And I think you can have that with or without a questionable person on the throne, actually look at the history of L5R, the Clan War which is so beloved by many that they want to reset the satting to that time basically had the same premise, a questionable emperor. So, L5R can tottally work that way. They don't have to frame it as a good vs evil conflict

The Clan War is very different from what I understand Onyx Edition was going to be. I mean, maybe I have something wrong, but the Clan War was basically the Crab rebelling, everyone else going "Whatsa matta for you, Crab?", and the Emperor's corruption being revealed much later. But the story assumption going in is that the emperor is the true light of heaven, never wrong, spoke ex cathedra, and all that. That he's been corrupted (or possessed or whatever the details were) was a big reveal, right?

By contrast, I understand Onyx to be much more, 1000 years of darkness, Emperor explicitly evil and everyone pretty much knows it, etc. Much more like Star Wars, actually, where even a cursory glance at the Empire makes one go, "Yep, bad guys." Right?

Those are two very different things.

With the scorpion coup it was early on clear that there is something wrong with the imperial bloodline. And it have not just been the Crab that rebelled, almost every clan felt free to ignore the emperor, since he was weak and nobody trusted Kachiko who spoke most of the time for him. It basically was exactly what Onyx could be, a nation in which the clans fight with each other and nobody really cares what is happing in the capitol. So, I want that weak and ignored emperor, who sits on the throne but has no power and the clans do their own business without involving the imperials much. That could even leave the Spider as playeable faction, who try to get more control over the land they officially already should have. That is inherently a rich and living setting with a balance that is interesting, not so weak sauce we get with all those benevolent emperors who just make idiotic decisions (Sorry, but AEG had at least an excuse for Toturi with the lying darkness, but Nazeru and Iweko have just been terrible on the throne).

And I think you can have that with or without a questionable person on the throne, actually look at the history of L5R, the Clan War which is so beloved by many that they want to reset the satting to that time basically had the same premise, a questionable emperor. So, L5R can tottally work that way. They don't have to frame it as a good vs evil conflict

The Clan War is very different from what I understand Onyx Edition was going to be. I mean, maybe I have something wrong, but the Clan War was basically the Crab rebelling, everyone else going "Whatsa matta for you, Crab?", and the Emperor's corruption being revealed much later. But the story assumption going in is that the emperor is the true light of heaven, never wrong, spoke ex cathedra, and all that. That he's been corrupted (or possessed or whatever the details were) was a big reveal, right?

By contrast, I understand Onyx to be much more, 1000 years of darkness, Emperor explicitly evil and everyone pretty much knows it, etc. Much more like Star Wars, actually, where even a cursory glance at the Empire makes one go, "Yep, bad guys." Right?

Those are two very different things.

With the scorpion coup it was early on clear that there is something wrong with the imperial bloodline. And it have not just been the Crab that rebelled, almost every clan felt free to ignore the emperor, since he was weak and nobody trusted Kachiko who spoke most of the time for him. It basically was exactly what Onyx could be, a nation in which the clans fight with each other and nobody really cares what is happing in the capitol. So, I want that weak and ignored emperor, who sits on the throne but has no power and the clans do their own business without involving the imperials much. That could even leave the Spider as playeable faction, who try to get more control over the land they officially already should have. That is inherently a rich and living setting with a balance that is interesting, not so weak sauce we get with all those benevolent emperors who just make idiotic decisions (Sorry, but AEG had at least an excuse for Toturi with the lying darkness, but Nazeru and Iweko have just been terrible on the throne).

It's hard to have a strong / effective / good Emperor AND a Rokugan with heavy interclan conflict.

big difference between Onyx and Clan Wars is "That Emperor was a chump who was controlled by a scheming woman so we all ignore him and proceed with our schemes and power grab because there is noone to punish us for it" and Onyx would be "our Emperor eats babies and is currently pondering if Baby Diet should be a national policy, also demons, demons are running the bureaucracy

scrap that, this last thing is an improvement actually."

