I understand the business decisions to sell the hard copy for a bit then offer the pdf to combat piracy. It feels like it's been a few weeks since the official release of the hard cover, so how much longer is it going to be until pdf release.

I don't know for sure, but in general it's 3-4 weeks between the hardcopy release and the PDF release.

I really don't know why companies still do this. I've heard two main reasons. One is that it helps FLGS owners. The other, like you mentioned, is piracy. I find the rationale bogus in both cases.

FLGS: I think the premise here is that Hardcopies and PDFs are competing products and that having a hardcopy available earlier is going to mean people buy them, This is not the case. I'm going to buy a hardcopy if I want a Hardcopy or the PDF if I want that. They don't compete. You want the two for different reasons. It doesn't hurt to make a PDF available alongside a hardcopy because I (and most people I know these days) won't buy a hardcopy regardless. If a book does not have a PDF available, well that company isn't getting my money. Even if If I want to support FLGS I'm going to do so regardless of what product is available when. I have waited longer for product to become available and paid more than I would have had I ordered a product from the internet explicitly because I wanted to support my FLGS. Let's face it, FLGS will never compete with Amazon or other online sources when it comes to price and convenience. It's not going to happen. FLGS stay in business (or not) based on the services they provide and how well they generate loyalty in their customer base. People with choose to support their FLGS on its merits and not on a three week excusivity period. Releasing PDFs on time for those who do not want hard copies is not taking food from anybody's mouth.

Piracy: The assumption is that everybody is going to run out and pirate the new product immediately. If somebody is intent on pirating the product three weeks isn't going to stop them. The vast majority of people want to pay for products that are of good quality so that the company keeps making them. I want to give you my money if your product is good. I think you deserve it. But restricting my access to that product because you're treating me like a potential criminal when all I want to do is buy your products is a very good way to alienate me. Alienate enough people and your business is going to fail. There's also the argument that piracy absolutely sells books, but that's a topic for another thread.

So, yeah, I really wish FFG would stop this bogus 'You have to wait for the PDF' garbage. All it does is frustrate me and make me feel like a second-class customer. Don't they want my hard earned money? I can always just spend it elsewhere.

The other problem with the piracy argument is that, while it does delay pirated copies being available, they still become available before the pdf is officially released.

I don't run games where I live, which means transporting my rulebooks to where I have the game. Since any rulebook might suddenly become necessary, I need to carry them all. That's a lot of weight for hardcopy versions. But I can stick all the pdfs on my laptop, which also has my campaign notes on it, and carry everything on there. So I regularly find that my choices are:

- Hardcopies. Which are too heavy to be convenient.

- legal pdfs. Which aren't out yet.

- Pirated .pdfs. The most convenient version.

Gabe Newell has said that Piracy Is a Service Problem . I agree with that. The pirated version being superior to the legal version(s) is the kind of service problem that encourages piracy.

I prefer PDFs for many of the same reasons. That, and storage space. You run out of bookshelves pretty quickly as an RPG hobbyist. It's just more convenient to have a library of books on a device of some sort.

I think you're absolutely right that service is the main problem, Bilateralrope. Why make it harder for people to support your company than not? That seems like an awful idea from the perspective of a business. Like I mentioned, I think the PDF problem comes from FLGS owners putting pressure on FFG and distributors because they think the delay helps their sales when it doesn't.

I wish FFG had enough respect for us as customers to just state their reasons for doing it the way they do, because as it is, it doesn't make me feel very respected as a supporter of their business.

I think they have been releasing the last few about two weeks after they hit the stores.

I usually prefer to have source books and supplement books as searchable PDFs, and thus buy them from drivethroughrpg when they come out.

If I run a published adventure, I like to have the hard cover version as it just feels good at the table.

Like I mentioned, I think the PDF problem comes from FLGS owners putting pressure on FFG and distributors because they think the delay helps their sales when it doesn't.

The hardcopy being the only version available probably increases hardcopy sales. Increasing hardcopy sales would help FLGS', because they only get money when hardcopy versions are sold. So they use what pressure they have to benefit themselves.

A similar thing happens with video games. The Brick and Mortar stores profit from selling the physical copies. A very large chunk of their profit comes from second hand sales. They don't get any money from digital distribution. So they are using the influence they have to try and fight it.

