that have been known to cause insanity. Being essentially formless, the shifting nature of the Warp appears as it is percieved, with every individual seeing something different.

Aboard a starship within the Warp, a Psyker is essentially, safe, but their powers should not be used. The bubble of reality contained within the Geller Field is fragile, easily split, and drawing upon the Warp as psykers do could cause it to fluctuate or fail. (In game terms, it's equivalent to the Weaken Veil minor psychic power, but covering the entire ship and several hundred kilometres in every direction around it). Daemons within the Warp are in their natural habitat, and not subject to the same instability that hinders them in realspace. Worse, their very nature is strengthened by the close proximity of the Warp, as they can feed directly on the stuff that gives them a semblance of life and substance.

I think that covers all the major bases. The full theory is far bigger and has never been written down in its entirety, but I'm confident that it covers a broad range of possibilities.

The Warp is officialy described.

It is like a sea of energy, the realm of thought and emotion. It has tides, currents, storms and whirlpools. It is the home of daemons, the powers of Chaos and where psykers draw there power from.

Navigators are the only people who can look at the warp fully and not go mad, due to their third eye. Ships in warp space are protected by a field, the Gellar Field. This stops the warp ripping them apart, changing and warping them; and daemons devouring the souls of those on board. The Field means the ship has a 'bubble' of reality about it to protect it. If this field fluctuates, it means major danger to the ship. If it fails, by all accounts you are doomed.

(There is one tale of a ship surviving a field collapse by the massed prayer of the people on board, and this causing a miracle.)

Little Dave said:

The Warp is officialy described.

It is like a sea of energy, the realm of thought and emotion. It has tides, currents, storms and whirlpools. It is the home of daemons, the powers of Chaos and where psykers draw there power from.

Navigators are the only people who can look at the warp fully and not go mad, due to their third eye. Ships in warp space are protected by a field, the Gellar Field. This stops the warp ripping them apart, changing and warping them; and daemons devouring the souls of those on board. The Field means the ship has a 'bubble' of reality about it to protect it. If this field fluctuates, it means major danger to the ship. If it fails, by all accounts you are doomed.

(There is one tale of a ship surviving a field collapse by the massed prayer of the people on board, and this causing a miracle.)

The Warp may be officially described (indeed, I know for a fact that it is, as my above-posted theory is written to account for as much of the official material as possible), but that doesn't mean that it's completely described in a manner that leaves no room for personal interpretation - quite the opposite, in fact, as your terse and otherwise unhelpful post demonstrates.

- Physically, Warpspace functions like a vacuum. That means that in theory you can go outside your ship provided you are wearing a void suit or similar.

Within the boundaries of the Geller field, that is correct. Outside, as has been noted by N0-1, it is a place anathema to any mundane existence, meaning that even if you're not instantly devoured by a daemon, your material form ceases to exist because the Warp is not a "place" of physical things, but of emotions and thoughts.

That rather long and well written post sounds like the worst kind of dangerous and heretical "empirical" science! Well done! gui%C3%B1o.gif

Do you suppose that level of information about the warp is well known (though not widely known) to Imperial science? Is it the kind of thing restricted to only the highest ranking and most well informed Tech Priests, High Lords, Inquisitors. Or further still the kind of information only gathered and discussed in secret by radical Tech Priest cabals and Hereteks of the empirical kind?

Regarding travel in the warp, I would like to add that while in warp transit, even within the safety of the Gellar field, the psychic and emotional eddies and currents of the warp can still affect any and all passengers on a vessel. Especially the gibbering of warp creatures I'd imagine. Such experiences would be felt through any and all of the senses too, while heightening or drawing on all kinds of emotions and anxieties.

In game terms, that could create interesting problems for characters while in warp transit. Unreliable awareness test results, for example, as a result of not knowing whether you are hearing scratching behind the walls for true, or if it's just in your head. Managing disorders could become a major concern for those Characters with a few too many Insanity points. As such, overcautious ship crews on the lookout for signs of warp madness could present complications to an ongoing plot.

Willpower tests abound, to keep ones head, stay sane or, even as a substitute for tests normally dealt with in other ways when in real space. Like willpower substituting for perception in the example above to determine whats real from whats imagined warp travel symptoms, (only once players realise how being in warp transit is affecting them.)

I like the idea of psychic powers becoming extremely dangerous to use while getting more powerful too. Though I don't think it should necessarily make powers much easier to use or vastly more powerful either. Perhaps a little easier but not very much. Rather, I think adding a over bleed effects regardless of how much is scored might better represent the phenomenon. And, as someone mentioned, with increased chance or forced rolls of psychic phenomenon.

Though if psychic powers in warp transit were all the more glorious and dangerous, it seems like every heretic with a pet psyker would just hop a space bus through the warp as a quick route to power. Or use it to sabotage imperial ships willynilly. Though that could make for an interesting plot by itself.

I'll say again though. Well done on a great warp theorem. Excellent information well presented. FFG should ****** it up and print it in its entirety for the next Rogue Trader supplement! demonio.gif Good work No 1 Here!

Hapshant's Heir said:

That rather long and well written post sounds like the worst kind of dangerous and heretical "empirical" science! Well done! gui%C3%B1o.gif

Do you suppose that level of information about the warp is well known (though not widely known) to Imperial science? Is it the kind of thing restricted to only the highest ranking and most well informed Tech Priests, High Lords, Inquisitors. Or further still the kind of information only gathered and discussed in secret by radical Tech Priest cabals and Hereteks of the empirical kind?

Given the nature of the information I've presented (and the second time I compiled it into writing, it was done in an in-character manner), it's still vague enough to be essentially useless for practical purposes - all the variables I note are so complex and difficult to predict that they can't necessarily be proven to work in the manner I describe. Consequently, it works as an in-character theory as much as it does an out-of-character one. How well-accepted it'll be depends on who you're talking to, in both cases.

