I'm playing in an End of the World zombie game n noticed what seems to be a completely broken mechanic. When you roll an attack you keep uncanceled negative die and they become stress. This means if I defend myself I just die quicker. This is what happened last game. A zombie attacked me n I took stress. I attacked the zombie n I took stress. It made no sense because I would gain less stress not attacking (n avoiding negative dice) n just walking down the block with the zombie chewing on my arm rather than attacking it. In no world fictional or real does that make any sense. I'm assuming The group n GM are missing a huge rule but I'm not sure what it is. Can someone help me with this? Are we suppose to canceal out negative dice that fall under your defenses? Right now I'm thinking this game is just about killing you no matter what you do in which case I rather just have myself jump off a building end the game and start playing one that is actually fun like Edge of the Empire.

Tim

The GM doesn't always have to add negative dice to your dice pool. If your GM is giving you negative dice on EVERY SINGLE ROLL, he's seriously running the game wrong.

See page 44. There's a section called Difficulty without Stress. I highly recommend having your GM look it over.

Of course it is an apocalypse game in which you play yourself. Most people would probably die in an apocalypse. I actually like the way it is. It makes the game deadly, which is how I imagine the zombie apocalypse.

Of course it is an apocalypse game in which you play yourself. Most people would probably die in an apocalypse. I actually like the way it is. It makes the game deadly, which is how I imagine the zombie apocalypse.

I could see using the option on page 44 in a game intended to last more than a few sessions though.

Oh I think the rule on 44 is fine for things that shouldn't cause stress. But, for combat I think stress levels would be high and so there should be negative dice all around. Not a ton but there should be a chance for it.

The game is about mundane people in stressful situation, so yes it's going to be deadly. *Both* sides in a fight take stress every turn, so you need to get it over with quickly (or avoid the fight altogether). Also as you take stress you become 'resistant' to it (I'm not sure how it's ruled but as a GM I wouldn't let this work for NPCs).

I've not played it yet (looking to start a game soon), however imo it does the setting well.

The game is about mundane people in stressful situation, so yes it's going to be deadly. *Both* sides in a fight take stress every turn, so you need to get it over with quickly (or avoid the fight all together).

Yeah, absolutely. Your action is meant represent about 10 seconds in game time, and combat isn't 'turn-based' in the real world. If you stab someone with a penknife, there's a high possibility that they'll cause some sort of damage defending themselves before actually taking a swing at you. There's also self inflicted injuries to consider; using a shotgun non-stop for a few days is likely to cause noticeable shoulder trouble, and there's pulled muscles with melee weapons etc. To highlight this one, I'm even thinking off offering PCs the opportunity of adding one extra negative die to gain a bonus positive with weapons like axes and baseball bats, to exert yourself a little more to try and finish an opponent off.

Radagast, there's a rule on page 19 "Pushing yourself" which does practically this.

Also remember that resistance essentially nullifies a lot of stress. Already have 3 physical stress and then have to roll one negative die in a test? Well then you simply cannot gain stress from that die because of your resistance.

It balances quite nicely. The first time you find a zombie the act of bashing its skull in causes you some physical (and maybe mental) strain. By your fifth and sixth zombie the physical stress of whacking the zombie with a baseball bat just isn't really hurting you Anymore

The first time you find a zombie the act of bashing its skull in causes you some physical (and maybe mental) strain.

I'd be interested to hear how you'd GM the mental strain part. RAW you can't have stress crossing from physical to mental. Would you conduct a separate Willpower task roll (sanity check) or would you just give Mental stress for witnessing the event?

Some Equipment, Features, and especially Armor, even improvised armor, can all help reduce the Stress that you are getting. I cant remember what show/movie it was, but the characters duct taped magazines to their forearms to help reduce the risk of being bitten. But let's face it, combat is brutal and dangerous, especially in a Zombie Apocalypse! You are VERY likely to get hurt if you engage in combat, so as a Survivor you have to find ways to reduce the chances of being hurt, or avoid the combat altogether, otherwise you are likely to become one of the Undead.

I would also argue that even though there is not a specific rule in the book for it, I think that Stress gained from actions sometimes can/should fall into a different Stress Track than the attribute that you are actually testing for; as long as it makes sense. Both the ZM and the PCs could justify reasons for it to happen, you just have to narrate the outcome.

EotW has very Lite rules, and I am a very big advocate of Interesting Narrative over Strict Adherence to the rules. I encourage players to be creative and innovative with the system, within reason.

