The Scum B-Wing is the Ywing with title, ion and R4 agromech, put in front of two of these, and you will be crushed and ioned, and crying.

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Cloaking Device IS really thematic as an Illicit upgrade, though. It really would be pure luck if a bunch of bandits (who likely understand nothing about the incredibly rare cloaking technology) manage to get an actual working cloaking device installed on one of their ships.

I think the best spot to put this upgrade will be in lists NOT built around it, but as a substitute for Glitterstim on ships that really don't need Glitterstim (1 agility ships with access to reroll or focus stacking based upgrades), and in lists that just happen to have a couple points left over.

Actually, the entire Illicit Upgrade slot feels JUST like this. Basing an entire list around any of the Illicit Upgrades is just weird. Feedback Array spam on Z95s is the closest thing, and Glitterstim being close to a requirement on Boba Fett is the other closest. Cloaking Device MAY find its way into a "if I have 2 pts left, then heck yah I'll include it on something like Guri" category. Which honestly isn't all that bad.

However, I cannot lie, when Cloaking Device fails for the first time, I will probably love it EVEN more than if it always worked.

I think the best spot to put this upgrade will be in lists NOT built around it, but as a substitute for Glitterstim on ships that really don't need Glitterstim (1 agility ships with access to reroll or focus stacking based upgrades), and in lists that just happen to have a couple points left over.

I'm pretty sure you just exactly described the G1A.

Another thought: Zuckuss likes Sensor Jammer. If you use your Focus to break through the Jammer, you cant use it to boost your extra green dice that Zuckuss grants. This pretty much makes his ability pure good. Really good if he can grab some dice modifications, which shouldn't be a problem.

Doubles up on Palob synergy, too

So an expensive ship that can solo a similar number of points is a problem? Makes sense to me... 50 points should be able to beat, equal, or come very very close to beating another 50 points of another style. As should 100 points vs 100.

Sorry, didn't word my statements well enough.

It's a problem when you have ~48 points of normal ships like TIEs or whatever that autolose to a 48 point Corran. 60 points of normal ships such as TIE Fighters autolose to a 58 point Dash.

It's not actually all that close most of the time. You have half of your normal ship list left vs half of your opponent's Acewing/Fat Turretwing list and you're losing.

And you can't block them once with your net of numerical superiority? Really, if you block them up once, you beat them.

Sorry, before you post a response I just want to say I'm not looking to start a flame war. That last comment I left was needlessly snippy. Just like to spark some discussion.

Your match up will inevitably have an affect on your game, but the way you fly it still matters. Block Corran with one of your Crack TIEs, and let the other ones snort their crack. Corran will fold.

Even without Crack Shot, a good block CAN put you in position to kill those aces. I've killed Soontir Fel before using a trio of Bandits (so about the same point cost. Spread my formation out, managed to catch Soontir with a block from one, another was waiting in R1 with a TL+Focus. Soontir derped on his green dice and got one shot by a Bandit.

It's not easy, the advantage is definitely in favor of the ace. But to call being in that situation "auto-lose" is hyperbole.

...

...

There is one thing the Myst hunter or the G1-ba(whatever) ship has going for it and that is the evade token. Now will it survive against TLT? The answer is only if it is at range 1. Really what the Myst hunter needs to make it completely safe from TLTs is a second evade token but then it starts getting to C-3PO+Falcon levels of defense. Though the TLT was designed to counter 2 hard defense and crackshot makes evade tokens I can tell you from experience getting only 2 hits/crits on a TLT happens quite a lot (even with Horton behind the guns WTF?!?!!?!?)

Practice tells us that Falcon is protected against TLTs only using Boost.

the tokens aren't that effective when you're a 1-evade trunk.

It takes 2-3 to actually have decent chances.

I did say the only way to ensure it's survival is a 2nd evade token. But you are right a boost to range 1 would be better defense against a single TLT than having 2 evade tokens. As for multiple TLTs well it all comes down to dice. As long as they don't roll 3 hits and as long as you can roll an evade you will have a better chance. Evade tokens work better on lower agility than higher agility for defensive purposes but with TLT and crackshot for those 3+ agility w/tokens tanks all the 1 agility ships sort have became collateral damage despite the number of hitpoints.

I'm not so sure I am with you on that. B-wings with Sensor Jammer can make TLTs have a bad day. That being said I think the Mist Hunter will fall into a similar role.