Hapshant's Heir said:

Though if psychic powers in warp transit were all the more glorious and dangerous, it seems like every heretic with a pet psyker would just hop a space bus through the warp as a quick route to power. Or use it to sabotage imperial ships willynilly. Though that could make for an interesting plot by itself.

Getting aboard a starship is still difficult, and often the need to and benefits of travel to other worlds far outweighs the gains of hindering the ability of the Imperium to function in some small way. The Imperial Navy (as per the novel Relentless ) are noted for using Sanctioned Psykers as a means of determining the spiritual purity of newcomers and keeping an eye on the ship while in the Warp - not necessarily using powers, but simply observing things that a normal person is incapable of seeing and interpreting them with knowledge a normal person does not have. I imagine that a number of Sanctioned Psykers are placed at starports across the Imperium for a similar reason, if only to try and keep psykers from escaping the Blackships. It's not perfect, but it certainly requires a considerable degree of luck, skill and connections to be able to smuggle an unsanctioned psyker aboard an unsuspecting ship - indeed, the plot for the novels Scourge the Heretic and Innocence Proves Nothing (the first two novels in a series intended to tie-in to Dark Heresy, and thus set in the Calixis Sector) focusses around a criminal organisation smuggling unsanctioned psykers off of Sepheris Secundus.

Plus, as 'quick routes to power' go, tapping into the Immaterium while in the Warp is dangerous - yes, it's easier to draw upon the energies you need to manifest your powers... but the cost may not be worth the relatively small benefit.

My reply was attempted to be a stopgap measure, but I found the edit button has dissappeared. Not that I need worry now, the long and well described post will put any effort of mine to shame.

@N0-1_H3r3:

Thanks, that was interesting.

I used to have a fairly detailed metaphysical theory to go with WH40K (which may well have contradicted the fluff - I am not overly wedded to it), which said that the Warp was dominated by psychic constructs of various kinds. Four such constructs were the chaos gods, another was the web of the collective human psyche, sort of orbiting the mind of the Emperor. So whereas your theory said that travel is easier between inhabited systems because of the frequency of travel, mine said that Warp travel (and especially Warp navigation) is essentially done through these psychic constructs. Finding a heavily-populated planet is therefore like flying towards a gigantic glowing beacon of mind-stuff, whereas flying towards an uninhabited area of space is like flying into a region of deep shadow. All this is only possible in a remotely safe or speedy way because of the power of the Emperor's mind linking the network of human minds together, and without the Emperor the whole thing would become maze-like and very difficult (and slow) to navigate.

Anyway, I try to avoid such detailed metaphysical speculation these days because instead of writing actual campaign material for sessions, I just wrote endless background and metaphysic documents... which was fun but meant I never ran any games. So my campaign isn't anything like as coherent as your article. happy.gif

A couple of things in your article particularly interested me though:

- The Gellar field; I recall this is a thing from the fluff though AFAIR it was never described in any real detail. Your description appears to suggest that once you've entered the Warp with a Gellar field on, it persists without anything to maintain it. So if, for example, all the people on a starship died while it was in the Warp, and it drifted along under its own power before finally running out of power and becoming a hulk, the Gellar field would remain in place. Correct?

- The psychic servitor that powers the ship; is that something you have made up, or is it present anywhere in the fluff? As I say, I don't bother too much with sticking religiously to the fluff, but I'm always interested to know what it says, and I've never heard this one before.

Also, out of curiosity, would you say your theory is compatible with the idea of encountering a hulk while inside the Warp, and physically boarding it? Or would the two Gellar fields interact in some kind of catastophic way that would, as it were, burst the soap bubble?

Cardinalsin said:

What do you guys do? Any comments on the above?

I have a few if you're interested.

Cardinalsin said:

- Physically, Warpspace functions like a vacuum. That means that in theory you can go outside your ship provided you are wearing a void suit or similar.

I don't think this makes Warpspace seem intimidating enough. Considering that it is described as a realm of pure and chaotic energy that doesn't adhere to the standard four dimensions of realspace (width, height, depth and time), being able to hop outside of the vessel in a void suit doesn't really convey that chaotic feeling very well. The only thing protecting you and your vessel from being ripped apart by chaotic energy and turbulent time displacement is your geller field. A small, projected bubble of reality that enables the ship to pass safe through this realm.

Of course strapping on a void suit and taking a walk on the outside of the hull might be feasible (since one could assume that the geller field extends a hundred meters or so outward from the vessel), but drifting off to the outside of this reality bubble will pretty much evaporate an unprotected human being. Because suddenly you will be completely visible to the denizens of the warp and they will all try to possess you at the same time, and you'll also have to deal with all the chaotic flows of time displacements ripping through your body. If warp currents are powerful enough to seamlessly fuse entire starships and asteroids together, just imagine what they would do to a tiny human being in a void suit!

Cardinalsin said:

- You can in theory encounter other ships in the Warp, and interact with them in exactly the same way you could if you were in realspace. However, this is rare; at least in realspace you are generally manoeuvering in the comparatively restricted space of a solar system, whereas in the Warp you are a grain of sand floating in the ocean.

Anything can be done in theory, but once again I think this reasoning doesn't make warpspace seem intimidating enough. The warp might be a parallel universe to realspace, but the thing is that this parallel universe doesn't adhere to the same dimensional laws as realspace does. It doesn't have depth, width, height and time. So a more apt comparison (in my opinon of course) would be a grain of sand floating in an ocean in a constantly shifting time period (one second that grain of sand is in the future, the next it is in the past etc.)

Which means that it's not really enough to just be in the same general "location" (if such terms were really applicable in a realm such as the warp) as another vessel, you'll have to be in the exact same time period as well.