Oh, I get the rationale and why FLGS and FFG do what they do according to the 'Brick and Mortar' argument--I just think they are quantitatively wrong about it and ultimately all it does it hurt digital sales on FFGs behalf. Nobody I know buys a hardcopy because it's the only version available. They either hold out for the PDF to release or they find the pirated version that is actually available. Maybe somebody out there does actually buy a book instead. Maybe . But people want different types of copies for different reasons as this thread has outlined. Buying a Hardcopy when you really need a PDF isn't going to help you really. So I doubt that this gap in the availablity of the PDF is actually bumping FLGS sales much if at all. Maybe FLGSs say it does and FFG back them out of necessity, but is it really the case? I've certainly never seen anybody attempt to present definitive hard sales data on it. So maybe it's an actual thing and maybe it's not. Since nobody seems to willing to share data on it, all I have to go on is my own experience and the experiences my peers share with me and that leads me to believe that it's just something FLGS perpetuate because they are ignortant of how things work. So, no, based on what I have to go on, limited though it may be, I am not convinced that the PDF delay helps book sales appreciably.

What it does do is hurt digital sales by presenting that service problem that you mentioned-- "Well, I want to support FFG, but I'd like to have this new material for use in my game this weekend and since I cannot buy a copy even though I want to I guess I'll just grab this scan of the hardcopy somebody posted." I'm not saying that is right at all, but it does happen. People are impatient even if they are often well intentioned. Maybe some of those people go buy the book later. But what percen tage don't? It'd be difficult to get data here but not impossible. FFG could release the PDF copy of a book simultaneously and see if they see an appreciable increase in the number of PDF copies sold and/or a proportional drop in number of hard copies sold. If they did that then released their data and the 'Brick and Mortal' argument was proven correct then I wouldn't be mad about a delay at all. I'd be absolutely fine with it. I'd encourage it. But until that point, I'm going to continue to feel that the practice is ultimately more harmful to the sales of their various lines than it is helpful and that they are treating me ultimately as an unwanted customer which really does eventually affect their bottom line. If there are a few products coming out that I want, but I can't afford all of them then I will always purchase the product of the company that has treated me better in the past. Maybe that's just me? If not then that money must add up eventually. It's why business practices matter.

Maybe FLGSs say it does and FFG back them out of necessity

Deception is unlikely. More likely is "If you want us to stock this product then you will delay the digital release by x days". With them selling enough copies that FFG gives in.

Right. That's exactly what I meant. I'm didn't mean to imply that FLGS are intentionally being deceitful. I'm saying that they are likely perpetuating something they believe to be true but actually isn't and using that belief as a basis to strong arm FFG. People inadvertently spread misinformation all the time. So it's likely FLGS owners believe that the practice genuinely does have a benefit. I just think that ultimately the practice hurts FFG more than it helps and it certainly hurts the consumer. So I think they should take a hard look at the process and reassess it.

I could be completely wrong, but maybe a digital copy's release date is based upon the % of the first print run being sold, like "Once 50% of the first print run is sold, the PDF can be released" .

Again - I'm just speculating, I don't actually know - but that could be a reason.

BYE

Right. That's exactly what I meant. I'm didn't mean to imply that FLGS are intentionally being deceitful. I'm saying that they are likely perpetuating something they believe to be true but actually isn't and using that belief as a basis to strong arm FFG. People inadvertently spread misinformation all the time. So it's likely FLGS owners believe that the practice genuinely does have a benefit. I just think that ultimately the practice hurts FFG more than it helps and it certainly hurts the consumer. So I think they should take a hard look at the process and reassess it.

You're still assuming that the FLGS owners believe that holding back the pdf benefits everyone when it's not true. You're assuming that they do not understand their own business.

I'm saying that they know it's not true. They don't even pretend that it's true. But they push pdf delays because it benefits them and they put their own profits above what benefits FFG and/or the customers.

That would be stupid as if the hardcopy sold less than planned then any problems caused by not selling enough of the hardcopy are compounded by them denying the pdf to people who will only buy the pdf.

You're still assuming that the FLGS owners believe that holding back the pdf benefits everyone when it's not true. You're assuming that they do not understand their own business.

I'm saying that they know it's not true. They don't even pretend that it's true. But they push pdf delays because it benefits them and they put their own profits above what benefits FFG and/or the customers.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Well, if it is intentional than it's even worse and harmful not only to the industry as a whole, but ultimately to the FLGS itself. In that situation whatever benefit the FLGS sees in the short-term, IF there is a benefit at all, would likely be outweighted by the loss of sales that FFG sees from the PDF service problem. If those sale hurt FFG bad enough they may drop a line of products leaving the FLGS with nothing to sell at all.

Like I mentioned, I think the PDF problem comes from FLGS owners putting pressure on FFG and distributors because they think the delay helps their sales when it doesn't.

The hardcopy being the only version available probably increases hardcopy sales. Increasing hardcopy sales would help FLGS', because they only get money when hardcopy versions are sold. So they use what pressure they have to benefit themselves.