I think TLTs/Autothruster dynamic is going to be a meta thing. You are either making them irrelevant via HP or via AGI. Most of the lists I have seen locally or the one Store Champ posted in the US, seem to bear this out. Z's still have a place, but only in terms of a true swarm. They can counter TLTs very well, since there isn't enough damage to stop them all, and depending on the PS you may lose a Ywing before you even get to shoot your TLT.

Hope it helps. 8)

So in the second post, I learn that it's true: TLTs are over-powered.

I wonder if anyone predicted this?

...

...

There is one thing the Myst hunter or the G1-ba(whatever) ship has going for it and that is the evade token. Now will it survive against TLT? The answer is only if it is at range 1. Really what the Myst hunter needs to make it completely safe from TLTs is a second evade token but then it starts getting to C-3PO+Falcon levels of defense. Though the TLT was designed to counter 2 hard defense and crackshot makes evade tokens I can tell you from experience getting only 2 hits/crits on a TLT happens quite a lot (even with Horton behind the guns WTF?!?!!?!?)

Practice tells us that Falcon is protected against TLTs only using Boost.

the tokens aren't that effective when you're a 1-evade trunk.

It takes 2-3 to actually have decent chances.

I did say the only way to ensure it's survival is a 2nd evade token. But you are right a boost to range 1 would be better defense against a single TLT than having 2 evade tokens. As for multiple TLTs well it all comes down to dice. As long as they don't roll 3 hits and as long as you can roll an evade you will have a better chance. Evade tokens work better on lower agility than higher agility for defensive purposes but with TLT and crackshot for those 3+ agility w/tokens tanks all the 1 agility ships sort have became collateral damage despite the number of hitpoints.

TLT was an effort to end the PWT horror movie.

It seems a 2-attack 4-point version could have coped up with that, and an overkill blew most PWTs off the board along with other 1-dodgers.

I can't really justify the TLT and Autothruster completely reversing the jouster-turret-dodger triangle backwards

Like I said before, the effect on TLT v 1 agi is overrated

They're only as op as the PS 2 Y frame is alive. With higher ps on your side, they shouldn't be for long

PWTS suffer because they don't have the firepower (though they have the mobility and TLTs, unlike them, can be outplayed via doughnuthole)

Dengar, with the proper build, should be able to cope well v TLTs with at least one wingman (If not, a cohort of Zs) due to his ability. Otherwise, the ordnance jumpy should have 0 issues

As for the big G, it'll fall to the dial and ultimate cost, but at PS 3 innate they can kill Ys before the ys shoot

Anyone have any thoughts about combining the Illicit Cloak with the Stealth Device? Could use this combo on the Aggressor, Firespray, Hawk-290, "Virago", Khiraxz, G1-A, Jumpmaster 5k, YV-666, and Z-95.

Have to admit the thought of a swarm of cloaking Z's sounds rather amusing. Not sure it would be all that effective on most of the ships but could be interesting.

Alternatively, you could get the Stygium Particle Accelerator with the Illicit Cloak on the Aggressor, G1-A, and the "Virago".

naked green dice = imminent failure

stacking that on top of the bull rng of cloaking device does not a sound plan make

cloak is also unique, and small ship only (large ship displacement on de-cloak would be broken as ****)

Cloaking Device IS really thematic as an Illicit upgrade, though. It really would be pure luck if a bunch of bandits (who likely understand nothing about the incredibly rare cloaking technology) manage to get an actual working cloaking device installed on one of their ships.

I think the best spot to put this upgrade will be in lists NOT built around it, but as a substitute for Glitterstim on ships that really don't need Glitterstim (1 agility ships with access to reroll or focus stacking based upgrades), and in lists that just happen to have a couple points left over.

Actually, the entire Illicit Upgrade slot feels JUST like this. Basing an entire list around any of the Illicit Upgrades is just weird. Feedback Array spam on Z95s is the closest thing, and Glitterstim being close to a requirement on Boba Fett is the other closest. Cloaking Device MAY find its way into a "if I have 2 pts left, then heck yah I'll include it on something like Guri" category. Which honestly isn't all that bad.

However, I cannot lie, when Cloaking Device fails for the first time, I will probably love it EVEN more than if it always worked.

And some are gambles on top of that. And cloaking device is certainly not a worse gamble than Stealth devices for example. What it gives you at least, unless you die before that, is one decloak move, and 2 green dice for one shooting phase. That is actually not that bad, even if it works only once.