The player whom has +Weight Lifter as a Feature under his Physical Stat, could add a Positive Die to his Social Roll when he is Intimidating someone due to his muscles and size. The player bashing in the skull of a zombie could gain both Physical and Mental Stress because they not only tweaked their wrist while swinging the hammer, but that player is a naturally gentle person and the mental image of themselves mashing the brains of another (former) person into the pavement is abhorrent to them.

A bonus to that kind of creativity is it encourages roleplaying, propels the story along while actively engaging the players, and also adds to the Survival/Horror aspect of the Zombie Apocalypse.

I cant remember what show/movie it was, but the characters duct taped magazines to their forearms to help reduce the risk of being bitten.

I'm pretty sure that happened in the Walking Dead at one point, although it wouldn't surprise me if other sources have done the same.

But let's face it, combat is brutal and dangerous, especially in a Zombie Apocalypse! You are VERY likely to get hurt if you engage in combat, so as a Survivor you have to find ways to reduce the chances of being hurt, or avoid the combat altogether, otherwise you are likely to become one of the Undead.

Indeed, I rather enjoy the idea that the system encourages you to avoid combat in this way. It prevents the game from becoming a gorey action movie and keeps it tense and scary.

That said, if the OP's groups wants a gorey action movie story (nothing wrong with that) they can simply ignore negative dice on defense rolls and whatever else they like. Don't ever let the rules put you in a straight jacket regarding the kind of game you want to play!

The first time you find a zombie the act of bashing its skull in causes you some physical (and maybe mental) strain.

I'd be interested to hear how you'd GM the mental strain part. RAW you can't have stress crossing from physical to mental. Would you conduct a separate Willpower task roll (sanity check) or would you just give Mental stress for witnessing the event?

I've been doing seperate willpower tests for some encounters. The first time they met a zombie for example or the first time they met a loved one who had turned. Again stress resistance balances it all out. If they only get one neg dice for the encounter then if they have enough mental stress they CANNOT get any more. Of course you have to deal with success and failures here which I usually make as something narrative. You throw up and feel queesy or can't act in the first round of combat cos you're frozen in place.

Also remember that resistance essentially nullifies a lot of stress. Already have 3 physical stress and then have to roll one negative die in a test? Well then you simply cannot gain stress from that die because of your resistance.

It balances quite nicely. The first time you find a zombie the act of bashing its skull in causes you some physical (and maybe mental) strain. By your fifth and sixth zombie the physical stress of whacking the zombie with a baseball bat just isn't really hurting you Anymore

I was still taking stress even with the resistance. On average I got one stress per attack n two stress per defense so I was damaging myself more defending myself. By walking n n I think defending myself I would have no negative dice since I have no roll n therefore not protecting yourself becomes safer than taking any action to keep yourself alive. That's a broken system.

The problem isn't that fighting zombies is dangerous, that I like. What I don't like is that letting them chew on you without fighting back is safer. If I don't roll combat I don't roll any negative dice which leads to stress. Thats why I was hoping there was a rule that let's you ignore those negatives if they fall under your defense, showing that you are mentally, emotionally, etc tough enough to shrug off some minor nic km so n shocks. I also have never seen this system balance out yet. My group of four were almost slaughtered by three zombies in large part because our rolls went south for two of us. I personally had two ones cancelled out by negative rolls leaving me with two n three negatives (note I was already wounded so I had more negative dice to begin with n this fight was not something we were looking for it was a random encounter. The next fight will kill me flat out).

Also remember that resistance essentially nullifies a lot of stress. Already have 3 physical stress and then have to roll one negative die in a test? Well then you simply cannot gain stress from that die because of your resistance.

It balances quite nicely. The first time you find a zombie the act of bashing its skull in causes you some physical (and maybe mental) strain. By your fifth and sixth zombie the physical stress of whacking the zombie with a baseball bat just isn't really hurting you Anymore

I was still taking stress even with the resistance. On average I got one stress per attack n two stress per defense so I was damaging myself more defending myself. By walking n n I think defending myself I would have no negative dice since I have no roll n therefore not protecting yourself becomes safer than taking any action to keep yourself alive. That's a broken system.

How many negative dices are you rolling per test? I might have been going a bit easy on my PCs because for a lot of Zombie tests I've only been throwing in the one negative dice. In slightly harder situations (bad weather, negative features, trauma, zombie is a loved one etc) I've been throwing in extra dice but I kept the base difficulty quite low to not kill off all my friends too quickly.

Also....even with this resistance should be balancing the stress out for you. If you get on average 1-2 stress per test then eventually the stress nullifies this. After filling up one bar of your track any single stress you get from a test is reduced to zero. Gain two bars in your stress track and any 2 stress you get from a test is also reduced completely to zero. If the amount of neg dice remain relatively constant then the amount of stress gained from your own tests will get less and less.

