Well, yes and no.

I agree with the point that the careers, if too many are mashed together, become uncomfortably similar to classes in D&D. And it's not so much the limiting of options we're for here - it's having ENOUGH careers that the fact an individual career only has so many exits is outweighed by the individuality of the career paths.

Remember, if you want to switch career paths you can move to a new basic career. OK, so it'll be slower to get better at the new job - but isn't that a reasonable approximation of a real-life adult switching careers? They're going to need to do some scut work before they become an important figure

There is a great difference between the Militiaman, the Soldier and the Mercenary.

And having separate careers means having more text to detail these differences and help players truly understand how their character fits in Old World society. It has nothing to do with skills, really, but with background and story.

Generic "rogues" mean nothing storywise. And that career is of no help to the imagination. The career system should IMO cover all major strata of the Old World society with specific, well fleshed out careers.

We now know there are "agitators, apprentice wizards, commoners, dilettantes, soldiers, thugs, zealots, and many more." Some old favourites there, though Commoner sounds very generic. It might just cover peasants, though there are a number of careers that could also be absorbed into it.

The more the previews, the worse.

What is coming through between one tiny preview and the other is the sad reality of all this.

WFRP 3rd will be a Boardgame without a board. Simpler than that can't be.

1) Less careers to accomodate the difficulty of creating hundreds of different cards, but enough to create illusion of careers.

Being a "warrior' isn't exactly what WFRP career system is famous for.

2) Peculiar dice (that will never give possible results like a d100 used creatively) but can accomodate modifiers from cards.

3) 4 books that will give us nothing more that we already have (roleplayingly speaking), only more shallow.

4) A time period very marginally different, and perfectly playable with what we already have (with tiny ajustments)

5) More gamist rules, focused on "how you do what" and not "what you do".

6) Player limits... gone are the day of a pencil, some papers and your imagination?

7) Flashy, videogame style graphic, to appeal baby would-be heroes. Don't worry, pay daddy.

8) Mechanics to regulate social interactions, another aspect that could be improved with an ad-hoc expansion.

I've bought many FFG products, but on this one you are playing dirty.

A roleplaying game doesn't need 100$ worth material to be innovative.

Ok, DeathFromAbove, you are entitled do your own opinion. But to state my own opinion, I'd like to address some of the issues you raised...

1) Less careers to accomodate the difficulty of creating hundreds of different cards, but enough to create illusion of careers.

I can understand that, but personally I don't mind buying expansions (as they have already spoke of them) to bulk up the available careers.

2) Peculiar dice (that will never give possible results like a d100 used creatively) but can accomodate modifiers from cards.

The new dice system seems to be throwing off a lot of people, but I am very excited about it. I think having dice pools makes the players turn more "active". They get to physically do things in the real world to interpret what their character is doing (i.e. gather whatever dice are necessary for the check, and instead of just getting a number to tell him "Yes, you succeeded" or "No, you failed" they get to see HOW they passed/failed, because the symbols have so many different outcomes)

3) 4 books that will give us nothing more that we already have (roleplayingly speaking), only more shallow.

There seems to be a lot of people claiming to have read the books already. Please, share the info that you have read from the books, as I know a lot of us are aching to read them as well. But seriously, this claim is totally unfounded. None of us know what these books contain, so calling the content shallow is just unjustified.

4) A time period very marginally different, and perfectly playable with what we already have (with tiny ajustments)

Then you are set. No need to purchase this new game.

5) More gamist rules, focused on "how you do what" and not "what you do".

I think the "what you do" is still the focus, they just add the "how you do it" mechanic. Which I think facilitates more roleplaying. I know I have some gaming companions that cannot roleplay to save their life, and it kills the game for me sometimes. But with these rules, you pretty much have to roleplay in a mechanical sense.

6) Player limits... gone are the day of a pencil, some papers and your imagination?

Why is that? Did you throw away your 2nd edition books? I for one do not enjoy writing everything down (the one drawback I have with RPGs in general), and I very much enjoy having more tokens and beautiful cards to track gameplay. But we all have different tastes.

7) Flashy, videogame style graphic, to appeal baby would-be heroes. Don't worry, pay daddy.

This is a fairly narrow-minded statement, as it assumes that gamers who enjoy elaborate fantasy art are childish gamers. But whatever. Again, everyone has their own tastes. I love the artwork, and I know there are plenty of people out there that hate it. FFG can't please everyone, but they do an amazing job pleasing me.

8) Mechanics to regulate social interactions, another aspect that could be improved with an ad-hoc expansion.

This was covered earlier, but its another aspect that I'm very excited about. I'm new to WHFRP, although I've been familiar with the old system. I think this box set is the prefect product for me to get into the game, and I look forward to unleashing it on my game group when it comes out.