It's completely illogical to say that any upgrade that does not have a 100% certain effect is useless. We use them all the time. And even if it includes a gamble on top of that, it's not automatically bad! Stealth devices are used, Lando Calrissian got played for a while (okay with C3PO admittedly)!

Additionally, i don't think a cloaking action is overpriced at 2 points, even if it should break down on the first occasion. Scum can put it on the Virago, and even if it's only one ship and it doesn't have an ACD (thank The Force, because it nearly broke the whole game) they will be the only faction to put down a ship with 5 defense dice. 6 with Stealth if you want to go that way.

It is exactly that type of sometimes risky synergy and combos that can make or break competitive ships. Because they reach a critical mass of defensive or offensive upgrades.

For example: Corran with R2-D2? Expensive and therefore risky, but totally worth it!

Like I said before, the effect on TLT v 1 agi is overrated

They're only as op as the PS 2 Y frame is alive. With higher ps on your side, they shouldn't be for long

PWTS suffer because they don't have the firepower (though they have the mobility and TLTs, unlike them, can be outplayed via doughnuthole)

Dengar, with the proper build, should be able to cope well v TLTs with at least one wingman (If not, a cohort of Zs) due to his ability. Otherwise, the ordnance jumpy should have 0 issues

As for the big G, it'll fall to the dial and ultimate cost, but at PS 3 innate they can kill Ys before the ys shoot

It's actually not that easy to deal with TLTs. The key is to kill one before they fire. But that is easier said thandone! You need at least enough reliable damage to kill one Y before it can shoot. So minimum 8 dice. It would also be good if you fired from R2 at least. Which is not always doable, but mostly if you have higher PS.

Either you do that or you send in ships that can nearly guarantee to survive multiple turns of TLT fire so they can outlast them. Which is even more of a rarity.

Dengar should be able to fire 3-4 times (shoots first, returns fire, shoots again first, maybe retaliates again) before going down at the very least. Which is not bad, but not far from what the falcon can do. Not sure if that's enough though!

It's actually not that easy to deal with TLTs.

Like I said before, the effect on TLT v 1 agi is overrated

They're only as op as the PS 2 Y frame is alive. With higher ps on your side, they shouldn't be for long

PWTS suffer because they don't have the firepower (though they have the mobility and TLTs, unlike them, can be outplayed via doughnuthole)

Dengar, with the proper build, should be able to cope well v TLTs with at least one wingman (If not, a cohort of Zs) due to his ability. Otherwise, the ordnance jumpy should have 0 issues

As for the big G, it'll fall to the dial and ultimate cost, but at PS 3 innate they can kill Ys before the ys shoot

It's actually not that easy to deal with TLTs. The key is to kill one before they fire. But that is easier said thandone! You need at least enough reliable damage to kill one Y before it can shoot. So minimum 8 dice. It would also be good if you fired from R2 at least. Which is not always doable, but mostly if you have higher PS.

Either you do that or you send in ships that can nearly guarantee to survive multiple turns of TLT fire so they can outlast them. Which is even more of a rarity.

Dengar should be able to fire 3-4 times (shoots first, returns fire, shoots again first, maybe retaliates again) before going down at the very least. Which is not bad, but not far from what the falcon can do. Not sure if that's enough though!

On the p1's side, it's all down to positioning. You can copy heaver and bring 3 bs soldiers to help you out a lot, though. 3 of them + dengar double tap (if they're foolish enough to attack him) should end a Y

If you're going torp boat, though, you can get two of the buggers and a crackstim cobra.

With re-rolls + GC/stims, you should have little issue piling on 11 hits. Even with a perfect 4 evades (1 per torp; 2 v cobra), crackShot will secure the kill

Odds are you won't need crack, though. You've got better odds of critting it to death between the two torp shots

When the ordnance is spent, You got two higher PS mobile (more mobile than Ys anyway) large base pwts with barrel roll and r4 aggro.

TLTs aren't really the meta boogeymen they're made out to be. They've had a marked impact , same as crackshot and regent (worlds top 2), but they're nowhere NEAR the first huge meta shift (prenerf phantom)

nothing

@ForceM

I wasn't calling them useless, I was actually agreeing with you that Cloaking Device will be a solid upgrade

It just won't as easily fit into just ANY list and make sense.

I personally see it great use for it the round just before combat, letting you decloak the next round (or the end phase of that round if it breaks) and wildly change your position.

And by far, Cloaking Device is far less situational than Dead Man's Switch, in that, you actually get to choose when to use it, and at least get part of the effect no matter what.

