I don't see how this guy neuters Yi Shan** any more than anyone else, since I believe Yi Shan** runs best playing strings of attacks, and spamming Stun attacks (or manufacturing Stun attacks with his Tiger Claw in the momentum), which matches up pretty well against it. I'd also like to point out that this character may actually make people run him off Water (though I agree with the consensus that All and Chaos are still better at the moment). However, the utter lack of committal protection available to him means his E won't really see all that much play (once per turn max in most games, if that), except as a problem matchup for the Fire bruiser deck who tosses out throws for some redonkulous damage, and hey, who says that's a bad thing? Plus, they can deal with him by packing attack with healthy Stun ratings and/or targeted committing (hellooooo, Zi Mei's Wheel Kick and Pommel Smash ), so yeah, he's nice, but there are answers to him already.

Also, this guy marks the resurgence of grey-area characters, BUT he's minus the protection which made the game so boring to play pre-rotation. So yeah, they can be beat on now.

LordAggro said:

There is no way Striking Thunder nor Yi Shan's Tiger Claw will ever make it to momentum, the two pieces that kind of help him beat face.

If it was an R , I'd agree with you. Since it's an E , you get to at least bust out a Stun E . Playing Hilt Impact as a setup to eliminate the available foundations first also helps. I know he's a bad matchup for Yi Shan** , but he's not insurmountable... also, you realistically won't get to play it 'till about T3.

The fact that we're having the conversation of "strategies against this character" is pretty bad all on it's own. But sure, let's look at what we know, right now, as answers to Kilik from a symbol perspective... and that's Speed Pump, Stun, and Character Commital:

• Speed Pump: Air, Death, Fire, Life, Good
• Stun: Air, Chaos, Fire, All, Order
• Character Commital: Pommel Smash (All, Fire, Order)
• Symbols Not Listed Above: Earth, Water, Void, Evil
• Symbols Listed for all 3: Fire

A character is not an option for an answer to another character, so Rashotep and JJ hardly qualify as real answers. The other part that's really bad here is how badly Kilik would destroy people playing Earth, Water, Void, or Evil decks. If you can't kill him turn 3 by throwing 5 attacks at him (2 of them get removed, 3 have to do 8 damage each on average), you're not going to win. It's not like discard works, he's probably not going to have much of a hand normally since it's easy to rely on his character to discard attacks.

We may see anti removal from card pool in the next SC4 set, but that's not until December, and if it's there, I'd sure like to see that spoiled ASAP before he turns into NPEs at local stores.

Nyobari said:

I love you lots sir, but I cannot disagree more with your thoughts on Kilik and in general people complaining he is a grey char.

The Game is built to be played by many different styles of decks, while defensive decks have been scarce in NEWFS they are a staple of the game and ANY card game really. Some decks try to win with lotso f nasty attacks, other decks try to win by forcing you off your nasty attacks and using the old slow and steady or Slow and KAPOW.

This is completely okay, because right now if you want to play a defensive deck, your choices are so limited they are basically non-existant.

There is also a TON of ways to deal with his ability, seriously, a ton. Earth and Void can both use valued but not trusted and just shut him off for their big attacks just for a unlisted example. Plus, he HAS to kill you too, with no offensive abilities, sure is going to be rough, look at the best chars currently in the game, they ALL have a offensive ability, all of them, they are also all exceptional chars.

The block is fulled with chars that are good at what they do. Kilik is just another one.

failed2k said:

This is 100% right on the money. The game needs different techs and different paces. Kilik isn't going to break the game, he is going to force players to play differently, which is what a good character insertion does.

Think of it this way, most attacks have an average of 3 speed and 5 damage, ok - this may be hard to determine an average, but bear with me here.

How many foundations does it take to reduce the 5 damage to zero with the damage reduction out? 3 foundations tops, probably 2 if you have strong damage reduction. In other words we have tap 2 to go to zero. Kilik would have to tap 3, he isn't far and away better than the damage reduction we have out.

Of course that is like comparing apples and oranges, and Kilik can use any foundations, yadayada, but the point is we can already wipe out attacks by comitting fewer, these decks still get squashed.

I'm not saying Kilik won't make waves, becuase he will, most promo characters tend to or at least have the ingrained potential... In any case, there is a lot of over-reaction on this thread.

