I'm really hoping to run into a lot of people who "used to play back in X arc, and loved it" when the game relaunches. If they do this right, it shouldn't be too hard to reignite the interest.

Yep, inasmuch as current players are insisting that they're the ones FFG needs to serve if the brand is to survive, I think the real market is 20 years worth of lapsed players and dabblers combined with new players who have never been exposed to L5R (whether they're players of other FFG games, or simply because FFG's retail footprint is*huge* and they might see it on the shelf in a mainstream book/toystore).

This pretty much describes almost everyone I know who is excited about this. We love L5R but hate the CCG model. Now we get to play again.

Yeah, it certainly includes me. So maybe some confirmation bias, there.

But still.

People want things to be canon, because if something is canon, then it's superior to things non canon, and thus, by liking canon things, you are superior to people who like non canon things.

It's a psychological mechanism that drives most of the "We are X, and you are Y, so we love x and hate y" groups. "I like heavy metal, not children's music like pop", "I like Classics, not criminal music like heavy metal", and "I love books, not kids TV".

Anything that helps to make a clear disctintion between us and them, AND can be used as argument of superiority, will be used as such and lead to creation of groups using it as central part of their identity.

I don't think that's *entirely* fair. In an interconnected media world, something being canon often does mean that it gets additional stories and sequels. So if you like, say Boba Fett, and suddenly his survival becomes not-canon, you stop getting Boba Fett stories (other than flashbacks or whatever).

In that respect, I get it. People want more of what they like, and for some, what they like might be tied more to a specific character or other element than an overall brand. It's also very often an emotional attachment. But that's fine. Stories and experiences aren't and shouldn't be purely rational things.

I also don't think it's entirely fair. Some people get way too caught up in "canon vs non-canon", but not all of them are doing so because it serves as a "tribal marker".

I'm really hoping to run into a lot of people who "used to play back in X arc, and loved it" when the game relaunches. If they do this right, it shouldn't be too hard to reignite the interest.

Yep, inasmuch as current players are insisting that they're the ones FFG needs to serve if the brand is to survive, I think the real market is 20 years worth of lapsed players and dabblers combined with new players who have never been exposed to L5R (whether they're players of other FFG games, or simply because FFG's retail footprint is*huge* and they might see it on the shelf in a mainstream book/toystore).

This pretty much describes almost everyone I know who is excited about this. We love L5R but hate the CCG model. Now we get to play again.

I run into ex-players all the time. Twenty years is a heck of a long time for people to float in and out, and there are thousands of former players who might be enticed back to the game. Hopefully we'll be able to pull some people from that boat into a playgroup in my area, and build momentum with brand new players.

I run into ex-players all the time. Twenty years is a heck of a long time for people to float in and out, and there are thousands of former players who might be enticed back to the game. Hopefully we'll be able to pull some people from that boat into a playgroup in my area, and build momentum with brand new players.

The hidden advantage of the LCG model is it's a lot friendlier to the people who were teenagers or early 20s ten or twenty years ago, but now have other responsibilities and expenses. I can imagine a lot of those people, including myself, disqualifying games purely on the basis of being collectible, entirely taking aside problems they may or may not have with the game itself.

I run into ex-players all the time. Twenty years is a heck of a long time for people to float in and out, and there are thousands of former players who might be enticed back to the game. Hopefully we'll be able to pull some people from that boat into a playgroup in my area, and build momentum with brand new players.

The hidden advantage of the LCG model is it's a lot friendlier to the people who were teenagers or early 20s ten or twenty years ago, but now have other responsibilities and expenses. I can imagine a lot of those people, including myself, disqualifying games purely on the basis of being collectible, entirely taking aside problems they may or may not have with the game itself.

I'm really hoping to run into a lot of people who "used to play back in X arc, and loved it" when the game relaunches. If they do this right, it shouldn't be too hard to reignite the interest.

Yep, inasmuch as current players are insisting that they're the ones FFG needs to serve if the brand is to survive, I think the real market is 20 years worth of lapsed players and dabblers combined with new players who have never been exposed to L5R (whether they're players of other FFG games, or simply because FFG's retail footprint is*huge* and they might see it on the shelf in a mainstream book/toystore).

