Another interesting debate occured today between a ground of friends and I concerning what weapons should trump other weapons. The argument goes about the nature of a Relic Blade which can in theory destroy power weapons. The question is whether anything can destroy relic weapons or whether anything should be immune. I know what I'm going to do and I've already decided this but I'm curious what anyone else has done for this and what the community feel in relation to the hierarchy. This is more a discussion about the fluff strength of weapons which I know is entirely subjective and based on whatever writer had that book/codex at the time but I am curious whether in the midst of so much inconsistency, we can establish a common pattern. I state now before going into a list of assumptions that there may be a number of questionable moments or inaccuracies and apologise in advance for any elements which may be wrong or controversial.

We know that Power Weapons wreck basic and primitive items, this is without debate. Question is, do Relic Blades wreck force weapons? In the hands of a non psyker, a force weapon was said in one of the books somewhere as counting as a basic weapon of the appropriate type which means it complies with the previous and can be shattered in theory by a power sword. Now nothing then distinguishes a force weapon in the hands of a psyker as anything different which again means a relic weapon can slice through it.

Should Xenos power/force weapons such as Eldar blades, Tyranid Boneswords be treated differently or are these also the same perhaps?

What also, are peoples thoughts on Power/Relic versus Daemon Weapons such as the likes generated from the Black Crusade system? Daemon Weapons pick up a power field so should shrug off being cut from that however the rules of that system say it is very difficult to destroy a daemonic weapon but has rules for if it happens all the same. It doesn't say how... Should a daemon weapon therefore be immune to being shattered by a relic blade or should the finest weapons of the Astartes cleave through the heretical and blasphemous artifact, tearing it asunder but releasing the beast within? Or should the foul powers of Chaos theoretically stand defiant, the clash of blade on blade or worse, have a holy item or power sword splinter against the foul decay of an item wielded by a champion of the ruinous arts?

Would you count the Dawn Blade, wielded by O'Shovah Farsight as a relic weapon? It's own fluff say it can cleave through rock but would it take out a power weapon?

Arguably as well, at the very top of the tree, going on fluff terms, is the C'tan Phase Sword and Warscythes. In the stories, the latter has sliced through the barrel of a Leman Russ battle tank and cleaved a hole in a reinforced rockcrete bunker. As rules state it has a power field so resists its own kin. However should this stand defiant against a relic blade or daemon weapon? The former is even more deadly and if we go via the original interpretation of this weapon (Old Witch Hunters codex, wielded by a Callidus Assassin or used normally by a 3rd Ed C'tan and not using that 5th edition instant death crap), these blades theoretically slice through ALL materials irrespective of physical properties and treat armour and forcefields as if they were just nothing (except when you hit a C'tan, it merges back in and then you're left up the proverbial creek). Theoretically then, the person who wields a phase sword is king, splintering power, force, relic, daemon or xenos blade alike as if they were nothing but there are no official rules for these items yet in any viable system AFAIK but again should they contest? How do you unmake the item which can destroy all other weapons?

One of my friends sees it as being four distinct tiers of item:

Normal < Power < Force Weapon < Special

And that each outclass the one below it. Special seems to hold all the other types of item defined above which then move into the relative fluff strength of each item. Hooray for vagueries and inconsistencies!

Again the entire thing is argued initially as a conflict of rules versus fluff which is why I have added it to the Rules question section and I am trying to provoke a discussion on the matter to see what your thoughts are on this. Wasn't sure whether to add this to Deathwatch or Black Crusade either. Some of the details discussed here will be in use in a campaign, can't say what of course...

The floor is open.

Fingers crossed that:

A: It wasn't me that started this.

B: If it did it won't turn into a Brawl.

Looking at the set of rules as such it looks to me like the basics are normal<mono/chain<power/force with the usual weapons around. Sure normal mono and chain are taken as the same thing in the rules, but I'd really love seeing someone trying to parry a chainsaw, as long as they could do it. The real question is the strange tier weapons. The fluff is all over the place on them. Hell in one book a chaos space marine grabbed a human's power fist(while ON) and crushed it in his gauntlet.

I suppose the first thing to figure is how many classes are there and what falls into what class? Is the Dawn Blade a relic of what race? It has the stats of a warscythe but not the +2 strength. Does the claw of a tervigon trump or hold back a relic blade, what about a carnifex? Some things have armorbane, probably makes them a hell to parry, others while they wound with hilarious ease can't cut through armor to save their life.