The game is going to grow-up from mostly random damage wars to one that has a little more back and forth with different paths to victory, likely the same victory condition, just different paths there.

I'm happy to see a character like Kilik released and it should be interesting to see how viable he is in practice.

- dut

Nyobari said:

Your analysis is off; Eart h has Close Throw , Hilt Impact , and Yi Shan's Tiger Claw to Stun people senseless, and did I mention those all share Life ? There's plenty of ways to deal with Kilik* without having to bend over backwards.

@dutpotd, failed2k: Couldn't agree more with you guys; Lu Chen** is one of the weakest characters in the format IMHO because he is totally generic on offense, and he at the very least gets Robes of the Grandmaster . Not saying Kilik* is bad (he has a defensive ability that makes Lu Chen** sob in disappointment), but you're gonna have to come up with something interesting to kill people with him, which means he runs the risk of getting out-sped. Some characters ( Paul Phoenix* in particular) won't bat an eye when sitting across from him, and the others will make the necessary adjustments (pack more Stun and lead off with them, which is something I already do, etc.). He'll be a solid character, all things considered, but don't herald him as the second coming of Akuma::: or anything.

I'm excited to see what decks are inspired by him!

LordAggro said:

That's the worst thing - unless SCIV 2 brings something else to the table he simply will not kill.

Well, unless you run PotM but seriously guys I thought we moved away from that.

Also, I'm gonna believe Kilik is bad as soon as he sees play and starts sucking up the joint.

I think I like him (tentatively), and here's why:

He almost autowins against most throw decks, which are generally running low-speed attacks. Flooded Nile Throw cries. Ivy may also cry.

But he almost autoloses against many decks running non-throws. As others have mentioned, Bryan Fury especially is mean, running the right attack spread. Zi Mei cleans his clock. High-speed attacks (especially with Stun) tap him out.

Here's what I really don't like about him: The character is begging to have a foundation-heavy deck. He wants to spam like 6 or 7 foundations first turn. He WANTS grey wars. I think it was a bad design move to build a character that so blatantly encourages a foundation-based stall.

Not if he can't kill anyone, bro. And like all characters, you can rush his friggin' face off in the early game, especially if you lead off with a Stun attack, and let's face it, almost all of us pack 'em.

Yo Kilik, I'm really happy for ya, and imma let you finish, but Donatello had one of the best Bo Staffs of all time!!!

Do you do anything but Kanye memes these days?

ARMed_PIrate said:

Perhaps, but it'll force people who play aggro to think differently, which in turn will make them better players.

I'm already trying to think about how I will kill late game with this guy and yeah, it's a doozy but can be done. I think this guy may get me to reconsider not dropping the Double Face Kicks (base 4 speed is good) from my King deck.

It's make a difference the Character!!!

Personally I'm only thinking about this E as a secondary ability to his card draw, and using that to fuel aggro, while keeping his E to protect. If you can get the foundation base it allows you to spam out your hand of attacks and refill a little while keeping the oponent from hurting you to much. Though getting the momentum to full this awesome plan... heh.

jasco games said:

At the moment I see him as a sideboard character, brought in to tank against throw decks and wait till he can enough Gut Drills to do any decent damage with Path. And no Hatman we havne't moved away. The best damage pump in the format is still the best d amage pump in the format.

Halbard100 said:

My thoughts exactly. Sure his E is powerful, but that discard can be VERY powerful when combined with the right elements... say, Pendant of the Western Paradise? Discard 1 momentum, draw a card and retrieve a valuable card from the discard pile.

Its a one trick pony to start but thats exactly what I'm talking about. I need to get my card pool more up to date to make any good strategy predictions but that is my line of thought. Sure the E is powerful, but I think its more of a back up plan so you can viably go all out on the attack.

B-Rad said:

It was mostly a joke on how "durr hurr character doesn't have kill" when PotM exists.

And honestly we know the card exists we know what it does why can't we, y'know, move on and find other ways to kill. That way, if it gets banned, errated, or all copies in existence are erased due to a strange alignment of the planets and Satan, there's gonna be less QQ.