The warp f**k's with the sense of time quite often, and it has even been known for vessels going through a botched warp transition or having a geller field collapse and their navigator killed to be flung way, way into the future (or a possible future) or even into the past, and sometime they don't even come out anywhere, anytime.

Cardinalsin said:

- Daemons are no more of a threat in the Warp than they are in realspace, except for the effects of the preceding bullet, i.e. psykers become even more of a risk.

This is somethig I disagree with as well. Daemons are very much more of a threat in the Warp because they would no longer suffer the effects of warp instability. You can't have a daemon "banished to the warp" when it's already in the warp. Which means that the only way to kill a daemon is to destroy it utterly (sort of in the same way like the Holocaust Psychic power does).

Cardinalsin said:

The Gellar field; I recall this is a thing from the fluff though AFAIR it was never described in any real detail. Your description appears to suggest that once you've entered the Warp with a Gellar field on, it persists without anything to maintain it. So if, for example, all the people on a starship died while it was in the Warp, and it drifted along under its own power before finally running out of power and becoming a hulk, the Gellar field would remain in place. Correct?

Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion from my writings, but that wasn't the intent.

The Geller Field (per the spelling in the Rogue Trader rulebook) requires power to maintain - without it, the reality contained within it gets out, dissipates when exposed to the stuff of the Warp, and then leaves the ship in the unenviable situation of being no longer subject to physical law.

Cardinalsin said:

- The psychic servitor that powers the ship; is that something you have made up, or is it present anywhere in the fluff? As I say, I don't bother too much with sticking religiously to the fluff, but I'm always interested to know what it says, and I've never heard this one before.

Primarily, it's my own creation, but I recall reading of Forge Worlds using psychic servitors within their primary temples as a means of communicating newly discovered technological information to Mars. It also works as an extrapolation of the idea that the Tau can't develop a true Warp Drive because they lack psykers of their own - they have the technology, they just don't have the metaphysical elements.

Cardinalsin said:

Also, out of curiosity, would you say your theory is compatible with the idea of encountering a hulk while inside the Warp, and physically boarding it? Or would the two Gellar fields interact in some kind of catastophic way that would, as it were, burst the soap bubble?

Encountering hulks and even other vessels in the Warp, and them interacting, is possible - the Geller Field/soap bubble analogy only goes so far, when you're dealing with a perpetually-reinforced energy field. So long as the Tech-Priests in charge of the field's function can adjust it properly (working to avoid destabilising the field), you'd be able to get them overlapping to the point where both vessels exist within a single large bubble of reality. This accounts for recorded instances of direct ship-to-ship combat within the Warp during the Gothic War (though it should be noted that Geller Fields are far less necessary for Chaos vessels in many cases - their connection to the Chaos Gods, if sufficiently strong, is all they need to protect them from the entropy that would befall other vessels and guide them in a manner analogous to the use of Navigators by the Imperium).

Little Dave said:

The Warp is officialy described.

It is like a sea of energy, the realm of thought and emotion. It has tides, currents, storms and whirlpools. It is the home of daemons, the powers of Chaos and where psykers draw there power from.

Navigators are the only people who can look at the warp fully and not go mad, due to their third eye. Ships in warp space are protected by a field, the Gellar Field. This stops the warp ripping them apart, changing and warping them; and daemons devouring the souls of those on board. The Field means the ship has a 'bubble' of reality about it to protect it. If this field fluctuates, it means major danger to the ship. If it fails, by all accounts you are doomed.

(There is one tale of a ship surviving a field collapse by the massed prayer of the people on board, and this causing a miracle.)

QFT

The warp is realm where there are no constants only madness and oblivion in equal measure.

The risk of Deamons is high because the warp is there home. Within the warp Daemons fear little save warp creatures of greater power.

I play it that the portholes on a ship clos when the vessel goes into the warp as to look into the warp is to invite madness and possibly even posession.

I also play it that te Gelar field offers a great deal of protection but not 100% guarentee that nothing will get through from the 'outside'.

A ship in the warp can meet other vessels and interact with them but there is no guarentee that proximity in the warp translates as proximity in real space. In otherwords two ships might collide or communicate in the warp but if they both dropped into real space they might be half asector away.

Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion from my writings, but that wasn't the intent.

The Geller Field (per the spelling in the Rogue Trader rulebook) requires power to maintain - without it, the reality contained within it gets out, dissipates when exposed to the stuff of the Warp, and then leaves the ship in the unenviable situation of being no longer subject to physical law.

Which brings up the question how Space Hulks work... they seem to be able to remain in the warp relatively undamaged, popping in and out on a random interval.

That means they need to have a component lacking from ships. Perhaps the core of a hulk might be a DAoT relic, originally intended for salvaging craft stranded in the warp and equipped with suitably powerful geller fields of its own to take over the protection of the amalgated voidships? Using a completely automated vessel for a permanent stay in the warp would make sense. Alternatively, they could go back even farther to the Ancients, which would go a long way to explain the orks' preference for them...

Cifer said:

Which brings up the question how Space Hulks work... they seem to be able to remain in the warp relatively undamaged, popping in and out on a random interval.

That means they need to have a component lacking from ships. Perhaps the core of a hulk might be a DAoT relic, originally intended for salvaging craft stranded in the warp and equipped with suitably powerful geller fields of its own to take over the protection of the amalgated voidships? Using a completely automated vessel for a permanent stay in the warp would make sense. Alternatively, they could go back even farther to the Ancients, which would go a long way to explain the orks' preference for them...

It could also be because of the strange physics involved. I mean, hulks tend to materialize in real space relatively near other star systems. Perhaps the veil between the warp and reality is thinner the close to a star system you get and the space hulk is so massive that it's sheer inertia is enough to pierce the veil without needing to use a warp drive to actually tear a hole into the fabric of reality with the aid of a warp engine? A space hulk is a pretty big, non-orbital body after all.