Even for people who aren't insisting on the idea that everything is sacrosanct to the last detail, I think there's some fear that the baby will go out with the bathwater -- that some changes will be made just to be made, rather than because they are needed.

Even for people who aren't insisting on the idea that everything is sacrosanct to the last detail, I think there's some fear that the baby will go out with the bathwater -- that some changes will be made just to be made, rather than because they are needed.

I confess I'm idly curious about the kinds of things WotC did with the game while Steve Horvath was brand manager, and I'd be interesting in seeing someone analyze that. I really only dabbled during Jade, and the first time I really bought in was when WotC sold it back to AEG and we had the big Gold Edition reset.

But I don't think it'll be remotely predictive of what happens going forward, for a wide variety of reasons.

Personally, I am very excited about L5R becoming an LCG. I don't have the time or the money to play a CCG anymore, even if my editor in chief is pointing me towards it. I just think that FFG ditching the full history of the game would be a bad move. A better move would be moving the game forward, refocusing the factions onto what makes them iconic, and giving the storyline the room it needs to breathe by telling smaller stories that are still interactive on some level.

Why drive off the die-hards when you don't have to? Rebooting the game back to the Clan War will not bring back players who left the game, but it will certainly drive off those who stuck with it. Clan Wars was over 15 years ago, and as someone who played in it? It was not the personalities who made that arc what it was. It was the world, and it was the players. It was the Day of Thunder at GenCon 1997 and the stories that live on today from that.

Move the story forward, not backwards. Refocus the Clans. Make them iconic again. And make the game an amazing game. Do all that? And L5R will succeed, and it will bring back the people who enjoyed it back in the day, who enjoy it now, and will be the ambassadors of the game to those who will enjoy it in the future.

Even for people who aren't insisting on the idea that everything is sacrosanct to the last detail, I think there's some fear that the baby will go out with the bathwater -- that some changes will be made just to be made, rather than because they are needed.

I confess I'm idly curious about the kinds of things WotC did with the game while Steve Horvath was brand manager, and I'd be interesting in seeing someone analyze that. I really only dabbled during Jade, and the first time I really bought in was when WotC sold it back to AEG and we had the big Gold Edition reset.

But I don't think it'll be remotely predictive of what happens going forward, for a wide variety of reasons.

Gold was still under WotC, I think Diamond as well and it got with Lotus completely back into the hands of AEG.

Gold was still under WotC, I think Diamond as well and it got with Lotus completely back into the hands of AEG.

Spirit Wars, the transition between Jade and Gold, was WotC's last set. Gold Edition forward was AEG.

Even for people who aren't insisting on the idea that everything is sacrosanct to the last detail, I think there's some fear that the baby will go out with the bathwater -- that some changes will be made just to be made, rather than because they are needed.

I confess I'm idly curious about the kinds of things WotC did with the game while Steve Horvath was brand manager, and I'd be interesting in seeing someone analyze that. I really only dabbled during Jade, and the first time I really bought in was when WotC sold it back to AEG and we had the big Gold Edition reset.

But I don't think it'll be remotely predictive of what happens going forward, for a wide variety of reasons.

Gold was still under WotC, I think Diamond as well and it got with Lotus completely back into the hands of AEG.

This is incorrect. Gold edition was AEGs return to form, they even had a special promo called Welcome Home printed and packaged as a box topper for the display boxes

http://l5rshop.com/db/search.cgi?title=%5EWelcome%20Home$

Gold was still under WotC, I think Diamond as well and it got with Lotus completely back into the hands of AEG.

Spirit Wars, the transition between Jade and Gold, was WotC's last set. Gold Edition forward was AEG.

WotC had nevertheless the rights, and AEG was just under the licence back then. That is also why all the second edition RPG books back then featured the four winds sage, and of course why the novels like the clan scrolls and the also the four winds saga all appeared under WotC. Lotus / Third Edition was when Aledrac bought teh rights back.

Even for people who aren't insisting on the idea that everything is sacrosanct to the last detail, I think there's some fear that the baby will go out with the bathwater -- that some changes will be made just to be made, rather than because they are needed.