Onyx Empire is little too bit hardcore.

big difference between Onyx and Clan Wars is "That Emperor was a chump who was controlled by a scheming woman so we all ignore him and proceed with our schemes and power grab because there is noone to punish us for it" and Onyx would be "our Emperor eats babies and is currently pondering if Baby Diet should be a national policy, also demons, demons are running the bureaucracy

scrap that, this last thing is an improvement actually."

Onyx Empire is little too bit hardcore.

Onyx Empire would -- unless mutliple Clans are forced to hold the idiot ball -- eliminate most of the inter-clan conflict, as all of Rokugan united to drive out the forces of Jigoku.

big difference between Onyx and Clan Wars is "That Emperor was a chump who was controlled by a scheming woman so we all ignore him and proceed with our schemes and power grab because there is noone to punish us for it" and Onyx would be "our Emperor eats babies and is currently pondering if Baby Diet should be a national policy, also demons, demons are running the bureaucracy

scrap that, this last thing is an improvement actually."

Onyx Empire is little too bit hardcore.

Onyx Empire would -- unless mutliple Clans are forced to hold the idiot ball -- eliminate most of the inter-clan conflict, as all of Rokugan united to drive out the forces of Jigoku.

Actually not really.. The Dragon and the Unicorn have close ties with the Spider, perhaps they even like them... The Crab and Lion could and would probably take issue.

Leaving Crane, Scorpion, Mantis and Phoenix.

I am not sure if the Mantis would stand up for Iweko II, they were the first once to accept the Spider and they are pretty pragmatic people. I mean what is in for them protecting the emperor.

Crane and Scorpions acted against the Otom, the main imperial political force. It is not a stretch that they would decide to at least stay silent when Kanpeki marches in. Especially Nitoshi is a wild card when it comes to taking action.

And the Phoenix are pacifist and like to talk things out.

Also the edition would have come with to upgrades for the Spider:

1. Jigoku got stronger.

2. They are basically all veterans at this point. They were Iweko's Conqueror after all.

3. They have the Chuda back and therefore access to Summon Oni and Raise Undead.

Also if Kanpeki manages to kill Seikan fast and have Susumu Shibatsu swear fealty to him as Susumu daimyo, the only one left with a claim to a throne would be Miaka, which probably a Scorpion by now ...

and Kanpeki would not be the first tainted emperor who would have the idea to marry a beautiful Scorpion widow.

The point is as long as Kanpeki is not absolutely terrible as an emperor, I can see that many clans simply mind their own business and those who try to object than face a great silent opposition.

Nobody would stand up for Kanpeki, but nobody really wants to go against him... I mean you could get tainted, you know...

The probably many people have connections to the Spider, these are not simply the guys who are lost to the taint anymore.

Perhaps some of them are friends family, people you had sake with in the colonies.

Why? Look at Star wars, that is basically how people got introduced to that setting almost fourty years ago. So, what is the issue?

The good vs. evil dichotomy and fighting against the dark side is one of the core elements of the setting, whatever their relevant positions of power. It's entirely oriented around light vs. dark, whether Jedi vs. Sith or Rebellion/Republic vs. Empire.

L5R is much less concerned with good and evil as core conflict, which is how the game accommodates the competing interests of 7/8/9/whatever great clans.

Agreed. My favorite moments in L5R happen when every clan is doing the right thing. Except that they each have a different perspective of what the right thing is or how to do it.

big difference between Onyx and Clan Wars is "That Emperor was a chump who was controlled by a scheming woman so we all ignore him and proceed with our schemes and power grab because there is noone to punish us for it" and Onyx would be "our Emperor eats babies and is currently pondering if Baby Diet should be a national policy, also demons, demons are running the bureaucracy

scrap that, this last thing is an improvement actually."

Onyx Empire is little too bit hardcore.