Like I said before, the effect on TLT v 1 agi is overrated

They're only as op as the PS 2 Y frame is alive. With higher ps on your side, they shouldn't be for long

PWTS suffer because they don't have the firepower (though they have the mobility and TLTs, unlike them, can be outplayed via doughnuthole)

Dengar, with the proper build, should be able to cope well v TLTs with at least one wingman (If not, a cohort of Zs) due to his ability. Otherwise, the ordnance jumpy should have 0 issues

As for the big G, it'll fall to the dial and ultimate cost, but at PS 3 innate they can kill Ys before the ys shoot

It's actually not that easy to deal with TLTs. The key is to kill one before they fire. But that is easier said thandone! You need at least enough reliable damage to kill one Y before it can shoot. So minimum 8 dice. It would also be good if you fired from R2 at least. Which is not always doable, but mostly if you have higher PS.

Either you do that or you send in ships that can nearly guarantee to survive multiple turns of TLT fire so they can outlast them. Which is even more of a rarity.

Dengar should be able to fire 3-4 times (shoots first, returns fire, shoots again first, maybe retaliates again) before going down at the very least. Which is not bad, but not far from what the falcon can do. Not sure if that's enough though!

It's not hard to kill 8 health, 1 agi with concentrated fire. With a hefty 3 dice primary + the ability to fit four of the guys, one rounding a Y shouldn't be an issue

On the p1's side, it's all down to positioning. You can copy heaver and bring 3 bs soldiers to help you out a lot, though. 3 of them + dengar double tap (if they're foolish enough to attack him) should end a Y

If you're going torp boat, though, you can get two of the buggers and a crackstim cobra.

With re-rolls + GC/stims, you should have little issue piling on 11 hits. Even with a perfect 4 evades (1 per torp; 2 v cobra), crackShot will secure the kill

Odds are you won't need crack, though. You've got better odds of critting it to death between the two torp shots

When the ordnance is spent, You got two higher PS mobile (more mobile than Ys anyway) large base pwts with barrel roll and r4 aggro.

TLTs aren't really the meta boogeymen they're made out to be. They've had a marked impact , same as crackshot and regent (worlds top 2), but they're nowhere NEAR the first huge meta shift (prenerf phantom)

Well it depends on how you equip Dengar and how manypoints he will have left for escorts. If you make a punishing one 2-ship ace list then having the 8 dice will not be that easy. With the double tap and a 3 AD escort you will have had 9 red dice after the first Y fired at you. That's not enough unless you hit everything and he doesn't evade anything.

Non-Fat Dengar should have enough other ships around to get the 8 damage in however!

@ForceM

I wasn't calling them useless, I was actually agreeing with you that Cloaking Device will be a solid upgrade

It just won't as easily fit into just ANY list and make sense.

I personally see it great use for it the round just before combat, letting you decloak the next round (or the end phase of that round if it breaks) and wildly change your position.

And by far, Cloaking Device is far less situational than Dead Man's Switch, in that, you actually get to choose when to use it, and at least get part of the effect no matter what.

For my part i think no upgrade fits in every list, although it's hard to not justify Autothrusters in most...

I think we will see cloaking mostly on Guri and Xizor, maybe on the Kihraxzes too!

The G1A does not win enough with the defensive 2 dice imho to be a good carrier.

Cloaking Device IS really thematic as an Illicit upgrade, though. It really would be pure luck if a bunch of bandits (who likely understand nothing about the incredibly rare cloaking technology) manage to get an actual working cloaking device installed on one of their ships.

I think the best spot to put this upgrade will be in lists NOT built around it, but as a substitute for Glitterstim on ships that really don't need Glitterstim (1 agility ships with access to reroll or focus stacking based upgrades), and in lists that just happen to have a couple points left over.

Actually, the entire Illicit Upgrade slot feels JUST like this. Basing an entire list around any of the Illicit Upgrades is just weird. Feedback Array spam on Z95s is the closest thing, and Glitterstim being close to a requirement on Boba Fett is the other closest. Cloaking Device MAY find its way into a "if I have 2 pts left, then heck yah I'll include it on something like Guri" category. Which honestly isn't all that bad.

However, I cannot lie, when Cloaking Device fails for the first time, I will probably love it EVEN more than if it always worked.

Every ship, every upgrade is situational, because you will run into situations where you wom't need it in this game. For example you might not need your hull upgrade, or you never have to boost with Engine Upgrade!

