so i have been going trougth the wepons and....good god they are silly

15 kg for a melta gun, REALLY?! i wanna se some use try and use a gun like a rifel that weighs 15kg.

Any ides for how to reduce the weigth of the guns

Some of the heavy weapons by RAW cannot be handled by a starting character without a perfect roll on Strength and Toughness and maybe good craft bionic arms to heft the **** thing (heavy bolter I'm looking at you, the stubbed isn't much better though) thankfully in my 40k the admech refuses to hand over anything to the munitorum unless it passes some sort of standard of theirs, and many guardsmen (particularly heavy gunners because you're property now son) get bionics, just simple stuff. All the said, the meltagun is pretty effing heavy, I always assumed its because the melta IS an anti-vehicle device made with numerous heatsinks and arcane technology and in all truthfulness is meant to be used in a defensive posture Against defilers and stalk tanks and armored alien xenoforms.

Meltaguns are meant to be used in shock assaults similar to Hotshot Lasguns and other such devices. You want that Meltagun plunging into the heart of the enemy line as an armour hunter, and leaping out of ambushes etc. Essentially, you need the **** thing to be highly mobile.

Some believe that the weights are partially to compensate for the lack of a bulk mechanic, but I'm not sure the intended purpose.

If I knew the weight of actual real-world guns, I could make a supposition as to altered weight.

Well 15 kg would be.....not up on my conversions, someone who is could correct me, but it would be at minimum 30 pounds, that's my bad conversion. A more precise would be closer to 40. I suppose with a strap and your comrade carrying your ammo, you could totally jump a fool with it. Now for SgtLazarus, a real assault weapon like a .50 caliber machine gun is carried by 5 men, and its disassembled. It weighs about 60 pounds all put together. I doubt they do this with meltas though. Which always confused me about 40k heavy weapons. They're never shown or depicted as being carried in pieces and then assembled on-site, its always depicted as carried as one large piece.

Some RL weapons can be pretty **** heavy. The Barrett sniper rifle clocks in at about 14 kilos, but then again, you're not expected to storm any trenches with this beast as you are with a melta.

I can understand the designers' wishes to make these weapons seem uber-heavy, as I too would expect 40k arms to be made from metal instead of the fancy plastics modern rifles are fashioned from, but at the same time we have to assume that the weights were most likely chosen based on rule of thumb, and in some cases it may indeed make more sense to correct those numbers down a bit - not because the weight as listed seems inappropriate for the technology, but rather because it would otherwise become a bit silly to assume that these weapons would see much use at all.

i mention it since im thinking of limiting my players inventory so i was thinking of playing by the carry cap, but then you cant really care much more then youre standard kit.

So im thinking of saying screw that and do like they did in the old UFO games and printe out carry space on grid paper

15kg is roughly 33 lbs. an at4 anti tank rocket launcher is about 4kg and is one shot. It would have the weight of an m47 Dragon anti tank missile launcher and weight less than the FGM-148 Javelin missile launcher that replaced it wich weights 22.3kg. These are the best equivalents that I can come up with.

So im thinking of saying screw that and do like they did in the old UFO games and printe out carry space on grid paper

I like this idea.

If you want to expand on it, you could even make it so that taking something out of your backpack takes longer than just taking it off your belt/harness, promoting a sort of strategic inventory management. Just like in UFO.

Plus, you'd no longer need to have everyone keep track of their weight limitations. I kind of liked it, but I think I was the only person in my several groups that kept this stuff up to date (and I still agree that it's a hassle).

For encumbrance, you could simply split the "backpack" into different tiers, so that the more/bulkier stuff they put in there, the more penalties they get.

Autogun weights 4kg with loaded magazine. RL ak47 weights 4.78 kg. I see nothing wrong with weapon weight. And btw take for account that most of these guns are made from metal, have metal aquilla on them or other ornaments so i don;t see a problem here. Fact that most of starting characters can have 40kg of stuff is also nothing wrong since you can carry 2 times more but be encumbered. Modern soldier carry about 60kg of equipment into combat. So yeah they expect that you will storm these trenches carrying 15kg weapon.

I don't think anyone has a problem with autoguns - the topic of this thread seems to have been chiefly the melta.

It is also of note that weight distribution plays a huge role in encumbrance. 60 kilos distributed evenly from your shoulders feels very different from 15 kilos in your hands. Further, it is important to remember that what people carry on a march is not what they are expected to have on their body when charging enemy positions.

You know what else weighs 15 kilos? A Stinger missile system - and Stinger teams get a jeep plus multiple soldiers to lug it around. So, I suppose a 15 kilo melta might be okay for a mechanised regiment where the troops just have to jump out of their Chimaera, but not all of the IG operates that way.

And that's before we get into shenanigans such as a Heavy Weapons guy taking a 40 kg Multi-melta.

15kg would have the weight of an m47 Dragon anti tank missile launcher. Which is an optically tracked one shot missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M47_Dragon#mediaviewer/File:82nd_Airborne_soldiers_on_Grenada_1983.jpg

The picture is of 82nd Airborne solders carrying them along with their M16 rifles and full combat load.