Onyx Empire would -- unless mutliple Clans are forced to hold the idiot ball -- eliminate most of the inter-clan conflict, as all of Rokugan united to drive out the forces of Jigoku.

Actually not really.. The Dragon and the Unicorn have close ties with the Spider, perhaps they even like them... The Crab and Lion could and would probably take issue.

Leaving Crane, Scorpion, Mantis and Phoenix.

I am not sure if the Mantis would stand up for Iweko II, they were the first once to accept the Spider and they are pretty pragmatic people. I mean what is in for them protecting the emperor.

Crane and Scorpions acted against the Otom, the main imperial political force. It is not a stretch that they would decide to at least stay silent when Kanpeki marches in. Especially Nitoshi is a wild card when it comes to taking action.

And the Phoenix are pacifist and like to talk things out.

Also the edition would have come with to upgrades for the Spider:

1. Jigoku got stronger.

2. They are basically all veterans at this point. They were Iweko's Conqueror after all.

3. They have the Chuda back and therefore access to Summon Oni and Raise Undead.

Also if Kanpeki manages to kill Seikan fast and have Susumu Shibatsu swear fealty to him as Susumu daimyo, the only one left with a claim to a throne would be Miaka, which probably a Scorpion by now ...

and Kanpeki would not be the first tainted emperor who would have the idea to marry a beautiful Scorpion widow.

The point is as long as Kanpeki is not absolutely terrible as an emperor, I can see that many clans simply mind their own business and those who try to object than face a great silent opposition.

Nobody would stand up for Kanpeki, but nobody really wants to go against him... I mean you could get tainted, you know...

The probably many people have connections to the Spider, these are not simply the guys who are lost to the taint anymore.

Perhaps some of them are friends family, people you had sake with in the colonies.

"Liking the Spider", for most of the Rokugani, is being forced to hold the idiot ball.

I would say we can agree to disagree here.

However even if I go with nobody likes the Spider... Doesn't mean they will come and help Iweko II.

It is like that bully in school. You don't like him, but why would you step up and help the nerd being robbed at school, he might come after you.

Rokugan just had a very long period of peace, because Iweko I told them that they can't have war anymore.

Is this edict still in place? I mean could they go after Kanpeki? Is that allowed or would that not be faithful to the word of the emperor?

Yes he just killed the Emperor, but that would mean war with the Spider which we are not allowed to have... Hmmm.

The problem with the argument of "There are Great Clans who would support Kanpeki" is that it has a lot of evidence against it, specifically shown through the Story Path Votes. Even inside the Spider Clan, 25% voted not to back Kanpeki. No other faction chose to support Kanpeki. The closest was the Scorpion, who tied on "Throw down against the Spider" and "Half of us throw down against the Spider, and the other half play nice with the Spider to go after the Kolat". The player base of ever other faction with a choice to directly attack the Spider chose it. The Phoenix even created their own Story Path just to fight us, and the Dragon Clan tried HARD to modify one of their paths to be able fighting the Spider.

It was clear that no Clan majority wanted to side with the Onyx Empire, except the Spider Clan players. So, why go with the Onyx Empire? It's easier if Seiken is simply shown to be unsuited to lead an empire, dismantles the bureaucracy (and the Legions, and the Emerald magistrature, you know, the guys who collect the Imperial taxes), and hands all those duties over to the Great Clans. There have not been limits on Clan armies since the Clan Wars. Give all the Samurai in Rokugan swords, and autonomy? And they will war among themselves. And by dismantling the bureaucracy and disempowering the Otomo, Seiken will be unable to subtly keep them in check. Which means direct proclamations, which makes him seem a tyrant, who has come in contact with P'an Ku, the mad dragon. Stop the Scorpion or Crane at the wrong time? And that will spread.

That analogy doesn't compare. Most schoolyard bullies' families/group haven't spent centuries murdering, etortiting, eating, and corrupting the very essence of everyone you've ever met in your entire life. This isn't someone who took your milk money. This is the Deadites here to swallow your soul.