It could also have some relation to any psychic races living on the planets in a star system. Civil unrest, mass heresy and daominc rituals have been known to weaken the veil several times, if a hulk is drifting near when such things occur it might provide the hulk with a little instantaneous gap in the veil to pass through.

Cifer said:

Not quite sure how you came to that conclusion from my writings, but that wasn't the intent.

The Geller Field (per the spelling in the Rogue Trader rulebook) requires power to maintain - without it, the reality contained within it gets out, dissipates when exposed to the stuff of the Warp, and then leaves the ship in the unenviable situation of being no longer subject to physical law.

Which brings up the question how Space Hulks work... they seem to be able to remain in the warp relatively undamaged, popping in and out on a random interval.

That means they need to have a component lacking from ships. Perhaps the core of a hulk might be a DAoT relic, originally intended for salvaging craft stranded in the warp and equipped with suitably powerful geller fields of its own to take over the protection of the amalgated voidships? Using a completely automated vessel for a permanent stay in the warp would make sense. Alternatively, they could go back even farther to the Ancients, which would go a long way to explain the orks' preference for them...

Cifer said:

Which brings up the question how Space Hulks work... they seem to be able to remain in the warp relatively undamaged, popping in and out on a random interval.

I've been thinking about this, but I reckon that WH40K spacecraft probably have plasma generator(s) on board, which would probably keep going under their own power for quite some time (I'm thinking years). Plus if time is screwy in the Warp it might be that the generators would last longer than you'd expect. So it seems to me you could feasibly have a ship drifting through the Warp with its geller field still going, for a pretty prolonged period, without needing special artifacts or whatnot to explain it.

(Similar considerations apply to gravity and atmosphere on hulks. ISTR that there have been instances in fluff and/or GW board games whereby space marine scouts, who do not have environmental suits or magnetic boots, move around hulks without suffocating, and without floating around. Presumably the Hulk still has the power to keep the air supply and artificial gravity going.)

Cifer said:

Which brings up the question how Space Hulks work... they seem to be able to remain in the warp relatively undamaged, popping in and out on a random interval.

Depends on how you define 'relatively undamaged'. The fact that it's a Space Hulk and not an intact ship suggests more than a little change.

My interpretation and speculation on the matter of Space Hulks tends to dwell on the timeless nature of the Warp - that every point in space and time can be reached, in theory, from the Immaterium (incidentally, it's this notion that allows for the potential of facing the same daemon in several places simultaneously, but that's another matter for another day)

While matter may be subjected to catastrophic entropy within the Warp, there is no specific timescale or rate for this to happen. It might take a second, it might take an aeon, and it might take neither of those things, existing in all states simultaneously (intact, destroyed and everywhere in between). As contradictory as it may seem to us - who exist in a world of natural rules and linear time, all of those things are true and false in equal measure. The Warp seems chaotic because its mechanisms do not function in any way that mortals can truly comprehend, though we may theorise their nature. When a ship is lost in the Warp and re-emerges at a later point, the time it was gone from the perspective of the material universe is irrelevant to the ship itself - it may literally have been gone for mere moments. It may have corroded beyond repair, or been mutated beyond recognition. It might be perfectly intact, unchanged but for the lack of crew - or the crew may even still be there, unchanged but for the hidden taint of the Warp upon their souls. It might be amalgamated with dozens or hundreds of other vessels lost from all over time and space, fused and twisted into their structures in a manner impossible for mortal artifice to replicate.

In theory, given the nature of the Warp, that ship lost to the Warp that has now reappeared may not have even been lost yet. It may not have even been built yet (and at this point, I'm inspired by the idea of seeing a Rogue Trader and his crew encounter the warp-lost carcass of the ship they're currently travelling in, scarred by events that haven't yet come to pass).

Varnias Tybalt said:

It could also be because of the strange physics involved. I mean, hulks tend to materialize in real space relatively near other star systems. Perhaps the veil between the warp and reality is thinner the close to a star system you get and the space hulk is so massive that it's sheer inertia is enough to pierce the veil without needing to use a warp drive to actually tear a hole into the fabric of reality with the aid of a warp engine? A space hulk is a pretty big, non-orbital body after all...

Given the presence of a population within a star system, by my theory, does weaken the barrier somewhat, this pretty much lines up with my ideas for how Space Hulks travel. The tides propelling a Space Hulk through the Warp would be strong indeed, and stand a reasonable chance of simply pushing the mass out of the Warp where the barrier is thin.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Cardinalsin said:

What do you guys do? Any comments on the above?

I have a few if you're interested.

Cardinalsin said:

- Physically, Warpspace functions like a vacuum. That means that in theory you can go outside your ship provided you are wearing a void suit or similar.

I don't think this makes Warpspace seem intimidating enough. Considering that it is described as a realm of pure and chaotic energy that doesn't adhere to the standard four dimensions of realspace (width, height, depth and time), being able to hop outside of the vessel in a void suit doesn't really convey that chaotic feeling very well. The only thing protecting you and your vessel from being ripped apart by chaotic energy and turbulent time displacement is your geller field. A small, projected bubble of reality that enables the ship to pass safe through this realm.

Of course strapping on a void suit and taking a walk on the outside of the hull might be feasible (since one could assume that the geller field extends a hundred meters or so outward from the vessel), but drifting off to the outside of this reality bubble will pretty much evaporate an unprotected human being. Because suddenly you will be completely visible to the denizens of the warp and they will all try to possess you at the same time, and you'll also have to deal with all the chaotic flows of time displacements ripping through your body. If warp currents are powerful enough to seamlessly fuse entire starships and asteroids together, just imagine what they would do to a tiny human being in a void suit!

