Problem with spells is that basically, each spell is worth a technique. So at each Rank, your Shugenja is gaining 3 techniques that often are more powerful and useful than "real" techniques, because "you need to expend resources to use them". This balancing factor is vastly overestimated and does...well...not much for balance.

To be fair, you're forgetting that spells require multiple rounds to cast (if higher than Rank 1), and can totally fail. If you miss your spell casting roll, you do nothing for the round except lose a spell slot (and in this edition, there are very few ways to boost your spell casting roll).

All of this on top of the (very) limited number of slots (vastly more limited in number than most other RPGs that use spell slots for casters).

Bushi/Courtiers have none of these drawbacks built into their techniques.

Hmmm... lightbulb. Wouldn't a quick and "dirty" way to fix the Shugenja and their powerlevel be increasing the casting time for some spells, particularly the more damaging/influential?

That would, on one hand, give time for the bushi to do their thing in combat (combat seems to be the main issue with the powerlevel discussion), and on the other hand, would force the shugenja to rely on a bushi to keep him/her protected during said casting time.

I'd also remove the option of calling raises to reduce the casting time, as that would be an easy-to-abuse loophole.

EDIT: I know they're different My point with that example was to show that the important thing was to keep the fun of all the players in the table.

I'm actually all for removing the universal raise option to reduce spell casting time required. If you wanna cast a R2 spell, it takes two rounds, period, no shortcuts around it.

I'd be against arbitrarily raising the casting time on combat spells though. It may sound good on paper, but consider what actually playing that shugenja would be like:
"Okay, it's round 5, and I'm finally ready to unleash my Fires of Osano-Wo (or whatever) spell!"
"Uh, sorry Rick, we finished killing everything last round."
"....C'mon guys, I never get to cast a spell!"

You do have a point there.

One idea that I had recently was to get rid of most basic schools and end up with a few more generic but well balanced basic school with 5 ranks each:

• Bushi
• Duelist
• Scout
• Shugenja
• Monk
• Courtier
• Artisan

You would then introduce the whole clan technique as new paths:

Kakita Technique would replace the rank 1 Duelist technique.

Hida Berserker would replace rank 1 Bushi

Shusuro Shinobi the rank 1 Scout etc.

Not quite sure if this would be an interesting way to approach the RPG.

Sorry, but from my point of view I'm pretty much against this. It may be an intersting approach for some RPGs, but for me it is not L5R. Besides the characters would have to start at Rank 0, which means in current game terms student, so that they could choose specialized paths for Rank1, since up until now in 4th Edition one chooses to replace the Rank Technique from the Rank (s)he just gained. So if you'd rise from Rank1 to Rank2 you'd have to find a Rank2 technique too replace the Rank2 technique you'd normally get from your school.

---

And since someone mentioned the Asahina Frie Sculpters-Path, that's one of the Paths which has to be a joke...I mean, why would any Shugenja want to choose an Alternate Path for the Element where (s)he has a Deficieny without loosing this Deficieny?

Besides everyone seems to forget that there were aditional rules for Courtier and Shugenja in the Imperial Archives.

For Example:

"A basic method is for the GM to allow characters to add their Glory Rank to the totals of their Social Skill rolls when influencing others. This can either be a constant bonus or a triggered one, the latter approach reflecting the character actively throwing his fame behind what he is saying. The bonus can be limited to a certain number of times per session, or triggering it can carry a cost: one point of Glory per use, burning social capital to persuade others. In either case, this bonus clearly cannot apply in any situation where the character’s identity is not known.

A similar thing can be done with Status (though in that case a cost-based approach would not make sense). ..."

" Indeed, this is one of the reasons why shugenja are used sparingly on the battlefield, lest they anger the spirits by abusing their powers. (In game terms, it is also part of the reason why

there is a limit on how many spells a shugenja can cast in a day.) It takes both a tremendous effort of will and tremendous religious understanding to properly summon forth the kami and to shape them to a desired result.

Doing so haphazardly or without reverence may draw the wrath of the supernatural realms, manifesting in anything from a brief magical backlash to a serious decline in the shugenja’s ability to cast spells."

So if you are a GM and think you Shugenja is over using his magical powers, than remind the player that (s)he is, in D&D-terms, playing a Cleric. A Shugenja has religious obligations too.

