I would prefer the Doomtown approach. Everything in the previous edition still happened, there was simply a time jump that took place, which gave time for the new factions to be introduced and for the town to start rebuilding.

Poor use of the 20 years worth of storyline they just paid for.

Because, ultimately, that's the heart of the Rokugan setting. Not the RPG splat book, not the general idea of a world split into clans. The twenty years of story that fleshed out those clans and gave them their iconic characters and moments.

L5R has had time jumps before, most recently between Celestial and Emperor. AEG were already planning for one to happen some time during Onyx.

I think the only kind of reboot I would be interested in would be Iweko on the throne and she is less active more recluse and actually spend her days praying and not doing politics at all... Something like that.

Or a complete re-imagining where the Spider Clan exists since the dawn of the empire for example.

Or the Togashi Dynasty...

But going back to Clan Wars? No thanks.

Actually I would like to see Onyx or at least FFG variant of Onyx.

IMO they should keep the current storyline. Though I like the ''good old days'' rebooting feels like a slap on the face for 20 years of development, story picks and prizes , etc.

And of course the current storyline of onyx is new and still undefined. Kanpeki takes the throne but after that there's nothing written so FFG can actually start from there pretty easily.

I would prefer the Doomtown approach. Everything in the previous edition still happened, there was simply a time jump that took place, which gave time for the new factions to be introduced and for the town to start rebuilding.

Poor use of the 20 years worth of storyline they just paid for.

Because, ultimately, that's the heart of the Rokugan setting. Not the RPG splat book, not the general idea of a world split into clans. The twenty years of story that fleshed out those clans and gave them their iconic characters and moments.

L5R has had time jumps before, most recently between Celestial and Emperor. AEG were already planning for one to happen some time during Onyx.

Time jumps for an established game are one things.

A whole new game in the same setting by a wholly different company is another thing entirely.

And I didn't suggest making the whole game timeline-agnostic ; only the base set. Start with the personalities and icons that best depict each clan, regardless of where they come from in the storyline. Then build it up with dynasty pack or whatever you call them that are actually relevant to the current storyline and expand on what is happening now.If and when new clans get added, likewise start them up with a pack introducing the most iconic and representative elements of the clan, regardless of timeline, then follow it up with more story-relevant material.

I understand that people care about twenty years of community driven story. I was part of that for the vast majority of it. But I agree that the game shouldn't be held hostage because of story reasons, and in my opinion the current storyline reeks of fan fiction and reads like a movie with too many sequels.

What I'm proposing is going back to a simpler time, Lord Moon and Lady Sun had Nine Children, Seven of them founded the Clans, one was made Emperor and one was lost to jigoku, and start from there. Explaining why the imperial dynasty has changed 3 times is extra baggage for new players, not to mention the mental gymnastics the story team must have made to explain why the sun and the moon were changed twice.

My reasons are more for simplicity and less because of nostalgia, because I'm also of the opinion that FFG needs newer players and if "killing their sweethearts" is something they need to do in order for that to happen then I'm all for it (revamp the mechanics, adjust the story, alienate current players).

I realize that the establish player base is a drop in the bucket to a company like FFG and I need to be ok with the possibility that they will happily lose 50% of the old players if it means they'll get a game that will make up the loss tenfold with new blood.

What I'm proposing is going back to a simpler time, Lord Moon and Lady Sun had Nine Children, Seven of them founded the Clans, one was made Emperor and one was lost to jigoku, and start from there. Explaining why the imperial dynasty has changed 3 times is extra baggage for new players, not to mention the mental gymnastics the story team must have made to explain why the sun and the moon were changed twice.

...

I realize that the establish player base is a drop in the bucket to a company like FFG and I need to be ok with the possibility that they will happily lose 50% of the old players if it means they'll get a game that will make up the loss tenfold with new blood.

I don't think you necessarily need to go back to get to a simpler time.

I'm not sure what the whole deal is with Onyx and Spider rule and whatever, because I haven't followed it. But it could easily be disposed with by a simple intro:

"The Emerald Empire, once overtaken by shadow, has emerged from its dark age. 1,000 years of peace have passed under the light of Amaterasu (or whoever it is now). But that's some boring ****, so here come the clans to fight for the throne again."

...and go. That way, it's not a reboot. It's just that all the baggage becomes ancient history. As it should, IMO.