Cardinalsin said:

- You can in theory encounter other ships in the Warp, and interact with them in exactly the same way you could if you were in realspace. However, this is rare; at least in realspace you are generally manoeuvering in the comparatively restricted space of a solar system, whereas in the Warp you are a grain of sand floating in the ocean.

Anything can be done in theory, but once again I think this reasoning doesn't make warpspace seem intimidating enough. The warp might be a parallel universe to realspace, but the thing is that this parallel universe doesn't adhere to the same dimensional laws as realspace does. It doesn't have depth, width, height and time. So a more apt comparison (in my opinon of course) would be a grain of sand floating in an ocean in a constantly shifting time period (one second that grain of sand is in the future, the next it is in the past etc.)

Which means that it's not really enough to just be in the same general "location" (if such terms were really applicable in a realm such as the warp) as another vessel, you'll have to be in the exact same time period as well.

The warp f**k's with the sense of time quite often, and it has even been known for vessels going through a botched warp transition or having a geller field collapse and their navigator killed to be flung way, way into the future (or a possible future) or even into the past, and sometime they don't even come out anywhere, anytime.

Cardinalsin said:

- Daemons are no more of a threat in the Warp than they are in realspace, except for the effects of the preceding bullet, i.e. psykers become even more of a risk.

This is somethig I disagree with as well. Daemons are very much more of a threat in the Warp because they would no longer suffer the effects of warp instability. You can't have a daemon "banished to the warp" when it's already in the warp. Which means that the only way to kill a daemon is to destroy it utterly (sort of in the same way like the Holocaust Psychic power does).

Varnias Tybalt said:

I don't think this makes Warpspace seem intimidating enough.

(x2)

I think that's fair enough, though I do worry about plausibility - would people regularly risk entering the Warp if it was as intimidating as your description suggests? I mean, sure, it's a realm of chaotic energy, but my reasoning is in part that if you can't see that without being a Navigator, then ignorance is bliss.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Of course strapping on a void suit and taking a walk on the outside of the hull might be feasible (since one could assume that the geller field extends a hundred meters or so outward from the vessel), but drifting off to the outside of this reality bubble will pretty much evaporate an unprotected human being. Because suddenly you will be completely visible to the denizens of the warp and they will all try to possess you at the same time, and you'll also have to deal with all the chaotic flows of time displacements ripping through your body. If warp currents are powerful enough to seamlessly fuse entire starships and asteroids together, just imagine what they would do to a tiny human being in a void suit!

In my (current) conception of things that wouldn't be a problem (I shall explain why below). Though that said, drifting off into space (Warp or no) isn't exactly a good idea at the best of times.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Anything can be done in theory, but once again I think this reasoning doesn't make warpspace seem intimidating enough. The warp might be a parallel universe to realspace, but the thing is that this parallel universe doesn't adhere to the same dimensional laws as realspace does. It doesn't have depth, width, height and time. So a more apt comparison (in my opinon of course) would be a grain of sand floating in an ocean in a constantly shifting time period (one second that grain of sand is in the future, the next it is in the past etc.)

Ahhh, well I agree it's very unlikely. But it is rendered slightly more likely by part of my Warp theory, which is essentially that if you can move from A to B much faster through Warp space than you can through real space, then spatially, Warp space must be smaller. There may well be a flaw in my logic somewhere there, but it seems a good excuse for having in-Warp encounters, and therefore a good thing happy.gif

Varnias Tybalt said:

- Daemons are no more of a threat in the Warp than they are in realspace, except for the effects of the preceding bullet, i.e. psykers become even more of a risk.

This is somethig I disagree with as well. Daemons are very much more of a threat in the Warp because they would no longer suffer the effects of warp instability. You can't have a daemon "banished to the warp" when it's already in the warp. Which means that the only way to kill a daemon is to destroy it utterly (sort of in the same way like the Holocaust Psychic power does).

Good point. I guess what I was trying to say was, daemons aren't physically manifest in the Warp, until such time as a foolish psyker allows them to. At which point, you are correct that they would be more of a threat. (Again, this comes down to theoretical differences.)

Now for that explanation I promised. So, a major part of my Warp theory is that the Warp is essentially a sea of psychic (i.e. mental) energy. It is therefore not made of the same stuff as matter. It does not physically exist at all. Only by manifesting through a psyker/sorcery can anything of the Warp attain physical form. Warp ships are therefore little bubbles of physical matter floating in an ocean of mental stuff.

Now, to my mind, only someone who can sense psychic energy would even be capable of perceiving un-manifested Warp stuff, be it a daemon or some other Warp thing. Therefore, non-psykers simply see nothing of the Warp. Psykers, meanwhile, could theoretically perceive the Warp, except that the level of psychic energy present is so overwhelming as to make psyniscience etc almost useless. It would seem like pure blinding light. This manifests as something a bit like a psychic cold - you know the way you can't smell or taste as well as you can if you are healthy - a psyker feels kind of psychically stuffed up. Meanwhile Navigators are a very special sort of psyker who are capable of overcoming these obstacles to fully perceive the Warp (but for converse reasons they would not have psyniscience or psychic powers of any other kind).

Anyhoo, I am pondering whether to just ditch my theory, which while attractive to me on grounds of philosophy, is less interesting than actually swimming in a sea of daemons.One way or t'other I think I've found a rationale for the scenario I was hoping to run, i.e. encountering a hulk in the Warp. happy.gif

*crosses fingers that the forum formatting on this post will work*

Gahhhhhhhhh.