A roleplaying game doesn't need 100$ worth material to be innovative.

That is absolutely true. But, then again, it sure doesn't hurt. They have my money on this one.

d100 aren't so hot. Don't get me wrong, I like generally like WFRPv2's mechanics, but d100 suffers from one of the same problems as d20 in that you don't have a realistic curve of results. Multiple dice systems offer a more realistic, bell curve distribution of results favoring the average and more extreme occurences being less likely. Multiple dice systems better simulate that (for example, the spellcasting systme of WFRPv2t, although how well v3's system works remains to be seen by most of us.

Cynical Cat said:

Anyone who's played L5R will know the truth of this - so I'm not opposed to the dice system in principle. The videos have probably got me to the 'buy the core set' stage, but how that plays will determine if I switch systems from 2nd edition

yep saw the vids; so now have an better idea on Jr ed WFRP

What I didnt like:

* Stance system ( just seems like its not nessecary )

* Dice system ( i can see people 5mins for people to asseble the dice roll and get a result ) good GM can get the varied results you need

* Got the feeling its grabbed some warhammeronline ideas; tactics - party benifits etc

* Just to manys bits and bobs; and too much tracking

* No Halflings ( more of those around than elves )

* Cant see how i could run a game using RPTOOLS

What I did like:

* Wood elves

* Stance system ( just seems like its not nessecary )

One of my favourite things about the new system. It gives the player a very flexible way of modifying the dice roll, something that until now was mostly the perogative of the GM.

* Dice system ( i can see people 5mins for people to asseble the dice roll and get a result ) good GM can get the varied results you need

I've had a lot of experience with different dice pools, they won't take much longer than the current one. As for the 'good GM' argument, I'm not sure what GM fiat has to do with dice mechanics (the same could be said for v2 - a good GM could ignore the percentile system and just decide whether you succeed or not), but in any case v3 seems to put more emphasis on player contribution and control.

* Got the feeling its grabbed some warhammeronline ideas; tactics - party benifits etc

Those are pretty standard RPG traits these days, not something from WAR.

* Just to manys bits and bobs; and too much tracking

Bits and bobs yes, tracking not really. What tracking is there will be easier because of the bits and bobs, but Warhammer always had tracking. Wounds, Criticals, Insanity points etc. v3 just tracks them with counters and cards instead of pencil and paper.

* No Halflings ( more of those around than elves )

Halflings aren't that popular. It doesn't matter that there are more of them around if no one wants to play them. There are more horses than elves in the Empire, but that doesn't mean we should have a 'horse' race in the core. There are certainly more skaven that either halflings or elves (or both put together), but again they aren't a good PC race for the core (though they are probably a lot more popular than halflings).

* Cant see how i could run a game using RPTOOLS

Definately an issue for those that use them, though I'm sure someone will come up with something to meet those needs.

Ok, DeathFromAbove, you are entitled do your own opinion. But to state my own opinion, I'd like to address some of the issues you raised...

You're welcome. This is a forum, after all.

>>1) Less careers to accomodate the difficulty of creating hundreds of different cards, but enough to create illusion >>of careers.

>I can understand that, but personally I don't mind buying expansions (as they have already spoke of them) to bulk >up the available careers.

Ok, you're rich guy. Sorry for bothering you with such a trivial matter. I will spend 100$ knowing that ALREADY there are expansions.

Aside that I'll spend $100 with having the feel of a "partial" game.

>2) Peculiar dice (that will never give possible results like a d100 used creatively) but can accomodate modifiers from >cards.

>A roleplaying game doesn't need 100$ worth material to be innovative.

>>That is absolutely true. But, then again, it sure doesn't hurt. They have my money on this one.

It seems to me that this "concept" of "having money from someone" is a little overabused. Do You want attract buyers declaring your total acceptance for a product that isn't yet finished, swearing of the blast you'll have playing it?

Not so politically correct.

>.The new dice system seems to be throwing off a lot of people, but I am very excited about it. I think having dice >>pools makes the players turn more "active". They get to physically do things in the real world to interpret what >>their character is doing (i.e. gather whatever dice are necessary for the check, and instead of just getting a >>number to tell him "Yes, you succeeded" or "No, you failed" they get to see HOW they passed/failed, because the >>symbols have so many different outcomes)

It seems that dice pool are a new mechanic of WFRP 3. But they don't. Have someone have done a session to the Burning Wheel or The Riddle of Steel?

Then I'm sure that the dice pool will be a lot lesser "exciting mechanics". The system above do a great job with dice pool, even.

But, to me, the dice pool mechanics presented remember me more of starquest than a RPG. My impression, of course.

>3) 4 books that will give us nothing more that we already have (roleplayingly speaking), only more shallo w.