Wytchblades, Bone Sabers, Huskblades, Agonizers, Warscythes, Fractal Blades, Phase Swords, Relic Blades, Named Relic Blades, Dawn Blade, Thunder Hammers(parry that @#$%!), Daemon Weapons, Ardent Blades, Holy Weapons, Nemesis Weapons, Void Blades and probably dozens I haven't thought of. We're going to have to make a bit of a list O_o,

First off I will remind everyone: Parrying is not a block. Typically a parry involves striking the side of a blade (not the sharp end) and applying enough force to divert its path away from body parts. You aren't stopping the attack, just moving it out of the way. The chance to destroy the weapons comes from the Power Field rule, specifically how a power field disrupts matter simply by contact. Therefore striking the side of a weapon of any type with a power field will likely result in the power weapon's power field tearing the other weapons molecular structure apart and breaking it. It has nothing to do with how powerful or mystical the weapon is. Breaking the weapon is a function of a Power Field, not uberness.

Any weapon with a Power Field or a "counts as a Power Field" rule will follow the rules for Power Fields.

Relic Blades are Power Weapons and have the Power Field rule. A Relic Blade's Power Field is simply more powerful than that of a standard Power Weapon, thus it overpowers normal Power Fields.

Force Weapons are immune to Power Fields due to their Archeotech nature and psychic field. When wielded by non-psychers though, they count as a normal slab of metal and can be destroyed by Power Fields. ("Unless wielded by a psyker...")

Warp Weapons (being warp weapons) and Natural Weapons (for simplicity's sake I imagine) ignore this rule.

Many Necron weapons have the Power Field special rule, including the Warscyth. Those without it, are still subject to a Power Field.

Some Tyranid weapons are not considered Natural Weapons. Such as Boneswords and Lashwhip. They are susceptible to Power Fields.

Eldar Witchblades have the Power Field rule.

First off I will remind everyone: Parrying is not a block. Typically a parry involves striking the side of a blade (not the sharp end) and applying enough force to divert its path away from body parts. You aren't stopping the attack, just moving it out of the way. The chance to destroy the weapons comes from the Power Field rule, specifically how a power field disrupts matter simply by contact. Therefore striking the side of a weapon of any type with a power field will likely result in the power weapon's power field tearing the other weapons molecular structure apart and breaking it. It has nothing to do with how powerful or mystical the weapon is. Breaking the weapon is a function of a Power Field, not uberness.

Any weapon with a Power Field or a "counts as a Power Field" rule will follow the rules for Power Fields.

Relic Blades are Power Weapons and have the Power Field rule. A Relic Blade's Power Field is simply more powerful than that of a standard Power Weapon, thus it overpowers normal Power Fields.

Force Weapons are immune to Power Fields due to their Archeotech nature and psychic field. When wielded by non-psychers though, they count as a normal slab of metal and can be destroyed by Power Fields. ("Unless wielded by a psyker...")

Warp Weapons (being warp weapons) and Natural Weapons (for simplicity's sake I imagine) ignore this rule.

Many Necron weapons have the Power Field special rule, including the Warscyth. Those without it, are still subject to a Power Field.

Some Tyranid weapons are not considered Natural Weapons. Such as Boneswords and Lashwhip. They are susceptible to Power Fields.

Eldar Witchblades have the Power Field rule.

With respect I think you may have missed the point I was getting at. I havent mentioned parry explicitly however I did notice SirRunOn has and this is because I am fully aware that a parry can be a glancing blow to channel the impact away and a scrape all the way up to a collision which is more of a block than a parry. Rules don't distinguish between that unfortunately. The thing to keep in mind is that it is more originally aimed as a fluff discussion as opposed to a mechanical discussion but it seems to be about to turn that way. I do know that technically because of its explicit rule in its own description saying so, the Deathwatch Relic Blade would destroy effectively everything on the table eventually without comparison which tried to parry it or hits it in a parry which I don't agree with and again goes back to whether fluff descriptions of various weapons listed above should override that and provide sanity to what is otherwise an obnoxiously open rule which is just screaming for abuse.

"Hi GM I'll just take one of these, use Stalwart Defence, spend a fate point, get a parry against EVERY melee attack which comes at me this round and will hit and use the broken element of this rule to parry all the hits and try to obliterate say the Callidus Assassin swiping at me with phase sword and shatter it, Eldar Farseer using one of their most potent and special craftworld Witchblades, A Hive Tyrant taking a swing with a bonesword, Necrons with Warscythes oh and Abaddon the Despoiler wielding the apocalypically potent Drach'nyen and due to the blade saying otherwise, boom 1/4 chance of wrecking each of them unless it also counts as a relic."

Relic being also an entirely subjective matter and falls down to GM creative licence. The only defence to that is for a GM to count everything they want to defend as all relics.