I confess I'm idly curious about the kinds of things WotC did with the game while Steve Horvath was brand manager, and I'd be interesting in seeing someone analyze that. I really only dabbled during Jade, and the first time I really bought in was when WotC sold it back to AEG and we had the big Gold Edition reset.

But I don't think it'll be remotely predictive of what happens going forward, for a wide variety of reasons.

I personally despised the game under Wizards.

They did some bizarre things with set releases that were designed to sell more product without actually making it better.

They added factions left and watered down the clan focuses.

Power creep was more like power super nova. If you didn't win in 3 turns your deck was bad. It took me a long time to adjust to realizing that a 7 or 8g personally might not just be playable, but might be strong.

I actually swore not to touch Magic again because of the bad taste it left, and I didn't.

I think some of the people nervous about the acquisition are nervous because of memories like those.

I think some of the people nervous about the acquisition are nervous because of memories like those.

Well, again, I don't necessarily think that what happens now will reflect what happened then, despite Steve Horvath being involved. I'm sure there were requirements on him from Wizards that are going to be different than those imposed on the brand by FFG.

Like I said, it's more idle curiosity.

WotC had nevertheless the rights, and AEG was just under the licence back then. That is also why all the second edition RPG books back then featured the four winds sage, and of course why the novels like the clan scrolls and the also the four winds saga all appeared under WotC. Lotus / Third Edition was when Aledrac bought teh rights back.

Difference is trivial and immaterial to my curiosity about what Steve Horvath did with the CCG while he was brand manager at Wizards. WotC neither designed nor produced Gold; it really doesn't matter to me if they got a cut.

(Also, as mentioned, I played during Gold, so I'm pretty familiar with what was done during that arc.)

WotC had nevertheless the rights, and AEG was just under the licence back then. That is also why all the second edition RPG books back then featured the four winds sage, and of course why the novels like the clan scrolls and the also the four winds saga all appeared under WotC. Lotus / Third Edition was when Aledrac bought teh rights back.

Difference is trivial and immaterial to my curiosity about what Steve Horvath did with the CCG while he was brand manager at Wizards. WotC neither designed nor produced Gold; it really doesn't matter to me if they got a cut.

(Also, as mentioned, I played during Gold, so I'm pretty familiar with what was done during that arc.)

I also played durring Gold, but I mostly started there, so I cannot tell how big the difference was to what came before, but I can say after Gold and Diamond, the true power supernova I could witness was Lotus, that is when it got insane, and nobody I ever talked to seemed to even mention the arcs before Gold when it comes to the insane power level Lotus got.

Lotus was also much more theme centric than jade. During pre gold there were plenty of busted cards, but everyone could play them relatively equally. In lotus power consolidated in a few archetypes and just dropped trow on everything else. If your clan didn't have significant access to those you were out of luck.

WotC had nevertheless the rights, and AEG was just under the licence back then. That is also why all the second edition RPG books back then featured the four winds sage, and of course why the novels like the clan scrolls and the also the four winds saga all appeared under WotC. Lotus / Third Edition was when Aledrac bought teh rights back.

Difference is trivial and immaterial to my curiosity about what Steve Horvath did with the CCG while he was brand manager at Wizards. WotC neither designed nor produced Gold; it really doesn't matter to me if they got a cut.

(Also, as mentioned, I played during Gold, so I'm pretty familiar with what was done during that arc.)

I also played durring Gold, but I mostly started there, so I cannot tell how big the difference was to what came before, but I can say after Gold and Diamond, the true power supernova I could witness was Lotus, that is when it got insane, and nobody I ever talked to seemed to even mention the arcs before Gold when it comes to the insane power level Lotus got.

Lotus was, indeed, redonkulous. There were other sets and other cards that were ridiculously powerful -- corrupt gold schemes, anyone? -- but those felt more like they were coming in an age of CCG design where people didn't really know what balance was or how to make it. By Lotus, people should have known better.

WotC had nevertheless the rights, and AEG was just under the licence back then. That is also why all the second edition RPG books back then featured the four winds sage, and of course why the novels like the clan scrolls and the also the four winds saga all appeared under WotC. Lotus / Third Edition was when Aledrac bought teh rights back.