I agree with you about the importance of new players over old. The game rather seemed to be waning, and from what I gather, Ivory wasn't the turnaround people were hoping. FFG's user base is huge, and if they're going to make the game work, that's the market they need to tap, as well as other new players who may not be FFG fans, but for whom L5R was simply under the radar when it was at AEG. FFG has marketing muscle AEG can't touch.

One option might be to have Kanpeki just fail off-screen, but not before toppling the Iweko dynasty, then start the game off with the recently victorious Great Clans trying to determine who should take the throne now. No need to go into all the details about previous dynasties or who Seiken and Shibatsu are, and it starts to game off with a focus on inter-Clan conflict (which to me at least should be the focus of the game) instead of another Big Scary Monster Thing, all without an actual reboot.

I realize that the establish player base is a drop in the bucket to a company like FFG and I need to be ok with the possibility that they will happily lose 50% of the old players if it means they'll get a game that will make up the loss tenfold with new blood.

I really, REALLY hate doing this because I don't want to start this argument, but...

Look at what happened when WotC went to 4th Edition D&D. That is a wound that still hasn't healed, and resulted in them being overtaken as a business by Paizo and Pathfinder. Burning an established player base in the attempt to attract new blood could go very very poorly. Why take that risk if you do not have to?

The current storyline does not need 1000 years of peace to be what L5R is about. Nor does it need to be tossed out the window and rebooted back to the beginning. FFG should take the opportunity to re-establish the base Rokugan, reflecting the history the players have built and moving the game forward in a better, stronger direction.

Move the story forward. Not backwards.

I realize that the establish player base is a drop in the bucket to a company like FFG and I need to be ok with the possibility that they will happily lose 50% of the old players if it means they'll get a game that will make up the loss tenfold with new blood.

I really, REALLY hate doing this because I don't want to start this argument, but...

Look at what happened when WotC went to 4th Edition D&D. That is a wound that still hasn't healed, and resulted in them being overtaken as a business by Paizo and Pathfinder. Burning an established player base in the attempt to attract new blood could go very very poorly. Why take that risk if you do not have to?

The current storyline does not need 1000 years of peace to be what L5R is about. Nor does it need to be tossed out the window and rebooted back to the beginning. FFG should take the opportunity to re-establish the base Rokugan, reflecting the history the players have built and moving the game forward in a better, stronger direction.

Move the story forward. Not backwards.

I believe the point being made was that it needs to shed baggage. And frankly, for me as an outsider (former player), the last 20 years of story is basically the equivalent of an improv troop (the story team) reacting to an audience (the players). Except sometimes the audience had to go out in the parking lot to fight to decide who got to shout the next weird-ass thing that had to be improv'd. Sometimes it resulted in genius, but mostly it fell flat.

I'd rather the new stewards not be beholden to that.

I don't think a storyline reset would be a good idea.

However, opening the game with a timeline-agnostic base set that reflects the most notable personalities of the setting, regardless of when or where they lived, would be a pretty reasonable move. That would give the new game a much more solid base to go from and tell its own stories, and allow FFG to draw on the full richness of the setting they bought, rather than being stuck with most of the most notable characters of that setting being unusable in the game.

For those who want "era-specific" decks or events or whatever, maybe each card could have an "era tag" in the form of a little symbol or keyword.

Just a thought.

Look at what happened when WotC went to 4th Edition D&D. That is a wound that still hasn't healed, and resulted in them being overtaken as a business by Paizo and Pathfinder. Burning an established player base in the attempt to attract new blood could go very very poorly. Why take that risk if you do not have to?

I won't pretend to be up on the relative numbers of WotC vs. Paizo, but given that no one will be producing a competing product, this is rather a different situation. I would watch to see how well Game of Thrones 2.0 does vs. 1.0 once it hits. That would be much more similar to this situation (except without the hiatus).

Even with all the mixed feelings across the playerbase regading the existing story and history, I just can't see ditching it.

At most, the Onyx / Jiguko-merge storyline might get a full rework with the changeover...

WotC has Hasbro money and MtG money, and they did the move when the RPG industry was at an old time low, they could afford to take the risk because not doing it ment keeping the stagnant status quo.

FFG is in a similar boat, they can either continue what AEG was doing and maintain the status quo of a game that by all admissions is in decline. Or they can take a big risk with it and start fresh (doing so will not bankrupt them).

To a fan of L5R, what you are proposing is effectively the equivalent of making the Game of Thrones LCG pick up at the first novel, Bran doesn't get thrown from the window, Ned Stark doesn't die, and maybe this time LIttlefinger gets the girl and lives happily ever after.