I someone asks me "What are pen and paper-roleplaying games?", then I normally answer "A mix of improvisational theater and dice rolling". From what I read I get the feeling that some of you for get the "improvisational theater"-part and focus too much on the dice rolling...

Sorry, but from my point of view I'm pretty much against this. It may be an intersting approach for some RPGs, but for me it is not L5R. Besides the characters would have to start at Rank 0, which means in current game terms student, so that they could choose specialized paths for Rank1, since up until now in 4th Edition one chooses to replace the Rank Technique from the Rank (s)he just gained. So if you'd rise from Rank1 to Rank2 you'd have to find a Rank2 technique too replace the Rank2 technique you'd normally get from your school.

I am not quite sure why you are against it because you give no insight in why that might be.

And why would he start on level 0?

I think it would not be such a stretch to say a character reaches rank 1 during character creation, picks up the Duelist Basic School and replaces the 1st rank with the Kakita Duelist Path.

This was my intention, might not have been obvious. But I did not want to change the starting level.

I someone asks me "What are pen and paper-roleplaying games?", then I normally answer "A mix of improvisational theater and dice rolling". From what I read I get the feeling that some of you for get the "improvisational theater"-part and focus too much on the dice rolling...

Well I would say that improvisation theater is something that is common for all RPGs. That hardly changes.

Just the dice rolling part can be vastly different, so it makes sense to talk about the dice rolling part in an environment where everybody is aware what RPGs are.

I also fail to see what would be the big problem to focus on the dice rolling...

I mean you seem to care to much about the dice rolling to see the appeal of an Asahina Fire Sculpture. So perhaps you better take your own advice.

I am not quite sure why you are against it because you give no insight in why that might be.

And why would he start on level 0?

I think it would not be such a stretch to say a character reaches rank 1 during character creation, picks up the Duelist Basic School and replaces the 1st rank with the Kakita Duelist Path.

This was my intention, might not have been obvious. But I did not want to change the starting level.

Well, for once:

I'm fine with the way the character-creation and Clan-Family-School-part functions.

I like it, that every Bushi/Courtier/Shugenja/Monk/Artisan/Ninja is different because of the School he was educated at and differs even more through the 40XP one can spend during char-creation and put some emphasis on one part due to Alternate Paths.

Yes I'm missing some Alternate Paths or Advanced Schools for some Basic Schools in some Clans, but that is just because I have a story-driven playstyle. And if I really think that something is missing I can always talk with the GM about it and together we find a solution.

Still, if I ever were to play an Asahina-Shugenja I wouldn't use the Fire Sculptor-Path, because it makes no sense.

First: The Asahina have Fire as Defeciency

Second: The sculpture only last for as many minutes as my Fire Rank is

Third: I can get the same effect with "Summon Fire" without "loosing" the chance to learn new spells

And I don't think that I'm that much of a power gamer, since in the L5R-group were I play my Shosuro Actress I'm always half a Rank "behind" the others:

SHOSURO ACTOR SCHOOL [NINJA]

Earth 2 Stamina 2 Willpower 2

Air 2 Reflexes 2 Awareness 4

Fire 3 Agility 3 Intelligence 3

Water 2 Strength 2 Perception 2

Void 3

Acting 5 - Disguise TN -10, Emphasis: Profession-Geisha

Etiquette 3 - Emphases: Courtesy, Conversation / +3 Insight Rank

Knives 3 - Emphasis: Sai / No off-hand penalties

Meditation 1

Sincerity 3 - Deceit

Stealth 2

Perform: Song 4

Athletics 2

Courtier 2

Sleight of Hand 3

Investigation 3 - Emphasis: Notice, Interrogation

Temptation 1

Perform: Samisen 3

Craft : Tailoring 3 Emphasis: Kimono

Perform: Dance 2

Lore: Shintao 1

Craft: Cooking 2

Forbidden Lore: Kolat 1

Perform: Biwa 1

Artisan: Poetry 3

Artisan: Origami 1

Calligraphy 1

Tea Ceremony 1

Advantages :

Dangerous Beauty

Precise Memory

Voice

Clear Thinker

Sensation

Disadvantages :

Consumed: Perfection

True Love

So, just because I don't see a reason to take ONE Alternate Path, doesn't mean I'm a power gamer...my focus is to play or GM an intersting story.

Summon Fire just summons fire...