Difference is trivial and immaterial to my curiosity about what Steve Horvath did with the CCG while he was brand manager at Wizards. WotC neither designed nor produced Gold; it really doesn't matter to me if they got a cut.

(Also, as mentioned, I played during Gold, so I'm pretty familiar with what was done during that arc.)

I also played durring Gold, but I mostly started there, so I cannot tell how big the difference was to what came before, but I can say after Gold and Diamond, the true power supernova I could witness was Lotus, that is when it got insane, and nobody I ever talked to seemed to even mention the arcs before Gold when it comes to the insane power level Lotus got.

I played both before Gold and in Lotus. Lotus was insane, with silly deck types, but it does not compare.

There was a 3 turn enlightenment deck. The Spirit stronghold was a monstrosity, that is banned in every format where it would otherwise still be legal.

I played a deck they could wipe the board with blanket chi death on about turn five or six. And it was way too slow to win with.

Personalities that cost more than 6 were too expensive for most clans to play. Dishonor players good end of the game on turn 1, all they had to do was draw into Breach of Etiquette. There was no coming back for most people.

Lotus was dumb, but the end of Jade was worse.

I didn't play , but even I heard of the infamous "Breach of etiquette".

*scrolls up and rereads*

Oh, rpg, yes. Nevermind I am on board. I haven't played the RPG yet because of that. Haha, So different between the ccg and rpg that historic sense.

Actually a group of friends and I are starting up the rpg. But none of us have ran a game in this setting, though several of us are seasoned RPG players. Any tips or guidelines or resources on how to start better?

The best advice I can give from personal experience is to narrow down your field to an almost laser-like focus before you begin; I know, basic rpg methods, but all vitally important for cutting to the bone here. By which I mean, making certain everyone is on board with:

- What is your timeframe? And be as specific as possible; this eliminates as much of the twenty decades of material as possible, which may sound terrible but when one is staring down the multitude of options and the mountain of source material, believe me, one wants a direction!

-> If it is going to be a non-canon timeframe or campaign framework, pin that down before anything else. Make sure everyone knows what and who are available; make sure everyone is on board with the choices.

- Similarly, where is the campaign being set (at least initially)? Urban/rural? And where in Rokugan/the Colonies, if applicable? (you have no idea how desperately I want the Atlas. geographical placement in Rokugan is hellish *tiny fist shake*)

- By the love of all, narrow down Clan/faction choices if one can manage it. An Emerald Magistrate (or what have you) game can be interesting, but it does nothing for helping floundering players (or GMs) get campaigns off the ground.

- Avoid any and all extra material (from the Books of [Elements], etc) unless you absolutely plan to make use of it right then and there. try not to put the entire mountain of extra material on the table immediately.

- Avoid as many canon characters as possible. The campaign is about the player's characters.

- if applicable, don't have Canon Events [tm] hanging over your player's heads. Let the campaign flow where it will, do not force the canon plot onto it.

Ironically, perhaps, the best results I've seen have been with new prospective players who are interested in playing in Rokugan but are not interested in the details of the backstory, and never touch the details of the backstory. Without all those years of story and material pressing down as What Is And Is Proper, with the established cast of Heroes And Villains, it all plays out as much more freeing.

Really, it comes down to, for me: I would like to be able to see that freedom straight 'out of the box' again. The AEG material would be, and is, already out there for folks to pick up and add back in if they feel like it.

Create a different thread for this "setting up an RPG campaign" stuff. Not because I'm playing Moderator Magistrate, but because I want to participate in this discussion and I think it deserves it's own thread .

Create a different thread for this "setting up an RPG campaign" stuff. Not because I'm playing Moderator Magistrate, but because I want to participate in this discussion and I think it deserves it's own thread .

Sadly the forums here have no board for the L5R RPG stuff... but I guess FFG don't want us to talk for years about 4th edition while they decide how to approach the L5R RPG.

I would have loved to play during Lotus Edition's hay day just for how ridiculous it was.

I *think* it's okay to post RPG threads in this forum? One of things that help keep the hype (and in turn, keep the community glued together) are often RPG talks, because there is always someone playing a game, looking for ideas, or wanting to share his homebrew.