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enfadado.gif

N0-1_H3r3 said:

While matter may be subjected to catastrophic entropy within the Warp, there is no specific timescale or rate for this to happen. It might take a second, it might take an aeon, and it might take neither of those things, existing in all states simultaneously (intact, destroyed and everywhere in between). As contradictory as it may seem to us - who exist in a world of natural rules and linear time, all of those things are true and false in equal measure. The Warp seems chaotic because its mechanisms do not function in any way that mortals can truly comprehend, though we may theorise their nature. When a ship is lost in the Warp and re-emerges at a later point, the time it was gone from the perspective of the material universe is irrelevant to the ship itself - it may literally have been gone for mere moments. It may have corroded beyond repair, or been mutated beyond recognition. It might be perfectly intact, unchanged but for the lack of crew - or the crew may even still be there, unchanged but for the hidden taint of the Warp upon their souls. It might be amalgamated with dozens or hundreds of other vessels lost from all over time and space, fused and twisted into their structures in a manner impossible for mortal artifice to replicate.

I note in passing that your theory could quite easily allow a hulk (or fully staffed, intact spaceship) to appear out of nowhere; in other words, you could encounter a ship that had never existed outside the Warp.

(Whether this is too crazy to be allowed or too cool not to be, I pass no comment on...)

Cardinalsin said:

I note in passing that your theory could quite easily allow a hulk (or fully staffed, intact spaceship) to appear out of nowhere; in other words, you could encounter a ship that had never existed outside the Warp.

(Whether this is too crazy to be allowed or too cool not to be, I pass no comment on...)

My theory allows for entire universes to emerge from the Warp. Indeed, that's a core element of my theory - that the Warp is the sea within which universes (yes, the plural is intentional) float. The Warhammer 40,000 universe is one example. The Warhammer World is contained within another universe floating somewhere else in the Warp (two universes, one Warp). There could be millions or billions of other universes out there amongst the Immaterium.

In a realm where infinite possibility exists but has nothing to ignite it, there needs to be only a spark to make something new.

Of course, on the local scale, creating something so specific as an entire starship complete with crew from 'nothing' requires an extremely potent directing force to make it happen - from a practical perspective, the odds of something like that happening by chance is so infinitely small as to be essentially impossible (I say essentially because nothing is truly impossible when the Warp is involved), which suggests that you'd need an extremely potent will in order to make it happen.

That, really, is one of the theories about how the vessel known as the Planet Killer came to exist - sightings of it suggest that its structure and capabilities are in defiance of the laws of physics as understood by the Adeptus Mechanicus, which means it was probably constructed at least partially within the Warp.

Cardinalsin said:

I think that's fair enough, though I do worry about plausibility - would people regularly risk entering the Warp if it was as intimidating as your description suggests? I mean, sure, it's a realm of chaotic energy, but my reasoning is in part that if you can't see that without being a Navigator, then ignorance is bliss.

Hehehe, well to answer your first question: remember that some lunatics actually volunteered to strapping themselves into a pragmatically untested rocket, filled to the brim with volatile fuel, and with a guidance computer system waaay less advanced than the first gameboy released by nintendo, with the goal fo being shot from the surface of the earth into space. A place where it is impossible to survive without the aid of a steady oxygen supply and a space suit with adequate radiation protection. gran_risa.gif

I don't know, you might have nerves stronger than mine, but I'd say that such a scenario is PREEETTY risky. And even if my nerves are relatively made of jelly compared to yours I'd still do it, just to be able to know that I've been in outer space before I die.

But that's the thing about people, if there is enough to be gained from trying it out, and you also have the benefit of knowing that many others have done the same thing before you and have survived, if you believe that you have "God" (or a "God Emperor") on your side protecting you, and/or if there is a pressing need to do it, then there is no doubt that people WILL do it, many times over if they have to.

The fact that they don't know of any other way to do it would also be an influencing factor of course.

That being said, they might not let the lowly ship ratings be privy to the exact details of what warp travel entails. It's not good for morale letting the men know that you are about to rip a hole into the fabric of reality and enter a roiling sea of unreal, exotic parallel energy filled with more daemons than the worst shark infested waters, with only a small and strained reality bubble protecting you from it all.

More likely, the men will have a very abstract and gap filled idea of what warp travel really means. The most common thing known of course is that you'll have trouble sleeping because of the increased frequency of nightmares.

Like you say, ignorance is bliss. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Cardinalsin said:

In my (current) conception of things that wouldn't be a problem (I shall explain why below). Though that said, drifting off into space (Warp or no) isn't exactly a good idea at the best of times.

Yeah, that's true. It's just that drifting off into normal space in a void suit still have the moderate chance of you surviving, if you have any means of creating thrust and be able to latch on to your home vessel. Drifting outside of the geller field however would be best not to be contemplated over. Either your head will explode due to massive psychic overload, or you'll simply be "Lost in time and Space" (a really apt description that you can find in Arkham Horror happy.gif )

Cardinalsin said:

Ahhh, well I agree it's very unlikely. But it is rendered slightly more likely by part of my Warp theory, which is essentially that if you can move from A to B much faster through Warp space than you can through real space, then spatially, Warp space must be smaller. There may well be a flaw in my logic somewhere there, but it seems a good excuse for having in-Warp encounters, and therefore a good thing happy.gif

There is the reason for in-warp encounters of course. And to a certain extent it might even be considered "canon" with the setting. I seem to recall a part of the Bloodquest comic from Warhammer Monthly where they encountered a space hulk while in warp transit and even boarded it in-warp. But as with pretty much all GW fluff it can be pretty inconsistent.

But really I guess that it's all pretty much up for interpretation, and while your idea of the warp being smaller than realspace does make sense, that's part of why I have to disagree with it. The thing that I believe makes the warp good and scary is that it doesn't make sense. It seems to be it's own dimension (or set of dimensions) governed by it's own set of unnatiraly physical laws that no one really "knows" anything about. In fact, "knowing" the exact nature of the warp might even be impossible due to it's psychic influence, and the only real way of reaching some sort of comperhension has more to do with "feelings" rather than knowledge. Simply put: you can't claim to "know" the warp, you can at best "feel" the warp.