Looking at what Kilik has access to he doesn't have a lot of cheap stuff that helps him to build up his foundation wall. He will be spamming mostly 2 and 3 check foundations. Getting 4+ foundations out on turn one may be a problem. Next thing I see as a problem is that most of his kill conditions are either combo attacks or real high difficulity. His cheapest heavy damage attack is lion slayer off of chaos and his strongest attack is Wrath of Heaven which clocks in at an 12 damage. But if he picks water he can get speed bonuses. If he picks chaos he can get damage bonuses. The only way he can do both is to mix chaos and water to be agressive. All gives him a middle road but he is looking for all for more control then anything else. But he is doing it at the cost of building up his wall of support. From an assest side he has some interesting options. Devil Gene will give him more control. While Designer clothes and Kazuya Gloves will allow him to build momentum quickly. Paul Gi gives him more control. Reavers Axe and Valkynsverd helps pushes things through. Robes for the speed pump. And you can't forget about patriot games. The one character who is crying right now is Hilde. She has to be very careful playing Kilik and she can't speed decrease at all. The moment she does Kilik will pop her attack for less cards.

I think one thing that has had little conversation on is destroying foundations and how that rips Kilik apart. If you have access to foundation destruction and not Pummel smash then running Nightmare's support would be key. Also looking at cards like vengence from chaos would be good as well. Yes it is a card for card situation now days with card destruction. But you have to look at it like this. Kilik can either A. Focus on attacking you his turn or B. Spend his turn building so he can be defensive on your turn. I would say card destruction is the second strongest method of dealing with Kilik outside of pummel smash.

An overlooked character I think that can counter Kilik is Nina. Nina can make Kiliks checks suck and keep on sucking. She can remove cards from his hand making it harder for him to setup on his turn. Nina is a hard match up against some other more agressive decks but you have to look at it like this. If the Kilik player is going to try to be competitive they are going to play like b3 and have a few hard hitting attacks and the rest are foundations. They would plan to draw as much as they can so they can cycle through to get attacks when they need it. Nina just pitches attacks forcing Kilik to mill himself so he can eventually fight back. The more foundations he plays the faster he is going to mill himself. Only if the kilik player opperates in 68+ card range do I see him being aggressive and not as concerned about mill.

Thing is pummel smash is turning into the new tag along to negate characters. It is almost moving to being a problem because all those that can run it do run it so they can control character cards who can't be stunned out. With the power shifting away from foundations to character cards I'm finding pummel smash is forcing people to play symbols that can run without the characters. Even within this thread the complaints about the water symbol cards is that most of them are tailored for the character they reperesent. I think generic base removes hard choices and moves us back to the symbol overshadowing the character. But I digress. The power of pummel smash needs to be look at or their needs to be more abilities on characters that go off while they are commited that are just as dangerous as when they are readied.

I would rank Kilik's symbols based on ease of use first with all, second chaos, third water. Offensively I have to say Chaos is his better symbol then All. For more control I would go with All first then Water.

darklogos said:

3 symbols out of 12 can completely shut out characters on their turn.

I think that is a problem if the only real solution didn't come from Torn Hero and the other Siegfried card I cant remember at the time. Again the card is a requirment in the meta because of the fear of the strength of character cards. Tira support only lets you respond and not redirect character taping. But we can see that three symbols that can play pummel smash can do a lot to the player. As order starts to seperate itself from the shadow of fire I think we will see some stronger aggro/control decks that will be need to be dealt with. If we are back to the situation where the answer to a specfic symbol is in that symbol then we have a problem.

Well, I'm not so sure we have a problem. We've always wanted flexible utility attacks, and well, cards such as Pommel, Wheel Kick, Hilt Impact, etc, are great examples IMO. In the current format, yes, they dominate, but that's because our block is young, and yes, only Torn Hero, Journey of Repentence, and Perfect Sense only slightly quell the effect, especially when Stun-ridden chars like Paul don't necessarily care about those.

My whole thing is that cards need to become less universal. Lizardman can ONLY be ran using Low attacks. Steve Fox can ONLY be ran using Punches. That's exactly how just 'bout every card needs to be, that way the character uses their support best, and that way it limits the amount of "cookie cutter" cards that are generic and fit well into anything.

Knight Breaker never needed to exist in this game.