I also said "Daemon weapon" and not "Warp weapon", you misunderstand and it is a completely different thing which refers to the act of binding a daemon to any weapon as per the appropriate ruling in Black Crusade thereby imbuing it with an essence of the dark power, not the natural claws/teeth of a daemon which of course follows whatever other ruling. Now as per that book (Black Crusade Core Rulebook P194):

Uncanny Resilience: Regardless of their appearance and apparent construction, daemon weapons are extraordinarily difficult to damage. They count as having a natural armour of 20, and will not be destroyed if used to Parry or are Parried by weapons with Power Fields or similar effects. If a daemon weapon is somehow destroyed, roll immediately on Table 6–3: Perils of the Warp (see page 211). On any result which indicates a daemonic manifestation, it is the daemon within the weapon which is released, at which point it will

likely attempt to slaughter every living creature it can find.

Now this does not immediately mean it gains "Power Field" unless the original weapon had one already. It does not gain Warp Weapon unless picked up by a daemonic upgrade either. Technically since it does not have a Power Field, a Relic Blades own description says it should wreck it but the Daemon Weapon's own description counters saying "parried by weapons with Power Fields or similar effects". This is where fluff comes into play and should a holy relic blade be bested by a dark apostle wielding a potent weapon of the dark gods or should the might of Imperial finery and craftsmanship shine through? And before anyone says anything, yes the two systems can cross over and Black Crusade has a section of using BC created characters as an antagonist in Deathwatch etc.

RE: Nids, probably tabletop codex which calls them Force Weapons however it does seem a bit of an insult that you can disable a Hive Tyrant from doing a sizeable chunk of melee damage with a power sword. Something which by its own description is crackling with psychic energy...probably one for me to consider house ruling to just give it some resistance or any Nid would look very lacking.

There are fluff examples of a Necron Warscythe remaining intact on the battlefield having been hit by turbolasers and while their wielder may have been vaporised the blades remain. There was also a mention that the field seems to grow in strength to whatever hits it which, since Necron tech is a good deal superior in many instances, should mean in fluff it should shrug off a relic blade. As also above, C'tan Phase Sword, should annihilate anything that comes into even contact with it. Given that this thing in fluff and old rules ignores forcefields of all kinds, armour of all kinds and pretty much any other defence or offence that isnt a Necrodermis, even if your weapon so much as catches this thing it should theoretically get a chunk sliced off it. That I can see making a legitimate mockery of force, power, relic, daemon, board with a nail in it...purely based on the idea of the weapon and its stories behind them.

If you're talking about making up rules, then you're talking about house rules and you should move the discussion to the House Rules section.

This section is for questions concerning official rules, and according to the official rules:

1: Only weapons with power fields break other weapons.

2: It only happens when you parry a weapon without the power field rule using a weapon with a power field.

Now, if you have a problem with your players using skills they spent thousands of XP points on (the squad mode requiring the accumulation of said points to unlock) simply because of the powerful abilities these grant them combined with a powerful weapon they can only get IF you as the GM choose to allow them to gain; then, from an official rules standpoint, either don't ever give them the weapon or never reward them with XP so they stay at Rank 1 forever.

"Fluff" is a terrible word and tabletop should never (or very rarely) be evoked for rules in an RPG. How about we have all space marines using their backpack exhaust vents as rockets to fly around, or allowing non-psykers to use force weapons with all of said weapon's psychic-y effects? No, that sounds absurd? Well those are "fluff", from official GW publications. A lot of writers tend to make up stuff when they don't understand, fan-gasm out, or simply need a deus ex to keep the story going.

Never mind that relic blades are RELIC blades, made in the dark age of technology when Human tech surpassed all others. Never mind, Necron technology and how it works is understood, and could be duplicated by the ad mech. You seem to want a weapon of amaze that you can use to punish your players for playing the game and making a mockery of a specific encounter you came up with. Methinks you may be taking things a bit to personally. These things happen in RPGs. Instead of looking for a way to overpower your players using the same old tactic, come up with something else this method doesn't work against.

Granted I didn't look through all my books when I checked for a C'tan phase sword for my previous post, but I didn't find one. So if you want to make an uber-sword-of-awesome-bad-assery-cuts-through-god-ness as a HOUSE RULE, go right ahead. But remember, it still does all that stuff when your player finds a way to steal it from its current wielder and keep it for himself. Then you get to enjoy the butt-hurt when your player uses Stalwart Defense with that sword and AUTOMATICALLY destroys EVERYTHING when he parries.

I never for a moment wanted to make this into a how to punish players and the example I provided was more of a theoretical and over the top argument. No my thoughts are for my own knowledge of the system and for potential development of plot. It is an understanding about lore and rule and whether the two should co-operate. Believe me I have more than enough methods to punish a player if I needed to and don't need a sword to do that...I've already got a few horrible schemes that would make even Tzeentch think "Now that's just cruel".