>>There seems to be a lot of people claiming to have read the books already. Please, share the info that you have read from the >>books, as I know a lot of us are aching to read them as well. But seriously, this claim is totally unfounded. None of us know what >>these books contain, so calling the content shallow is just unjustified.

MMMM... let me think. Less carrers, much more cards, less races, expansions already on the way... adventurers kit... More mechanics to display and describe.

Since the production value is on the "trinkets" I don't expect meety books.

>4) A time period very marginally different, and perfectly playable with what we already have (with tiny ajustments)

>>Then you are set. No need to purchase this new game.

My money are mine to be spent. Perhaps I'll buy a copy of WFRP 3rd to write you (excited) that I was right.

How knows...

>5) More gamist rules, focused on "how you do what" and not "what you do".

>>I think the "what you do" is still the focus, they just add the "how you do it" mechanic. Which I think facilitates more roleplaying. I >>know I have some gaming companions that cannot roleplay to save their life, and it kills the game for me sometimes. But with >>these rules, you pretty much have to roleplay in a mechanical sense.

Oh yes.

Everything is written, everything is ruled.

>6) Player limits... gone are the day of a pencil, some papers and your imagination?

>>Why is that? Did you throw away your 2nd edition books? I for one do not enjoy writing everything down (the one drawback I have >>with RPGs in general), and I very much enjoy having more tokens and beautiful cards to track gameplay. But we all have different >>tastes.

I roleplay, you rollplay?

The games you describe, though, already existed. They are called boardgame.

>7) Flashy, videogame style graphic, to appeal baby would-be heroes. Don't worry, pay daddy.

>>This is a fairly narrow-minded statement, as it assumes that gamers who enjoy elaborate fantasy art are childish gamers. But >>whatever. Again, everyone has their own tastes. I love the artwork, and I know there are plenty of people out there that hate it. >>FFG can't please everyone, but they do an amazing job pleasing me.

I think that FFG has an high priority pleasing you, since it seems that you buy whatever they publish in double copy.

BTW, I like artwork too.

But you know what I mean and your replay is a proof that you don't have the right answer.

>8) Mechanics to regulate social interactions, another aspect that could be improved with an ad-hoc expansion.

>>This was covered earlier, but its another aspect that I'm very excited about. I'm new to WHFRP, although I've been familiar with the >>old system. I think this box set is the prefect product for me to get into the game, and I look forward to unleashing it on my game >>group when it comes out.

Again, you should look at other systems around, and see for yourself.

You could unleash many other things in your games, I assure you.

>A roleplaying game doesn't need 100$ worth material to be innovative.

>>That is absolutely true. But, then again, it sure doesn't hurt. They have my money on this one.

It seems to me that this "concept" of "having money from someone" is a little overabused. Do You want attract buyers declaring your total acceptance for a product that isn't yet finished, swearing of the blast you'll have playing it?

Not so politically correct.

Yet once again a company in attempt to increase profits takes an item that is not broken and breaks it. Nice going.. I understand you inherited this product from another company which was doing a fine job. It had its issues yes but this redesign seems a be created to increase your profits with these new cards ( an attempt to gain card gamer interest) and silly dice with icons so we need your dice to play. I love your board games and own many of them. I also play two of your rpgs, well one now since I assume all warhammer 2.0 stuff will now be axed. RT has my hopes up and am waiting for ever for a true release date. PLEASE DON'T CAST YOUR DEVOTED CUSTOMERS TO THE WIND IN AN ATTEMPT TO INCREASE YOUR BOTTAM LINE. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO INCREASE PROFITS. Ladies and gentlemen $100 for the basic set for an RPG/ Card game, come now.

timberww said:

So much vitriole about an unpublished game... it happens every time someone publishes a new edition for an RPG... I'm sorry, mate, but this kind of messages are becoming very boring.

1. There's already a post about the price of the game. I think many people that write better than me have already given good explanations why 100$ is not so much money when you compare it with what you get: 4 books, so that's a paltry 25$ per book, and you get a lot of extras within that money. It seems, if not cheap, at least completely reasonable.

2. Why was WFRP 2nd edition not broken? Why is FFG going to break it? Have you playtested the game? Has Tzeentch sent you visions of FFG developers devouring WFRP 2nd edition players? Is FFG creating a secret police that will prevent you from keeping on playing 2nd edition and using the new material to be published for your campaigns? (man, I have used material from D&D, MERP, Rolemaster, Call of Cthulhu, even Alternity and Paranoia in my WFRP campaigns, what will make 3rd edition material more difficult to convert if needed?).

3. To all the naysayers, keep playing WFRP 2nd edition and having fun and hit the snooze button, when the game comes out try and decide for yourselves or read a review from someone who at least tried the game... don't waste your time getting blue and/or angry about what could or could not happen... you don't know yet.