The history of L5R is a massive, ugly beast, forged over 20 years of collective storytelling. Some of it is good. Some of it is bad. Some of it is crazy. But removing that 20 years of storytelling to update your game is effectively the same as saying you are creating a game about the Song of Ice and Fire, setting it in Westeros, then completely ignoring the events of the novels. Might it be a good game? Sure, but every fan of the novel series who picks up the game will feel lied to.

Now imagine being GRRM and picking up that game.

Because that is how most L5R players would feel.

We helped build this world. If FFG wants to get those people to be the ambassadors of the game, rather than people who go out of their way to STOP people from playing their game (because they would), they will need to respect that.

Now imagine being GRRM and picking up that game.

Because that is how most L5R players would feel.

May I suggest, then, that "most L5R players," if they consider themselves the equivalent to a man who single handedly created a massive, bestselling fantasy series, are overestimating their importance. It's not for nothing I compared them to the audience an improv show. I would venture the same regarding their ability to stop people from playing.

The old fans got their stories. 20 years worth. I'm sorry that these last few months of story choices may wind up for naught, but if you have a beef in that department, it's with AEG. FFG needs to do the best thing for the game's future, and that means shedding baggage in *many* areas (design, story, and etc.). Honestly, the only reason I'm here is because of the fresh start, and I would suggest that there are many more players than you think in my position, and many fewer than you think who want to see everything preserved. And both of those crowds are likely dwarfed by the untapped market FFG is eyeing, as well as their own player base.

Also, I believe that the Game of Thrones LCG generally operates in a non-linear fashion compared to the books, but I could be wrong.

So asuming the plot goes forward and we keep the colonies. What are the chances of the colonies doing what all colonies do and strive for independance? Will we (eventually) see a Rokugan vs the Colonies war?

I'd love a jump back in time to the days when the Kami walked the earth. I think the worse thing FFG can do is pick up the story where AEG left it off but with a re-designed game under a new format and new organized play structure.

May I suggest, then, that "most L5R players," if they consider themselves the equivalent to a man who single handedly created a massive, bestselling fantasy series, are overestimating their importance. It's not for nothing I compared them to the audience an improv show. I would venture the same regarding their ability to stop people from playing.

The old fans got their stories. 20 years worth. I'm sorry that these last few months of story choices may wind up for naught, but if you have a beef in that department, it's with AEG. FFG needs to do the best thing for the game's future, and that means shedding baggage in *many* areas (design, story, and etc.). Honestly, the only reason I'm here is because of the fresh start, and I would suggest that there are many more players than you think in my position,

Hmm I think you undertmistate how much work it is to win an actual tournement. I mean the players who dedicated themself to go and win the story prize actually spend the time of a fulltime job to prepare for the event. MOnth of testing and tuning and evoling your won gameplana n metagame knowlegde are required to do so and therefore I don´t think they undermistate their importance because hey they created a story wiht their chocie so this is actually not so different from writing a book.

We need a new start but do we need a completely new fiction as base of the game? My answer to this is no. The fiction excluding some things like the desotroyer war was really cool and I would not like to reboot it ore even ignore it.

As I allready said I believe the Onyx Empire provides a good oportunity for a good restart all by it self.

So what I like to see is a fresh start in terms of mechanics and rules but not so much in terms of the story cause it was a hard time of work and there were some great results in it. Evalidating all of this not onyl would spit on the hard work of the players who made this happen but also on the whole player base who get tricked by canon which actually never was canon and if you read the AEG forum you can see how this worked out in a very smal scale when i became clear that the taint never left.

Hmm I think you undertmistate how much work it is to win an actual tournement. I mean the players who dedicated themself to go and win the story prize actually spend the time of a fulltime job to prepare for the event. MOnth of testing and tuning and evoling your won gameplana n metagame knowlegde are required to do so and therefore I don´t think they undermistate their importance because hey they created a story wiht their chocie so this is actually not so different from writing a book.

1) Degree of difficulty doesn't equal significance. It's a game. They filled in a mad-lib with their tournament victory. I played a bunch of AEG games in their heyday, and I know the feeling, but come on.

2) I write for a living. I play cards as a hobby, and generally play them pretty well. There's no doubt in my mind which one is more demanding.

While I agree that some of 20 Years Of L5R has bad fanfiction quality, I find idea of purging this fanfiction in order to return to start of the story kind of funny. Because at this point, you are literally writing fanfiction to original Day of Thunder, and forcing your writers to write characters of other people instead of their own, and to constantly live in the shadow of original Day of Thunder.