No sculpturing going on here, also the fire dissipates immediately. Summon Fire can light a fire. Not much more.

I am also not sure what you posted the character sheet for, that shows me nothing without context.

It just give me the impression that you are very focused on the rules.

Which is nothing bad, because power gamer are not inherently bad role player.

Actually I would like a bit more power gaming from time to time, so people would look up the rules that everyone agreed upon.

Method actors and storyteller (if we go with Law's classification) can also be very annoying fellows, if they don't commit to the group.

And in the end this is what RPGs are all about.

It is always a group efforts. An experience that you have together.

And therefore it is important to respect every member of the group... Even the power gamer.

Problem with spells is that basically, each spell is worth a technique. So at each Rank, your Shugenja is gaining 3 techniques that often are more powerful and useful than "real" techniques, because "you need to expend resources to use them". This balancing factor is vastly overestimated and does...well...not much for balance.

To be fair, you're forgetting that spells require multiple rounds to cast (if higher than Rank 1), and can totally fail. If you miss your spell casting roll, you do nothing for the round except lose a spell slot (and in this edition, there are very few ways to boost your spell casting roll).

All of this on top of the (very) limited number of slots (vastly more limited in number than most other RPGs that use spell slots for casters).

Bushi/Courtiers have none of these drawbacks built into their techniques.

Tempest of Air doesn't take multiple rounds to cast. Flames of Purity don't take multiple rounds to cast. Touch of Emptiness don't take multiple rounds to cast.

Tempest of Air shutdowns multiple people at once, and until you have Simple Action Attacks, you literally, physically, cannot attack in the round in which you were subjected to it, on top of having -10 ATN and being restricted in allowable stances. Touch of Emptiness means that it takes your Shugenja one action to make chosen opponent unable to attack with no ability to resist until next round. During which you can apply this spell again. And again. And again. You can literally stunlock people for as much rounds as you have Void Spell Slots, and due to Void Versatility, this is probably Void+One Element. How do you like the fact that 1st Rank Shugenja can stunlock ANYONE, be it Kakita Daimyo or be it one of Seven Thunders, for 6 rounds straight, and then proceeds to switch into knocking that person down?

Magic has no reason to be "flamethrower". This is a setting about samurai in general, not Shugenja specifically. All three "power sources" should be as viable as each other - there is no reason for one to be eclipsing all other, especially if it's not the iconic one for the genre.

Another thing is that there is absolutely no reason for Shugenja to be worse at stuff than Bushi or Courtiers - because nothing they need costs XP . Shugenja want high Rings, which means high Traits, but everyone want high Traits . They don't have any skill based mechanic or "job skills"; you expect your Shugenja to have Theology and Spellcraft, but having anything past 1 in Theology doesn't make any difference. There are no mastery abilities for it that you need in order to enable you to do your job (hi, "you either have Kenjutsu 5 or Iaijutsu 3, or you spend your whole first round drawing your sword while your opponents kill your comrades, or in case you decided to fight with non sword weapons, ALWAYS spend first round of combat awkwardly drawing your weapon unable to do anything!"), and there are no contested Theology rolls where you need to make sure that you can outpace your opponents (hi, eternal chase of Etiquette vs everything else). You can spend the whole game on Theology 1, raising your Intelligence to get more powerful spells and spellslots, and you still will be able to do your skill-driven work. There is also no societal pressure applied on you to develop any specific skills; you literally are left to your devices, so you can happily spend your XP on better Traits to become better at spellcasting, and still as good as other people in skills, because if you have Intelligence of 3, taking Sage will make you a better expert on topics where people have 3 or 4 skill points invested, but only Intelligence 2.

So this leads into a funny situation where your Shuggie can just power up their Traits, and then proceed to occupy any niche he desires, be it combat or be it social monstery.

Compare it to the fact that both Bushi and Courtiers both have societal pressure applied on them to raise their skills to non-trivial levels, and skill in which they dabble actually involve contested rolls and mastery abilities that actually matter. If you are a sword user, you are expected to raise two skills to minimum of 3 at start (Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu - and if you don't have Iaijutsu 5, you are begging to get shanked in duels, because +5 to Focus is like a technique). If you are a Courtier, you better grind that Courtier and Etiquette.