The problem with the argument of "There are Great Clans who would support Kanpeki" is that it has a lot of evidence against it, specifically shown through the Story Path Votes. Even inside the Spider Clan, 25% voted not to back Kanpeki. No other faction chose to support Kanpeki. The closest was the Scorpion, who tied on "Throw down against the Spider" and "Half of us throw down against the Spider, and the other half play nice with the Spider to go after the Kolat". The player base of ever other faction with a choice to directly attack the Spider chose it. The Phoenix even created their own Story Path just to fight us, and the Dragon Clan tried HARD to modify one of their paths to be able fighting the Spider.

It was clear that no Clan majority wanted to side with the Onyx Empire, except the Spider Clan players. So, why go with the Onyx Empire? It's easier if Seiken is simply shown to be unsuited to lead an empire, dismantles the bureaucracy (and the Legions, and the Emerald magistrature, you know, the guys who collect the Imperial taxes), and hands all those duties over to the Great Clans. There have not been limits on Clan armies since the Clan Wars. Give all the Samurai in Rokugan swords, and autonomy? And they will war among themselves. And by dismantling the bureaucracy and disempowering the Otomo, Seiken will be unable to subtly keep them in check. Which means direct proclamations, which makes him seem a tyrant, who has come in contact with P'an Ku, the mad dragon. Stop the Scorpion or Crane at the wrong time? And that will spread.

Yes. Yes. and Yes. Hire this guy.

Check the votes on the clan paths. Almost every single path choice was "Help Kanpeki and get OP toys, we totally promise!" or "Oppose him, and we'll kill off all your favorite characters, we swear this time!" I don't think a single clan voted the first way. Whatever path the story takes it should come from clans having diametrically opposed philosophies that end up blinding them to whatever other thing would be better for the Empire as a whole.

I'd love a story pathline where the Spider do something that is objectively best for the Empire, but because they are who they are they get met with skepticism or hostility. When Spider were first introduced it looked they were trying to play this role. They killed bandits attacking villages, cleaned up plagued areas (that they probably caused), and generally playing Robin Hood to the little people.

Well, even more reason not to make them angry and notice you...

I think the point I am making that from a story perspective it is not as unthinkable as many people claim.

What the player base is thinking is a completely different can of worms.

Since it was an imperial assemble vote I would argue that it was hardly representative, but it is the best data we have.

So let's say that many probably the majority of players are opposed to that idea.

I for one am not a Spider player and liked the idea of Onyx as you can tell.

However I am perfectly fine with an incompetent Iweko II.

He basically proven that he can't into politics after he decided to piss of the son of the devil and then proceeded to destroy his own political power.

In the end we need a situation where the clans have many reasons to kick each other

If it is a helpless emperor one a meaningless throne or a tyrant that you can openly oppose without getting funny looks, I don't care so much...

As long as they keep a halfway consistent transition from the current story to the LCG story I am all in.

It could be enough if the Rokugan's samurais act more as real samurais during the sengoku jidai: they were all bastards AND more adventurous!

I'd like less stereotyped clans, and gaijin: the colonies are empty! There are few survivors, it would be more interesting a cultures clash to me.

I'm for a total reboot.

Instead, the card game needs only good rules.

Sorry form my bad english.

There is one good thing about possible Onyx that I think noone pointed out. By having clear Rebel Alliance / Evil Empire split, you can introduce "Rebel side of the Clan" and "Empire side of the Clan". This way, you can have protagonist of each Clan (including Spider who didn't follow Kanpeki) fighting against antagonists of each Clan. What does this mean?

It means that when your Scorpion Protagonist kick Lion Antagonist butt, Lion players wont take it personally, and will actually cheer on. One of L5R Story problems was that it was all about monolithic Clans, and when two Clans clashed, neither side wanted to be bad and in wrong, and writing conflicts that didn't make people feel mad was hard. By making clear visible split between Protagonists and Antagonists, you have much bigger freedom in creating and resolving conflicts.