Did I hear correctly that the WFRPv3 Tome of Priests only contains eight religions?

Foolishboy said:

I believe what was said that the "Eight religions of the Empire" were covered by the game, which covers all the major gods in the Empire. How much space would be spent on other religions was not mentioned.

Manann, Morr, Myrmida, Ranald, Shallya, Sigmar, Taal, Ulric and Verena are the NINE major gods of the Empire. Which one has been killed off? My guess is Manann, God of the Sea.

Foolishboy said:

Don't forget Rhya, though she's nowadays only mentioned with Taal.

Myrmidia both would and won't be surprising. There are the Knights of the Blazing sun, who are followers of Myrmidia, and also appeared in WAR. They would be perfect for a career in either the core books, or in a future supplement.

Manann is also possible, I never heard of anyone playing a priest of Manann.

Or Jay made an error, that's also possible.

Taal and Rhya aren't widely worshiped these days. They're called the "Old Faith" for a reason. That's just a guess, of course, and it doesn't mean they won't be covered. The faith book is going to be about a 100 pages, just like the rest of them. Plenty of room for a small section on the Old Faith and its game mechanics.

Foolishboy said:

The Tome of Blessings contains information on the nine major human faiths practised in the Empire, as well as additional information on elf and dwarf religious traditions. I mis-spoke during the seminar that was being taped, since I was following up on the heels of discussing the eight Colleges of Magic, but correctly presented this in the other seminars.

Rest assured, the Cults of Manann, Morr, Myrmidia, Ranald, Shallya, Sigmar, Taal, Ulric, and Verena are all discussed. Worship of Rhya is addressed with the worship of Taal, so in terms of the pantheon, Taal & Rhya share the same "space." More commonfolk ask for Taal’s mercy than Rhya’s blessing, and apart from country matters, her worship is limited. Some say that once the two gods were two aspects of the same god, but the wild warriors of Taal dismiss such foolishness...

ynnen said:

You know what that means? Fluff. WFRP2 has only one page about these. I'm sure we'll learn more about these raligions this time.

ynnen said:

Thanks for clearing that up.

Okay, I am late to the news because I have had the original game's website bookmarked for a while expecting news to be announced on that (I will now just check FF front page every time and then navigate to the appropriate page).

WOW! What is going on here? I like the changes to the rules so far (and thank you for the enlightening video), but what is up with all of this paraphernalia? These changes to the rules can be done without all of that stuff (espeically with a few good character and party sheets). Now you have gone off and make updating the rules really expensive (sorry, but I want to pay less to try it out because that kind of investment is expensive if I don't like what you did), but now I have to keep track of all these pieces of the game like it is Arkam Horror or something (which is fine for that, but not really fun for a rpg). I also liked having the main rules all in one book (that was part of the charm).

I am not against updating the rules, especially if they help out with story and roleplaying (hats off to you, btw, for trying to do that), but having cards for talents, careers, spells, monsters, and all of this fluff is not what I was hoping for.

I know on your Q&A is says that 40K will not be following, but I can not help but feel a little betrayed and suspicious now.

Good luck with this stuff, I guess...

Dustin said:

From what we know of the dice mechanic I'd have to say that no, these changes to the rules could not be done with out all the 'stuff'. Technically, I suppose, you could use normal dice and keep all the reference stuff on tables in books - but that wouldn't be a workable system. Without the custom dice and the cards figuring out the result of every dice roll would be too long and complicated. The game would bog down and immersion would be ruined.

Okay, well maybe I did not understand correctly then. Still, I have read games were they are able to get this stuff into the rules without all of board game pieces outside of the rule book. It also seems that with a good character sheet, you can avoid all of these trappings. That works well for a board game, but for a long term adventure, it makes it really hard and clunky to set this stuff up all the time. I am not sure what this would be like, but what if the players want to take home their character info?

And another thing is that I usually like my players to have their own copy of the rules, because I don't like them messing up my books, so there goes that.

I know you guys hate hearing this crap, but games like Burning Wheel, Shadow of Yesterday and a few others that were able to do board game like invations without the board game trappings (well, except for FUDGE Dice, which I hate). If I could see the rules up close, I could make suggestions on how to do that and still have a fast and fun game, but I am not willing to pay $100 to find out. In fact, if you need special dice to play this, then how are you going to put a quick start version of it up?

It sounds to me that the rules have changed so much that it may not be the same game any more (if you need all of that stuff to play) and $100 to buy the main rules and to update your game is expensive.

I am really disappointed now

Hi all,

I am a huge warhammer fan. I must admit that i have not purchased much 2nd edition stuff however 3rd edition looks pretty amazing.

When is it coming out?

I need to start planning things now boy i am excited i am so pleased that the warhammer world which is such a distinctive place remains intact.

So what next and when?