The fact that Shugenja can probably replicate your technique and be better at what it does using a spell he probably didn't even had to pick - because he can Importune for it - isn't helping either. Shugenja mechanic simply seem like an afterthought; they don't interact with most of the game, they don't care about most of the game, and other than checking if you are raising your Rings, they literally don't require a single XP from you to become stronger. If your Shugenja decides to become a better duelist than your non Kakita Bushi, sure he can! Ditto with courtiering. And while doing so, they are not slowing down their magical prowess either, because it will give them Insight anyway.

Most of spells look like written by people who didn't look at how these spells will work in game, how they interact with each other, and how mechanics they employ actually work. In general design of Shugenja is terrible - it doesn't invoke "priest" at all, resembling wizards or X-Men more than anything. And before someone starts saying that "but fluff makes them Priests and fluff is more important" - I can play L5R fluff on any mechanics I want. Fluff being good or bad doesn't justify badly designed gameplay. People having fun with something also don't disprove that it might be badly designed.

I'm actually all for removing the universal raise option to reduce spell casting time required. If you wanna cast a R2 spell, it takes two rounds, period, no shortcuts around it.

Hmm...I'd have to go back and look in the rules, but I don't think 4th edition allows that. So they've already done the mod you suggest. As one of the other posters pointet out, this is one of things that balances out the combat power of a shugenja vs. a bushi. The bushi is probably doing around 6k3 or 4k4 twice per turn. It is hard for any shugenja to match that rate. Yes they have 8k6 spells...but those take 4 rounds to cast. In that time, the bushi has done up to 48k24 damage, and divided it among different targets as was convenient to them. Shugs may be OP in the *range* of things they can do, but I don't think they outshine the bushi in terms of pure damage dealing.

I'm actually all for removing the universal raise option to reduce spell casting time required. If you wanna cast a R2 spell, it takes two rounds, period, no shortcuts around it.

Hmm...I'd have to go back and look in the rules, but I don't think 4th edition allows that. So they've already done the mod you suggest. As one of the other posters pointet out, this is one of things that balances out the combat power of a shugenja vs. a bushi. The bushi is probably doing around 6k3 or 4k4 twice per turn. It is hard for any shugenja to match that rate. Yes they have 8k6 spells...but those take 4 rounds to cast. In that time, the bushi has done up to 48k24 damage, and divided it among different targets as was convenient to them. Shugs may be OP in the *range* of things they can do, but I don't think they outshine the bushi in terms of pure damage dealing.

4th Edition still allows it. Pg 163, paragraph 2

This option still remains in the 4th Edition, so you still can spellsling people in one round. The "bushi attacks twice in one round so 48k24 damage" is argument made in void, forgetting that people can move around, assuming that you are always adjacent to the Shuggie, and that you always hit him (hint - Shugenja want high Air for Air slots. Air gives them Reflexes, which gives them ATN and Reflexes, and makes their Defence Stance better; and there is 0 reason for Shugenja to NOT be in a Defence Stance all the time, so in practice, unless your bushi comes from a school with inherent ATN bonus, your Shuggie is going to have at least the same ATN as your bushi, and if he grabs some armor and Defence Skill, he is probably better in this regard too; remember also that because Shugenja has no other thing to do with it currently, he is probably Voiding his ATN to get another +10). Why is Shugenja bothering to cast 4 round spell if he can stunlock you with 1st level one, burn you to death 4 times with 100% accurate 2nd level spell that deals damage in keep dice equal to your Fire Ring (which means that it starts at katana-level damage, and with every Fire Ring-Up, it deals more and more), knock you down with Tempest of Air, or make you unable to move for 5 rounds with Grasp of the Earth?

"Shugenja spells take time to cast!" is a nice argument, but spells that make most impact don't take more time to cast than one melee attack.

Also, for Courtiers - not only your Air Shugenja has naturally high Awareness due to spellcasting, they gain access to spell which increases all Social Rolls by +1k1 (hi, this is better than courtier techniques) and another spell that adds flat Air (or double the Air if you raise) to your Awareness rolls and ATN. So for price of 2 spell slots, your Shugenja has +1k1+[Air] to everything social, on top of their normal social abilities. Opportunity cost? One of many spells you can learn or Importune.

Why one character type has better range of options, can occupy more than one option at once, and is better at these options than other character types? Because Magic.