As for the "size" of things, there is a theory concerning the size of the universe, but it's just a theory at the moment. The "size" could very well just be a calculation of all matter dispersed during the big bang, but it doesn't really explain the exact size of all that "void" that the matter hangs around in. For all we know, that void could very well be infinite (sort of like a 3D animating software, where you can theoretically place an infinite amount of objects in the three dimensional workspace and zoom in and zoom out to an infinite degree, but the only real thing stopping you is the processing power of the computer you're using). In fact, infinity could very well be true for all dimensions as far as we know: I mean could you really think of a good reason why "depth" should ever stop at some point? Or what about "height", "width" or even "time" itself? Even if the entire universe would collapse/implode/explode/whatever, would time simply cease to be? For all we know, it wouldn't. Because we have no real perception of time or how it works, we can only witness it's after effects that things age, and we can come up with theories explaining that time is a relative thing. But we don't know really what it is or how far it can stretch, just as we don't know the beginning or the end of width, height and depth either.

Now if real space have a very good possibility of being infinite, im quite sure that a dimension with such alien concepts of physics could have the same possibility. It would simply represent the same kind of incomperhencisble vastness as our own universe, and make it even more incomerhensible by not adhereing to any physical laws as we know them. But then the natural question would be: "Well, if you say that both real space and warp space are infinite, then why can you travel from point A to point B in real space a lot faster by going through the warp? Shouldn't that imply that warp space is "smaller" than real space?"

And that's where the alien laws of physics in warp space come into place. The warp has often been described as a sea of energy, with it's own currents, tidal waves and storms. I think the idea of warp travel entails that you harness that energy to propel your ship forward at faster than light speed. Normally in real space this would probably destroy your vessel (or even make the universe implode, or make you travel through time, we can't really be sure), but because of the unnatural laws of physics ruling in the warp, you don't have to take such matters into account. It doesn't care about the disintegration of matter travelling at light speed, or even the fact that objects can travel faster than light or the time relativity problems that would arise, because it doesn't follow the same kind of physics or sense of time and space as realspace does. The only real anchor points with the material realm would be the concentracions of psychic energies of psychically sentient species, which can provide the navigator with a sense of "place" in the warp in correlation to the relative location in real space (where the astronomican of course "shines" the brightest).

Cardinalsin said:

Now for that explanation I promised. So, a major part of my Warp theory is that the Warp is essentially a sea of psychic (i.e. mental) energy. It is therefore not made of the same stuff as matter. It does not physically exist at all. Only by manifesting through a psyker/sorcery can anything of the Warp attain physical form. Warp ships are therefore little bubbles of physical matter floating in an ocean of mental stuff.

Now, to my mind, only someone who can sense psychic energy would even be capable of perceiving un-manifested Warp stuff, be it a daemon or some other Warp thing. Therefore, non-psykers simply see nothing of the Warp. Psykers, meanwhile, could theoretically perceive the Warp, except that the level of psychic energy present is so overwhelming as to make psyniscience etc almost useless. It would seem like pure blinding light. This manifests as something a bit like a psychic cold - you know the way you can't smell or taste as well as you can if you are healthy - a psyker feels kind of psychically stuffed up. Meanwhile Navigators are a very special sort of psyker who are capable of overcoming these obstacles to fully perceive the Warp (but for converse reasons they would not have psyniscience or psychic powers of any other kind).

Well, to quote my favourite stand-up comedian of all time, the late Bill Hicks:

-"Yesterday a young man high on acid realised that all matter is just energy condensed to a slow vibration." gran_risa.gif

Besides the fact that Hicks was a genious of comedy, he does have a point there. So even if something isn't of matter, but of energy people would still be able to see it or percieve it to a certain degree.

And the warp has been desrcribed in many rulebooks and Black Library publications as a subjective swirling miasma of colours plenty of times before, but the thing is that being psychic energy it responds to whomever is watching it and doesn't look the same for everyone, nor does it evoke the same ideas and feelings in everyone watching. Think of it as a Rorschach's inkblot test, where some people see a pair of womens breasts in one blot, while some people see a flower or a butterfly, but the warp being even more subjective to the very point that we're not talking "groups" of people being able to see or sense the same things, but rather it being a completely individual matter.

The deal with psykers is that they have the ability to channel this massive repository of energy into doing their bidding to a certain degree. They have a natural empathic sense of understanding (not an intellectual one like knowledge) of how the warp works and how you can tune your mind in a certain way as to make the warp respond in the way you wish (something that normal humans lack, because they are only passive observers of the warp at best). This understanding comes from the fact that a psykers mind is more open and receptible to the warp's influence on realspace.

Navigators seem to be mutants, genetically engineered to be able to understand a sense of direction in the warp. Whereas no electronic systems or normal human mind could ever hope to ascribe "locations" or "directions" in the warp, a Navigator can. That being said, only the most powerful Navigators can really "see " the patterns and leylines as they really look like, when more novice Navigators see the warp through a filter of concepts more easy for their small mind to comperhend (like seeing the warp as a vast green forest with trees, or being under water with many coral reefs and shoals of fish).

Cardinalsin said:

Anyhoo, I am pondering whether to just ditch my theory, which while attractive to me on grounds of philosophy, is less interesting than actually swimming in a sea of daemons.One way or t'other I think I've found a rationale for the scenario I was hoping to run, i.e. encountering a hulk in the Warp. happy.gif

*crosses fingers that the forum formatting on this post will work*

Well it's all up to the individual GM in the end. My interpretation of the warp is one where I've tried to adhere to the general idea of the warp, and make it seem intimidating, scary and incomperhensible for a human mind. A sort of Lovecraftian Elder God-esque idea of how the warp works (im a huge Lovecraft buff, and I love his ideas of the alien mind being simply "too alien" for a human to comprehend and interprate).