There is one good thing about possible Onyx that I think noone pointed out. By having clear Rebel Alliance / Evil Empire split, you can introduce "Rebel side of the Clan" and "Empire side of the Clan". This way, you can have protagonist of each Clan (including Spider who didn't follow Kanpeki) fighting against antagonists of each Clan. What does this mean?

It means you're making an external conflict central to defining each clan's identity.

No thanks.

What you see as a bug, (No one feeling they're in the wrong; different perspectives equally valid), I see as a feature.

When I sit down at a table to play a game, that game is about my clan's beef with your clan. Whether over land, or someone who shouldn't (or should) have been married, or someone who ate their soup with the wrong **** chopsticks and dishonored the memory of the chef from whom the recipe was passed down. Like whatever, it's important to my clan and your clan. So we fight.

Intraclan game? My family vs. your family, or even a clan civil war. Whatever, they happen. But it doesn't have to be because of whether we're "rebels" or not. That's just not this setting.

The Clan War may have begun with Crab revolt, but every clan was trying put their own asses in that throne.

To be true Rokugan allways had external threads and they are part of the setting. I mean most of the Arcs where cnetred arround an external threat and we allways had the Shadowlands as external threat. So at least when you played against the Shadowlands decks you played against a external threat and veen the same we would have in Onyx Empire.

The good guys against the evil empire allways was part it was just called Rokugan against Shadowlands so why not make this a focus of a story arc again and instead of ventureing into the Sahdowland swe take back the empire from it. It is not out of setting cause the Shadowlands an important part of it and it is not something odd for the game cause the Shadowlands are the classic external enemy of Rokugan.

I still can´t see why this would be so terrible in cotrast to an oughtright problematic move of resetting the game to a point which unmakes a huge potion of the allready established canon and tells many players who won their story choices that it is unimportant what they did. Because even if it is kept it is no longer Canon an therefore it does not matter to anyone playing the game.

I know they are totally different companies (now), but the way AEG did the Doomtown reboot would probably be a good idea. Just assume everything in Onyx happened, and allow new players to dive into the history as it was if they so choose, but also add a large gap in time from where the story was and is now. In Doomtown you knew something catastrophic had happened, but they sort of let you figure out the intricacies of it. If the Spider were taking over Rokugan, let that happen but make it distant history. They can either be the ruling class or be repelled and exist in hiding, stripped of their great clan status, but still a great clan in the minds of the players (like Scorpion and Mantis at points in the story). Then the story can start off with signs of a resurgence of the Spider, and it can be like the Shadowlands was in the beginning. It is basically a soft reboot without removing all the story the playerbase has spent two decades helping craft.

Why continue Onyx when even a significant portion of the Spider let alone the rest of the community weren't even happy with how it was panning out? Keeping something because it was a successful and engaging part of the setting is one thing. Keeping it just because "it happened in the old story" is entirely different.

Cause the signioficant potion of the spider is not so significant as you think. The vote was made over the Imperial assembly and I fo my part did not participate on the vote cause of this . What Iam sure about is that there is, as allways, a minority which is just very vocal about their demands.

the votes never really reflected the thoughts of the majority of the Clan player bases cause if they did there would be far less discussions about why the phoenix took this way and not the Maho or why the Spider went back to embrace the evil.

I see it taht way for every guy who supports the thought Spider are evil and needs to be punsihed I think there is one pragmatist who says yeah but hey if they take over we want some part of the pwoer too.

Thing as ususal peope who dislike things tend to be far more vocal and engaed to get the things wodn they dislike therefore it seems that a great part of the cumunity dislikes the Spider when in reality the people who like them are just not

so vocal.

To be honset as far sa this concerns the AEG forum I can undertsand them cause hey everytime someone was Spider firendly there he gots tons of hate from loaded on him from not from many but a fiew very active people.