With regard to social mechanics and giving guidance for how they should be modified to suit circumstances and keep them being mind control -- that would pretty much be the chapter I wrote for Imperial Archives . Which, admittedly, came quite late in the edition -- heck, I came late to the edition, in terms of writing for it. One of the things I would have advocated for in 5e would be integrating that kind of information much sooner. But it is there!

(Also: hey everybody, I'm back in the land of the internet-living, and have found my way here.)

Tempest of Air doesn't take multiple rounds to cast. Flames of Purity don't take multiple rounds to cast. Touch of Emptiness don't take multiple rounds to cast.

Tempest of Air shutdowns multiple people at once, and until you have Simple Action Attacks, you literally, physically, cannot attack in the round in which you were subjected to it, on top of having -10 ATN and being restricted in allowable stances. Touch of Emptiness means that it takes your Shugenja one action to make chosen opponent unable to attack with no ability to resist until next round. During which you can apply this spell again. And again. And again. You can literally stunlock people for as much rounds as you have Void Spell Slots, and due to Void Versatility, this is probably Void+One Element. How do you like the fact that 1st Rank Shugenja can stunlock ANYONE, be it Kakita Daimyo or be it one of Seven Thunders, for 6 rounds straight, and then proceeds to switch into knocking that person down?

Tempest of Air requires not only successfully casting the spell, but also a successful Ring vs Ring roll. If the target(s) make the Earth roll, the spell does absolutely nothing.

Also, Tempest of Air affects a rather large area. This is as much of a hindrance as it is a help.

"A couple of bandits stop you along the road. Next round their allies come over the hills to either side of the party."

Is this shugenja going to be wrecking everyone's day, his own party included? Or will that large cone effect hamper his effectiveness? I'm betting on the latter, if you want to have friends left after game ends.

Touch of Emptiness not only doesn't last long, but it doesn't hamper you defensively. You don't have to spend every round attacking if you are a bushi. Hang back in Full Defense, let the condition wear off, and re-join the fight. It's a spell that definitely slows the attack down, but it doesn't flat out stop it by any means. As for being "stun-locked," why do you assume said shugenja is always winning initiative? Dazed allows for a "save" during the reactions stage. If said bushi target makes that roll successfully, and can go before the shugenja (high Reflexes, spend a Void for +10, etc) then it's very far from a stun-lock situation.

And finally, Flames of Purity offers zero protection from ranged attacks. None. Pepper that shugenja full of wooden shafts (arrows, spears, knives, whatever) and he'll drop like anyone else.

Magic has no reason to be "flamethrower". This is a setting about samurai in general, not Shugenja specifically. All three "power sources" should be as viable as each other - there is no reason for one to be eclipsing all other, especially if it's not the iconic one for the genre.

No, L5R is a setting based on romanticized Eastern mythology set in a fictional, magical, world. And Shugenja are samurai, so I don't see what you're getting at there.

As to viability, all three "roles" (more than three, actually) are equally viable . What they are not , is totally equal. And that's okay.

Another thing is that there is absolutely no reason for Shugenja to be worse at stuff than Bushi or Courtiers - because nothing they need costs XP . Shugenja want high Rings, which means high Traits, but everyone want high Traits . They don't have any skill based mechanic or "job skills."

Huh? Everyone wants high Traits, but not everyone wants high Rings.

Bushi have a built-in emphasis on Skills + Physical Traits.

Courtiers have a built-in emphasis on Skills + Mental Traits.

Shugenja have a built-in emphasis on Physical Traits + Mental Traits.

It would be totally unfair towards the Shugenja to require them to need a heavy emphasis in Skills as well. Rings are expensive to keep high.

As to the rest of this argument, it sounds way more like you have an issue with the power of Skills vs Traits. In that, I would totally agree. 4th Edition did a huge disservice to Skills and even people who think it's the best, most balanced, edition to date tend to agree that Skills got the short end of the stick.

But that's not the Shugenja's fault.

The fact that Shugenja can probably replicate your technique and be better at what it does using a spell he probably didn't even had to pick - because he can Importune for it - isn't helping either. Shugenja mechanic simply seem like an afterthought; they don't interact with most of the game, they don't care about most of the game, and other than checking if you are raising your Rings, they literally don't require a single XP from you to become stronger. If your Shugenja decides to become a better duelist than your non Kakita Bushi, sure he can! Ditto with courtiering. And while doing so, they are not slowing down their magical prowess either, because it will give them Insight anyway.