Meaning of course that the less sense it makes, the better. But mine isn't really "better" or "worse" than yours, it's all up to what sort of mood you want the warp to convey. Some people might like the "Stargate portal, key to the universe with hopes and dreams of exploration"-idea, others might like the "playing with a fickle, dangerous but necessary power to travel around, making playing with 10000 hydrogen bombs seem like a "safe hobby"-idea better.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

My theory allows for entire universes to emerge from the Warp. Indeed, that's a core element of my theory - that the Warp is the sea within which universes (yes, the plural is intentional) float. The Warhammer 40,000 universe is one example. The Warhammer World is contained within another universe floating somewhere else in the Warp (two universes, one Warp). There could be millions or billions of other universes out there amongst the Immaterium.

A sort of Spelljammer/Planescape theory, correct?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That, really, is one of the theories about how the vessel known as the Planet Killer came to exist - sightings of it suggest that its structure and capabilities are in defiance of the laws of physics as understood by the Adeptus Mechanicus, which means it was probably constructed at least partially within the Warp.

There is that. Then it might also be a matter of the AdMech just telling that as propaganda. I mean, surely the corrupt and inferior forces of Chaos couldn't ever hope to create a starship of such destructive capabilities that outmatch the most destructive bounties created by the Omnissiah?

Would make kind of sense to claim this. If people are left believing that Abaddon the despoiler doesn't really have a ship capable of blowing up entire planets (not just scouring the surface of them but literaly BLOWING THEM UP!), they should sleep a little better at night. You feel me? gran_risa.gif

Cardinalsin said:

I think that's fair enough, though I do worry about plausibility - would people regularly risk entering the Warp if it was as intimidating as your description suggests? I mean, sure, it's a realm of chaotic energy, but my reasoning is in part that if you can't see that without being a Navigator, then ignorance is bliss.

Remember that most people don't enter the warp. 99% of humanity in the WH40K universe will never leave their planets surface.

There is the old WH40K saying from a navigator "Better to throw a man into a sea opf sharks than let him travel the warp unproteted. Better yet not to let a man know such a thing is possible"

The only reason the Imperium allows warp travel is because it is absolutly vital for there to be an Imperium at all. Personally I think it is the one area where the Adeptus Terra, the Inquisition and the Mechanicum would be flexible on,

If they found a way of traversing the stars using non xenos technology that was as fast as warp travel they would take it.

As for the rest humans as a whole don't truly understand what the warp actually is. If they did then they certainly wouldn't travel.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Hehehe, well to answer your first question: remember that some lunatics actually volunteered to strapping themselves into a pragmatically untested rocket, filled to the brim with volatile fuel, and with a guidance computer system waaay less advanced than the first gameboy released by nintendo, with the goal fo being shot from the surface of the earth into space. A place where it is impossible to survive without the aid of a steady oxygen supply and a space suit with adequate radiation protection.

I dunno about you, but I'd rather strap myself to a rocket and fire myself into a cold and unforgiving vacuum with just a thin spacesuit between me and death, than fly in a sea of malevolent, gibbering psychic energy that can literally unmake me or mutate me in the blink of an eye, even with twelve inches of plasteel and a geller field protecting me.

Varnias Tybalt said:

As for the "size" of things... if real space have a very good possibility of being infinite, im quite sure that a dimension with such alien concepts of physics could have the same possibility.

Well, yes. But my point was more that the area of warpspace corresponding to human-inhabited real space is smaller than its physical counterpart. That said, it's a fair comment that the Warp is inscrutable and so on, so its entirely legitimate to conclude that normal logic doesn't apply.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Well it's all up to the individual GM in the end. My interpretation of the warp is one where I've tried to adhere to the general idea of the warp, and make it seem intimidating, scary and incomperhensible for a human mind. A sort of Lovecraftian Elder God-esque idea of how the warp works (im a huge Lovecraft buff, and I love his ideas of the alien mind being simply "too alien" for a human to comprehend and interprate).

I'm a big fan of Lovecraft too (I just ran a Cthulhu/Cyberpunk crossover game, but that's another story). However, I think there's a crucial difference between the elder gods of the cthulhu mythos and the chaos gods in DH. That is that, while the elder gods are expressions of the theory that the universe is essentially alien and unknowable, and the immediate human experience is an exception to that, daemons and chaos gods in DH are living embodiments of psychic energy. Khorne exists because of the human instinct to fight, to shed blood, and to kill. Slaanesh is the embodiment of the human (or perhaps, eldar) urge to nihilistic, self-destructive pleasure. And so on. The chaos gods are unknowable, yet they represent something fundamentally known - human sin.

Varnias Tybalt said:

But mine isn't really "better" or "worse" than yours, it's all up to what sort of mood you want the warp to convey. Some people might like the "Stargate portal, key to the universe with hopes and dreams of exploration"-idea, others might like the "playing with a fickle, dangerous but necessary power to travel around, making playing with 10000 hydrogen bombs seem like a "safe hobby"-idea better.

Oh, agreed. But the discussion is interesting - and helps me to decide what I want from my game. happy.gif

Visitor Q said:

Remember that most people don't enter the warp. 99% of humanity in the WH40K universe will never leave their planets surface.

True - but in absolute terms, we are talking millions (billions?) of people entering the Warp. Hundreds of thousands of Imperial Guard, trading vessels, and so on. If the Warp is really so mind-blowingly, unfathomably terrifying - well, let's just say that if that were the case I'd definitely be keeping the portholes shut.