Also....this IS thematic. The first time you smash a zombies skull in with a cricket bat...its the first zombie you've seen so you're terrified, you push yourself a bit harder (1 extra positive and 1 extra negative) and then with all your weight smash the bat down. That would cause some stress. Maybe your sprain your shoulder or the wood of the bat scratches the hell out of your hand. However the more you do this the less those things effect you. Cuts and sprains and scratches simply get nullified by resistance.

Another thing....why do you keep referring to your own tests as defending yourself. You're essentially painting this picture that when being attacked you have two options. Attack back and roll dice hurting yourself (a bit) in the process or do something and don't roll dice therefore not getting hurt. However, in a stressful situation like this you have to roll dice basically WHATEVER you do. You're not defending yourself you're acting and this might go wrong. You attack, you roll a test, you run away you roll a test, you try and talk the assailant down (assuming you can) and you roll another test.

Talk to your GM about the amount of negative dice you're getting and maybe look into the resistance rules a bit more. If negative dice remain roughly constant eventually stress should stop being a factor when rolling your own tests.

The problem isn't that fighting zombies is dangerous, that I like. What I don't like is that letting them chew on you without fighting back is safer. If I don't roll combat I don't roll any negative dice which leads to stress. Thats why I was hoping there was a rule that let's you ignore those negatives if they fall under your defense, showing that you are mentally, emotionally, etc tough enough to shrug off some minor nic km so n shocks. I also have never seen this system balance out yet. My group of four were almost slaughtered by three zombies in large part because our rolls went south for two of us. I personally had two ones cancelled out by negative rolls leaving me with two n three negatives (note I was already wounded so I had more negative dice to begin with n this fight was not something we were looking for it was a random encounter. The next fight will kill me flat out).

So if I'm reading this right you rolled 5 negative dice? Based on my playthrough thats a lot. Also how much stress did you have before you started taking stress. The 3 stress you received could have been reduced to 2 or even 1 with resistance.

I would suggest the PCs are making some grave errors of judgement if they're rolling so many negative dice.

I would suggest the PCs are making some grave errors of judgement if they're rolling so many negative dice.

I would suggest the GM is...

Yes I think a little more clarity may be in order. Could you give some examples of some of the dice pools? I have to agree that if you were still suffering stress after gaining stress and having resistance.Once in the third tier, you need more than three negative dice just to potentially take any stress. And if that is the case, I have to ask the reasoning behind all those negative dice.

I guess it really depends on the base difficulty of these tests. If you start with a zombie encounter having a base difficulty of 3 negative dice before the addition of negative features, traumas and situational dice then.....yeah that's just too many negative dice

What "base difficulty" is this?

When I look at the rules in the book it doesn't give any such thing.

Lets take a basic situation, say that you were in a room and a zombie walked toward you and you have a pistol.

Aiming and shooting at the zombie would be 1 positive die for the pistol, one positive die for the close range and no negative dice at all. Now, if the room was dark that would add a negative dice and say that there was a hole in the roof through which rain poured in that would add another negative die.

Or am I missing something???

What "base difficulty" is this?

When I look at the rules in the book it doesn't give any such thing.

Lets take a basic situation, say that you were in a room and a zombie walked toward you and you have a pistol.

Aiming and shooting at the zombie would be 1 positive die for the pistol, one positive die for the close range and no negative dice at all. Now, if the room was dark that would add a negative dice and say that there was a hole in the roof through which rain poured in that would add another negative die.

Or am I missing something???

In the section on building the dice pool it says you add negative dice for a variety of reasons

1) Negative features that are relevant

2) Any situational modifiers such as bad lighting or bad weather

3) Traumas

4) And a base difficulty depending on how hard the task actually is.

The book then directs you to (I think...book not on me right now) page 44 where it discusses how many dice to the GM should add to a test. Situations that are just stressful in a normal day situation get on negative dice I think. Then a table says what tests would call for the addition of 1,2 or 3 negative dice as a "base" difficulty. I put base zombie encounters as 1 negative dice. This might be wrong but that's what I went with for my first session.

I would suggest the PCs are making some grave errors of judgement if they're rolling so many negative dice.

I would suggest the GM is...

Yeah one of the two!

I could be wrong, but I think what we have here is someone who is determined to hate the system no matter what evidence is presented. Maybe his GM is a jerk and is "doing it wrong". Maybe this game just isn't for him. Either way, I doubt we'll be able to convince Timfads otherwise.