This argument makes me think you've never actually played a shugenja in a real game.

No, you are not going to be better than the Courtier as politics, even if you can manage to give yourself a couple of bonuses to Social rolls.

No, you will not be a better fighter than the Bushi, because he can focus his XP into traits and skills that give him an edge, while you have to keep your Rings balanced to maintain 1) spell slot availability, and 2) the ability to actually meet your Spell Casting TNs.

I'm currently in a 4th edition game at my local game store, I'm a rank 2 Isawa shugenja, i can see how some see that the shugenja are overpowered, yet i never rolled more dice than my groups courtier or even our 3 bushi, being rank 2 my strongest spell does 5k2 or 3k3, unless i cast " Fury of Osana-Wo" during a really bad storm, which has yet to happen, at my rank the TN to ignore or reduce some of my spells effects are relatively low. My 3k3 spell takes 3 rounds to cast unless i want to pass a TN 25 to make it go of sooner, when with my dice-pool i rarely roll twenty. Sorry for ranting or whatever, I'm still rather new to the game and it's system. On an unrelated note how do I get little text bullets under my posts?

Spell TN's are really, really low. It's 10 for Rank 1 spells, 15 for Rank 2 spells, 20 for 3, 25 for 4, and 30 for 5. Most of the time, if you are using your time effectively, you are casting Rank 1 or Rank 2 spell, so you are looking at 10 or 20 (15 + acceleration Raise). Odds of failing TN 10 roll are...low. Rank 1 character with Ring of 3 and willingness to Void the Spellcasting Roll has about 85% chance of making the Quickened Rank 2 spell. Unless you are suffering wound penalties, it's hard to fail these rolls.

Aiming the Tempest isn't very hard - you still have Free Action move to adjust, after all. Spell Slot availability is hardly a problem in a system where 3 round fight is a long fight, and you have Void wildcard slots. Archery is actually less deadly against Shugenjas than against Bushi, because Bushi have to be in one of attack stances tin order to use their abilities, while Shugenjas can freely get that Defence Stance bonus ATN. If you are really dedicated, there is also Soul of Four Winds kiho waiting for you to gain another School Rank+Air ATN. Air Shugenja willing to get at least Air of 4 is one of hardest things to hit ever. And because of how important Reflexes and Awareness are, it's a very solid choice for primary or secondary focus for your magic. (Rank 3 Shugenja with Soul of Four Winds and Air of 4 is going to have ATN of 36+Defence skill naked. Archers are going to have troubles piercing through ~46 ATN, because they can't access Full Attack Stance; if your Shugenja embraces himself being a combat shuggie, add Armor and dual wielding bonuses on top of that, going into 60ties). Note also that Fires of Purity doubles as both defensive and offensive spell, because 2k2 fire damage triggers both when you get hit, and when you hit someone. So it's kinda like being a Bushi with extra +2k2 on their damage roll, and damage retaliation.

Outdoing Courtier isn't very hard, because of how social mechanics are designed - schools rarely give you direct bonuses now, and more often than not give out gimmick special abilities that are not necessary for courtiering, but make your life somewhat simpler. Bulk of the courtiering boils down to role playing and rolling skill rolls. And due to existence of these easily castable spells, your Shugenja is going to have an edge on actual Courtier. Doji Courtier technique gives you Free Raise on specific rolls. Free Raise is a +5, or raise effect negotiated with your GM. Benten's Touch gives you +1k1; each time this spell allows you to keep a roll with 5 or more, you just replicated Doji's technique. Having better roll also allows to raise more, naturally. Only situation where it's better to have Doji tech instead of active spell is when your Raises limit is one short of achieving your goal; which is where Free Raise shines.

(Which leads into GM strategy of making "really easy TNs for rolls, but making players fill them up with Raises to achieve what the actually want, and using Raises as gates")

Of course, higher level Courtier techniques allow more special abilities, and some of them are non-replicable; but spells also allow special options, and more of them to the booth.

Edge gained from skills in combat is actually minimal - biggest reason to get up your combat skills is to get mastery abilities. Kenjutsu 8, Agility 2 person is many, many times worse warrior than someone with Kenjutsu 1 and Agility 4. As far as hitting stuff, you are perfectly fine with 1 or 3 in a skill. This is partially due to Full Attack Stance existing and it providing just enough rolled dice bonus to put you at "yeah, I'm probably not going to be stuck with random 1 or 2" comfort spot.