Therefore I think we can jkeep Onyx without a probelm cause I doubt that the real majority of the current playerbase would oppose the empire really at least not if it is something which just happend and they get not forced to play in it.

Even if the spider portion was not as significant as I "thought", they're still only 1/9 of the player base. The assumption that every silent party of any clan wanted onyx is an even bigger leap on your part. Past evidence besides votes(the khans March) show that people/playerbases generally don't support someone winning if it isn't them.

My expierience with the players I encountered show me the opposite. Yes ofcourse this is in no way representative but I don´t think that most people share the hate for the Spider this vocal minority has. I mean I don´t even know

why I would hate them cause we are not even living in Rokugan and Onyx provides so many story and mechnical opportunities to each clan. For example Crane could get their beloved harriers back. Scropion finaly get use of the Onis eye.

Phoenix get acess to true maho. There are so many possibilities why not use them.

Yes I know most of this was not voted for but hey I know mayn phoenix for example which are not very happy with the choices made. So I think Onyx is an opportunity far more want than it apprears at the moment but the ones who don´t just are more vocal.

My experience has been the exact opposite. So much so that I wouldn't consider people who dislike the spider to be a vocal minority. While it may not be a vast majority of the entire l5r community due to general story indifference, it's vastly outnumbered the pro spider contingent. That being said, I don't find it to be the best way to measure how the community "feels".

Why would people hate them? Are you serious? They have spent the entirety of the setting trying to conquer and/or destroy the empire. Even in the precious few decades when they were a clan, they were still trying to corrupt the empire. All of the cool bonus perks you mentioned could all be achieved without a "the devil rules the world" plot twist. In fact, most of them already have.

The I know a guy arguments are nice, but I find them less reliable than definable metrics. The majority of which haven't led me to believe that spider winning is the most agreeable, best, or profitable option.

Why would people hate them? Are you serious? They have spent the entirety of the setting trying to conquer and/or destroy the empire. Even in the precious few decades when they were a clan, they were still trying to corrupt the empire. All of the cool bonus perks you mentioned could all be achieved without a "the devil rules the world" plot twist. In fact, most of them already have.

Yes Iam serious. I don´t hate any faction inside the game at all. The reason is easy whiel I play a Clan inside of the setting I myself are not part of it. Yes I play my characters in the RPG but I don´t live there. I don´t hate anyone of a fictional universe cause hate isa far to strong emotion to waste them on fictional people besides Joffrey and Baltons Bastard

I see itg that way the spider present cool Story opportunities when the final get what they want and it be disapointed seeing people wasting this. Yes it comes with all clans getting beaten down for a time but good stories are not all time highs of the protagonists but also include harsh setbacks and personal crisis and all this can be provided by the Onyx empire.

So actually why hate them when you also can support this great opportunity to evolve and get a good story out of it.

Anyway we can´t be sure how it goes until FFG says something so we are just taling about assumptions here so all I can say is that they go for the opportunities rather than for the fear that change could drive people away.

I am aware that we're not Magical Samurai. The issue is balance. I don't hate the spider. I do, however, dislike the logical inconsistencies within the setting that their implementation caused and also the preferential treatment they've received over the past decade. i don't see the story choices as cool. I see it as yet another example of a faction being given something they didn't earn, while everyone else has to fight for scraps.

I am aware that we're not Magical Samurai. The issue is balance. I don't hate the spider. I do, however, dislike the logical inconsistencies within the setting that their implementation caused and also the preferential treatment they've received over the past decade. i don't see the story choices as cool. I see it as yet another example of a faction being given something they didn't earn, while everyone else has to fight for scraps.

As I noted elsewhere-- during one of the Spider discussions on the previous forums, some of us said, "Spider Clan, you can have your tea and kabuki in the courts of Rokugan, or you can have Jigoku. You can't have both. Decide."

The more the Spider are tied to Jigoku, the less justification there is for the rest of Rokugan to have anything to do with them, and the more it degrades the setting in terms of coherent worldbuilding.