And some are gambles on top of that. And cloaking device is certainly not a worse gamble than Stealth devices for example. What it gives you at least, unless you die before that, is one decloak move, and 2 green dice for one shooting phase. That is actually not that bad, even if it works only once.

It's completely illogical to say that any upgrade that does not have a 100% certain effect is useless. We use them all the time. And even if it includes a gamble on top of that, it's not automatically bad! Stealth devices are used, Lando Calrissian got played for a while (okay with C3PO admittedly)!

Additionally, i don't think a cloaking action is overpriced at 2 points, even if it should break down on the first occasion. Scum can put it on the Virago, and even if it's only one ship and it doesn't have an ACD (thank The Force, because it nearly broke the whole game) they will be the only faction to put down a ship with 5 defense dice. 6 with Stealth if you want to go that way.

It is exactly that type of sometimes risky synergy and combos that can make or break competitive ships. Because they reach a critical mass of defensive or offensive upgrades.

For example: Corran with R2-D2? Expensive and therefore risky, but totally worth it!

I agree with you entirely. You plan around it. You treat it like it will fail first time. 2 points for a one use cloak is still pretty fair so every use after that is a bonus. If it was permanent it would have to be 4-5 points and that's getting too pricey. All Illicit upgrades have a downside, you just have to use them cleverly. It's thematic, unpredictable and I can't wait!

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Off topic: The "RNG is bad" argument is getting boring now. It's a dice game. Dice = RNG. That's half the fun; edge of your seat, last gasp dice rolls. Player skill sets up the situation, RNG makes it exciting. I don't mean to be rude and I'm not interested in a flame war or slanging match. I just hate the negativity. Personally I love the random parts of the game. If other people disagree, that's cool.

Just my 2 pence.

Off topic: The "RNG is bad" argument is getting boring now. It's a dice game. Dice = RNG. That's half the fun; edge of your seat, last gasp dice rolls. Player skill sets up the situation, RNG makes it exciting. I don't mean to be rude and I'm not interested in a flame war or slanging match. I just hate the negativity. Personally I love the random parts of the game. If other people disagree, that's cool.

Just my 2 pence.

To clarify my position a bit, since I think I'm the guy that started the 'RNG=bad' argument.

I totally understand the appeal of having dice in a mass-market game. A diceless, all skill game like chess means the best player will practically always win. While this might work for computer games (where the opposition pool is measured in hundreds of thousands, maybe millions) for tabletop games, where the pool of opponents in a local community seldom exceeds a few dozen (I think), getting the same faces at the top every time might grow stale after a time. Dice add uncertainty, give you hope and in the long run make sure the better player will at least occasionally lose.

Now to the cloaking device: I view the ability to cloak as a pretty big deal. A single die roll decides whether you get to cloak again or not after the first use. That IMO is putting way too much weight on a single die roll.

Question as I read this thread: what is RNG?

Random Number Generator.

Or dice.

Random Number Generator.

Or dice.

Thank you. I figured from context the R was Random, but the rest I was unsure on.

Personally, I find the random element fits the nature of war. No matter how well any general plans and trains his troops, completely unexpected and uncontrollable elements on the battlefield can seriously screw up the best tactics.

Off topic: The "RNG is bad" argument is getting boring now. It's a dice game. Dice = RNG. That's half the fun; edge of your seat, last gasp dice rolls. Player skill sets up the situation, RNG makes it exciting. I don't mean to be rude and I'm not interested in a flame war or slanging match. I just hate the negativity. Personally I love the random parts of the game. If other people disagree, that's cool.

Just my 2 pence.

To clarify my position a bit, since I think I'm the guy that started the 'RNG=bad' argument.

I totally understand the appeal of having dice in a mass-market game. A diceless, all skill game like chess means the best player will practically always win. While this might work for computer games (where the opposition pool is measured in hundreds of thousands, maybe millions) for tabletop games, where the pool of opponents in a local community seldom exceeds a few dozen (I think), getting the same faces at the top every time might grow stale after a time. Dice add uncertainty, give you hope and in the long run make sure the better player will at least occasionally lose.

Now to the cloaking device: I view the ability to cloak as a pretty big deal. A single die roll decides whether you get to cloak again or not after the first use. That IMO is putting way too much weight on a single die roll.

Fair enough. Thank you for explaining your viewpoint. I see where you're coming from & I respect your opinion.

Well I guess we'll see how it goes over time & in different lists. Do you reckon you'll still use it?