Still, my biggest beef with shugenjas is that, essentially, each spell is a technique. Which means that compared to everyone else, Shugenja has two digit number of techniques they can pick freely, while Bushi and Courtiers are locked into 5 techniques with rather small customability. If this is eastern fantasy, why there is gigaton of spells, but 0 training manuals containing teachings of martial artists, allowing you to pull off their moves? Why there are no koans and lessons that allow Courtiers to grasp human nature and how things roll better, manipulating stuff into a specific way?

There are thirty pages worth of spells in core rulebook alone. In almost each supplement, another ten or so is added. This is material available to shugenjas of all schools, all clans.

So basically:

1. Fix the math behind the spells. Spells being reliable to cast is good; spells having effects like "this person cannot move for 5 rounds" isn't very good, especially if they are easily accessible

2. Throw out the Spell slots, and activate spells using Void Points. This gives Shugenja "more spellslots" per day, sure, but L5R isn't very good game about managing resources on such scale; so focus on encounter-per-encounter resource management, and Void Points shine there.

3. Give other splats mechanical counterweight to spells. Special manuevers, breathing techniques, wisdom of past masters - anything, probably with Void Point spending attached.

I'm currently in a 4th edition game at my local game store, I'm a rank 2 Isawa shugenja, i can see how some see that the shugenja are overpowered, yet i never rolled more dice than my groups courtier or even our 3 bushi, being rank 2 my strongest spell does 5k2 or 3k3, unless i cast " Fury of Osana-Wo" during a really bad storm, which has yet to happen, at my rank the TN to ignore or reduce some of my spells effects are relatively low. My 3k3 spell takes 3 rounds to cast unless i want to pass a TN 25 to make it go of sooner, when with my dice-pool i rarely roll twenty. Sorry for ranting or whatever, I'm still rather new to the game and it's system. On an unrelated note how do I get little text bullets under my posts?

What spells are you using? Fire has a Rank 2 spell with Fire Ring DR and no ability to miss, and Earth has rank 2 spell with DR equal to Earth Ring and also no ability to miss.

What TN "to ignore or reduce spell effects" are you talking about?

In general, combat power of Shugenja usually lies in ability to restrict an opponent - either by blasting him with unavoidable k4 or so of damage, making him unable to move, or imposing devastating status effects.

The tn i was mainly speaking of the the stamina 15 tn to not be deafened by fury of osana-wo and the TN 15(earth roll) to not be knocked down by the rank 3 water spell Strike of the Tsunami to not be knocked down. Sorry for not being very clear I'm still a newbie to this game community.

Re: Shugenja as Courtiers

The thing to remember is that spells have visual effects, and it's usually considered quite dishonorable to "buff up" before a social conversation.
If you're casting that Benten's Touch, everyone around you will notice that the Air kami just did a happy dance around you, even if you manage to Stealth roll the spellcasting.
(The only school that gets away with this kind of thing is a Soshi, and that requires dumping a spell slot for no effect in addition to successfully Stealthing the casting roll and taking the honor hit for being a dirty scumbag.)

Not to mention that Benten's Touch only lasts for one hour. "Diplomatic negotiations" can last significantly longer than that.
Air Kami's Blessing is a rather minor buff unless you manage to call the raises to double the effect, and doing that puts you at a base TN of 40 - not an easy number to reliably hit (and by the time you've spend enough XP to reliably hit that 40, the Courtier has enough tricks up their sleeves that the bonus is of minor value).

So will a Shugenja (specifically an Air shugenja, as any other element focus totally negates this entire discussion), out "courtier" a bushi? Yes, absolutely.
But no one can "out courtier" an actual Courtier.

•••••

Re: Spells are Techniques and there should be more diversity of options for non-Shugenja

We totally agree.

Strike of the Tsunami isn't very effective overall; still, it's worth remembering that the Stamina roll takes place after 3k3 damage is applied, so it's effectively "15 plus any wound penalties you managed to inflict".

Deafened is a funny thing, because there are no actual rules for what being deafened means .

Summon Fire just summons fire...

No sculpturing going on here, also the fire dissipates immediately. Summon Fire can light a fire. Not much more.

I am also not sure what you posted the character sheet for, that shows me nothing without context.

It just give me the impression that you are very focused on the rules.