Fresh start and FFGs Very Own Story is desperately needed, but you don't need to antagonize and disrespect your predecessors to do that. Just acknowledge that ancient history is ancient history, make a wink and a nudge to it from time to time, and proceed with your own story and your own characters. Let Kachiko, Kisada and rest of the gang rest, and don't reanimate them into fanfiction zombies; and give your writers chance to write THEIR OWN characters and THEIR OWN stories.

I don´t want to downgrade your work as a writer. What I want is that you downgrade the work of a serious tournement player. And for some people it is very sinificant cause it is the world they like and the setting so all they ever wanted is to be a meaningful part of it and infleunece it. Achieving this goal is very significant cause it makes them happy and makes them feel good. Taking this away and telling them it never even mattered cause all these years where a bad dream or something like this is a big hit and would invalidate their work.

And one thing I can say is that at least in my exp as a Magic and L5r player is that preparing for a tournement cna be very demanding. I mean I can remember things like a 40 hour week of pure testing where we did this 8 hours and 5 days a week to prepare for a competition and this is not counting theorizing, curve research and learning the decks and meta cards to be able to predict the opponents turns before he is taking them.

So pls don´t look down on people dedicated to card games as we don´t look down on people whcih are dedicated to writers. Both are demanding and both have a right that people respect their work and achievments and no one would like

if people take this away.

I'm having a really hard time understanding why people are thinking that a reboot of the game is the same thing as a rehash of the game's history .

Seriously. The entire point of rebooting the franchise is to do things differently, to not make the same mistakes, to not fall on the same pitfalls. To me, a reboot is the very best thing FFG could do, because they could then change all the bad decisions, bad storylines while still using the most iconic characters in the history of Rokugan. Everybody remembers Shoju, Kisada, Toturi, they where memorable. The stories they figured in might have been terrible at certain points (Kisada pussing-out and being named a fortune instead of becoming "Rokugan's Darth Vader", for example), but everybody remembers them.

But sure, dump them all as well, if it seems necessary. If that's the price to pay to never have a Daigotsu to begin with, I'm all for it.

I don´t want to downgrade your work as a writer. What I want is that you downgrade the work of a serious tournement player. And for some people it is very sinificant cause it is the world they like and the setting so all they ever wanted is to be a meaningful part of it and infleunece it. Achieving this goal is very significant cause it makes them happy and makes them feel good. Taking this away and telling them it never even mattered cause all these years where a bad dream or something like this is a big hit and would invalidate their work.

I'm not saying it never mattered. I'm saying it doesn't matter now, or to the story going forward.

Just like some of my work goes out of print. But I still have copies on my shelf, and I'm still proud of that work.

The old stories aren't disappearing (I mean, assuming they didn't vanish with the AEG forums?). They're still there to be read and enjoyed by anyone who cares to read them. I'm not even one of the ones suggesting they be wiped from continuity.

I'm suggesting their impact going forward be minimized, so FFG can operate from as clean a slate as possible.

If you want the old stories to matter, they can. Go read them. Don't require others to do the same to get full enjoyment out of what should be a new game.

Not sure it matters exactly how much work a tournament win did or did not involve. If a big part of the selling point of your game is "you make the story," then you are trying for player ownership of that story. Regardless of whether an individual tournament win, or all tournament wins taken together, are or are not the equivalent of writing a novel doesn't matter - it only matters that you're trying to instill that sense of ownership. So if you're aiming for that (which L5R traditionally has, and which IMHO will continue in some form under FFG, although probably to a significantly lesser extent), then you want to - to the extent practical - treat those influences with some level of respect.

Not sure it matters exactly how much work a tournament win did or did not involve. If a big part of the selling point of your game is "you make the story," then you are trying for player ownership of that story. Regardless of whether an individual tournament win, or all tournament wins taken together, are or are not the equivalent of writing a novel doesn't matter - it only matters that you're trying to instill that sense of ownership. So if you're aiming for that (which L5R traditionally has, and which IMHO will continue in some form under FFG, although probably to a significantly lesser extent), then you want to - to the extent practical - treat those influences with some level of respect.

That respect was paid (again, with the exception of the recent results; talk to AEG).

The stories that were won exist. They aren't (I assume) being erased.

What i'm suggesting isn't the Abrams reboot of Trek. It's The Next Generation. You could still watch TOS in reruns, but TOS characters appeared what...twice? In over 200 episodes.