A similar thing happens with video games. The Brick and Mortar stores profit from selling the physical copies. A very large chunk of their profit comes from second hand sales. They don't get any money from digital distribution. So they are using the influence they have to try and fight it.

I am forced to buy the Star Wars books as physical books. I buy them through Amazon as that is the cheapest I can get them. As soon as FFG ends this line of books, I will buy no more physical books. The Star Wars line is the only line I buy of physical books now. I only buy PDFs otherwise.

The Star Wars line was something I was hesitant to bring up since this is the DH forum, but even in your situation, FLGS aren't benefiting from a lack of PDF availability. You don't even buy from them.

FFG's Star Wars line is something I would get into if PDFs were available to buy at all, but they aren't.

The price of hardcover RPG books is a racket almost comparable with college textbooks. I can't imagine FFG spending a whole lot on the writing or art, given that much is copy/paste from other books. Production could be expensive but not anywhere near how much they charge for a single book. The entire OW line costs $285 for all the books in hardcover, and I don't even want to check how much DH1 would be.

If they are wondering why people pirate their books, that's why.

You're still assuming that the FLGS owners believe that holding back the pdf benefits everyone when it's not true. You're assuming that they do not understand their own business.

I'm saying that they know it's not true. They don't even pretend that it's true. But they push pdf delays because it benefits them and they put their own profits above what benefits FFG and/or the customers.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Well, if it is intentional than it's even worse and harmful not only to the industry as a whole, but ultimately to the FLGS itself. In that situation whatever benefit the FLGS sees in the short-term, IF there is a benefit at all, would likely be outweighted by the loss of sales that FFG sees from the PDF service problem. If those sale hurt FFG bad enough they may drop a line of products leaving the FLGS with nothing to sell at all.

The FLGS has a choice. Fight digital releases as much as they can to squeeze income from RPG books for a bit longer or do nothing and lose that revenue source sooner. In the long term they lose that revenue source either way.

The price of hardcover RPG books is a racket almost comparable with college textbooks. I can't imagine FFG spending a whole lot on the writing or art, given that much is copy/paste from other books. Production could be expensive but not anywhere near how much they charge for a single book. The entire OW line costs $285 for all the books in hardcover, and I don't even want to check how much DH1 would be.

If they are wondering why people pirate their books, that's why.

College textbooks cost over a hundred dollars apiece. Some cost many hundreds of dollars apiece. I believe the RPG business is very low margin. This is why you see these companies doing cards to supplement the income. No, they are not raking in the money from RPGs. Also remember that all licensed material has a cut going to the people that own the license.

Its about to be a month from the release of the hard cover and still no pdf with no news of when it's coming out

Well, no legal pdf. I don't know about the illegal pdfs, but I'd be surprised if they don't have scans up yet.

Why does FFG seem to like the current situation of the illegal version being the best version for many people ?

I feel like the red headed step child.

They won't even say if The Worlds of Android will be released as PDF.

I feel like the red headed step child.

They won't even say if The Worlds of Android will be released as PDF.

Oh, it will be released as a PDF. Even if FFG doesn't want to release a PDF an illegal PDF will be/has been released for piracy.

I feel like the red headed step child.

They won't even say if The Worlds of Android will be released as PDF.

Oh, it will be released as a PDF. Even if FFG doesn't want to release a PDF an illegal PDF will be/has been released for piracy.

I am quite sure FFG will release the Dark Heresy PDF. I have no intention of supporting the people or sites that provide the downloads. If a company does not market a product to me, I do not purchase it. Nor do I support it.

When you download a illegal reproduction of the product, you are denying yourself a vote in the way the business runs. This is the reason I hate it when companies release "free" products. The products are not truly free, only that other people are paying for them. Businesses will do what the people paying them tell them what to do. It is stupid to surrender that power and live at the mercy of others.

I feel like the red headed step child.

They won't even say if The Worlds of Android will be released as PDF.

Oh, it will be released as a PDF. Even if FFG doesn't want to release a PDF an illegal PDF will be/has been released for piracy.

I am quite sure FFG will release the Dark Heresy PDF. I have no intention of supporting the people or sites that provide the downloads. If a company does not market a product to me, I do not purchase it. Nor do I support it.

When you download a illegal reproduction of the product, you are denying yourself a vote in the way the business runs. This is the reason I hate it when companies release "free" products. The products are not truly free, only that other people are paying for them. Businesses will do what the people paying them tell them what to do. It is stupid to surrender that power and live at the mercy of others.

Uh huh... so where is it?

On the Internet Boats, presumably.