Which is nothing bad, because power gamer are not inherently bad role player.

Actually I would like a bit more power gaming from time to time, so people would look up the rules that everyone agreed upon.

Method actors and storyteller (if we go with Law's classification) can also be very annoying fellows, if they don't commit to the group.

And in the end this is what RPGs are all about.

It is always a group efforts. An experience that you have together.

And therefore it is important to respect every member of the group... Even the power gamer.

Well, then Summon smoke, be creative.

In one of my groups a player asked me if he could make the road leading into the village bumpy so that the galopping attackers will have troubles, I allowed it becaus I like the idea. And while the Shugenja prepared the street, the Bushi trained the villagers to defend themselves (yes, we were playing "7 Samurai").

Yes, I know the rules but as a GM I'm also always prepared to bend them so that the players have more fun (like last week I allowed a player to roll on willpower to maybe resist a maho-spell, because I thought it was fitting) .

And as a player I always want to have fun with the other players, I know what my character is able to do and what she can't do (I'm playing females only).

Still, sometimes my character tries to do stuff she can't. Like for my Shosuro: she and her fellow Samurai are currently staying with a blind Samurai who has no servant, so my actress tried to cook a meal...it was not perfect, but eatable and I asked my GM if I can write down cooking as a skill, the GM agreed and since then she is providing the meals for everyone. (come to think of it...I may advance this skill...). And it may have come to your attention that my Shosuro has the Advantage "Sensation" and still has more than one Perform-Skill, because I want her to be able to do any kind of performance but I want her to be better at some skills. She is after all a "living" character, so yeah, she plays every instrument but she plays the Biwa and the Shamisen better than the others, yes she can speak and tell stories well, but she is a better singer. So I "wasted" 4XP to buy skills she already had, so I would be able to let her get better at these specific skills.

And, since I'm from Austria the Background Information for Shosuro Sasori is in German...but I show you my totally overpowered mighty bushi-courtier-Shugenja, Agasha Sakura :

Character Sheet

20 Questions

(sorry, for the sarcasm, but I couldn't resist )

Oh, trust me, if I ever get a chance to play L5R RPG, I'm not playing anything but Mantis or Tortoise.

Was like that once but there are just scenarios and settings where there are limited options.

I remember a RPG session we had for a month where we could only pick Bushi Schools from the initial 6 clans. For the Empire scenario.

Half of us ended up being Scorpions.

Playing Scorpions can be fun...I never thought I would like to play one. And now I can't get enough playing my Shosuro.

I hope it is ok to post this here.

If anyone want's to try to play 4th Edition L5R with me, I'm GMing a Oneshot just for you.

Up to 5 players are able to join.

You can play a Samurai from any Clan except for Spider.

When: next Saturday, October the 3rd at 19:00 CET.

If you happen to have a webcam, would be great to use it, but voice only works for me as well.

This Oneshot will be played in English and will take place if I get at least 2 players until September the 30th, otherwise it will be canceled.

I haven't read every post in this thread, because they seem to be all over the place. I'm just going to toss in my two cents.

I'm a huge fan of L5R 4th Edition. I haven't played any other L5R games, but I feel like the philosophy of this edition really works.

Also, it's important to remember that board and card and RPG mechanics can't be patented. That means that if the L5R acquisition didn't come with the Roll and Keep mechanics, there's not actually anything preventing FFG from using it anyway. A simple re-write and it's all new Intellectual Property ^tm ! I love roll and keep and I think more games should make use of it. I mentioned elsewhere on this board that I want an Android RPG using roll and keep.

The RnK system has not been patented (to the best of my knowledge), but it is not the case that board/card/roleplaying game mechanics cannot be patented (plus other possible IP issues). There are reasons why companies do not just wholesale lift RPG systems without any sort of license/permission, and I would be pretty shocked if a company of FFG's caliber (and, I presume, preference for avoiding possible litigation and guaranteed bad blood) stooped to that.

"Patented" is the wrong word here. It would be either copyright or trademark, and the system is definitely copyrighted; I don't know whether it's been trademarked as well. Using R&K (in modified form or otherwise) would definitely constitute a derivative work under copyright law, and the odds of it counting as fair use are pretty low. Unless R&K was included in the sale, we'll be looking at a new system.

(My previous message got buried in the earlier part of the thread because it had to wait for mod approval, so: <waves hi to everyone>)