That, Lynata, is my issue with the Heavy Gunner. how in the SAM HILL is one supposed to lug around a multimelta, heavy bolter, heavy plasma, or even a heavy stubber, which clocks in at JUST 30 kg, compared to the previous three being 40 kg?

Ugh this always happens when someone tries to bring science/common sense into 40K.

And another thing! have you seen imperial aircraft? Especially the space marine ones. Aerodinamics = heresy!

That, Lynata, is my issue with the Heavy Gunner. how in the SAM HILL is one supposed to lug around a multimelta, heavy bolter, heavy plasma, or even a heavy stubber, which clocks in at JUST 30 kg, compared to the previous three being 40 kg?

Thematically, Comrades. =D

The picture is of 82nd Airborne solders carrying them along with their M16 rifles and full combat load.

As mentioned before, what you carry on your back is different from what you have to lug around with your arms. Also, those soldiers do not carry any body armour aside from their helmets, as modern day infantry or even Imperial Guardsmen do.

Furthermore, as per its specifications , the Dragon is designed to be operated by a team of two . Are you sure that it's not one person carrying the 7 kilo launcher, and another the 10 kilo missile? (genuine question - I don't know it, though it wouldn't change anything about the previous two points)

Thematically, Comrades. =D

Clever.

Now you know what ratlings are really good for, ladies and gentlemen! (they've got just the right height...)

Yes, the melta would not be 15kg. Yes a person can carry 15kg, but when you add it all up with the armor, the ammunition the grenades and all the other stuff an OW character is carrying, it's almost too much. Just house rule it to be 7-10kg that's believable in my view.

The heavy gunner gets screwed over weight wise.

A heavy stubber would not be 30kg, it's basically a Browning .30 machine gun which weighed 15kg.

The heavy bolter is essentially a large Mk-19 which weighs 30 kg so the 40kg fits pretty well, but that makes it well out of the range of "man portable" for your average Imperial Guard unit. The only way a heavy bolter works in my mind is if it weighs 20kg as a man portable "light heavy bolter" , and the 40kg one is the Astartes or mounted version.

The heavy flamer is useless in my eyes, just take the normal one, you lose one damage and 10m range but that's it, plus you'll be able to take it with you.

And the multi-melta, it's fixed in a bunker or attached to a vehicle and that's it, there should never have been the option for a guardsman to carry one.

Which leads me to understand that the entire Imperial Guard lacks an LMG for the average squad, something along the lines of an M249 (or F89 or the FN Minimi if you go by the manufacturer's name for it) or RPK. Maybe that role is filled by full auto lasguns, but if not they are seriously lacking an important tool for prosecuting war.

It must just be that having this capability may tip the delicate balance in the galaxy towards the Imperium's favor, and ruin GW's stagnant Grimdark.

I

And another thing! have you seen imperial aircraft? Especially the space marine ones. Aerodinamics = heresy!

Phht, with enough power you can generate any lift you need.

Tinkerbell: * sprinkels fairy dust on SM in terminator armor* "Now think happy toughts and you can fly!"

SM: "Tempt me not daemon spawn! such things cannot be!"

Tinkerbell: "I'm not a daemon, silly! I'm a fairy, now think happy toughts!"

SM: "I have no happy toughts! My beloved Imperium is beset on all sides by the inequity of the xenos and the tyrany of evil heretics!"

Tinkerbell: *puts on tiny commisar cap* "I order you to think happy toughts!"

SM: "Err that might work on imperial guard but not on me."

Tinkerbell: "Why don't you think of the Emperor?"

SM: "I can FLYYYYYY!!!"

Is it odd that when i read "power" and "generate lift" the first thing that comes to my mind is THIS?

Yes.

It must just be that having this capability may tip the delicate balance in the galaxy towards the Imperium's favor, and ruin GW's stagnant Grimdark.

Pretty much what I'd expect, too. In general, from what I've read I perceive the Imperial Guard to be predominantly stuck in WW1-style warfare - and the tactical role the LMG played in this era is already occupied by the crew-served heavy bolter, so adding a second weapon for the same purpose could even increase the Guard's dependence on supply lines by adding a whole new batch of different spare parts and ammunition you'd have to "import" from off-world.

On a sidenote, upon checking Games Workshop's own d100 game, Inquisitor , I noticed that their studio made the meltagun weigh only 1.5x as much as an autogun, slightly more than a boltgun, and barely twice as much as a lasgun (the multi-melta, meanwhile, clocks in at about 3x the weight).

The Brute of Burden talent is a god-send. Take it. Enjoy your STR + TB + 4 carrying capacity.

Yes, the melta would not be 15kg. Yes a person can carry 15kg, but when you add it all up with the armor, the ammunition the grenades and all the other stuff an OW character is carrying, it's almost too much. Just house rule it to be 7-10kg that's believable in my view.

The heavy gunner gets screwed over weight wise.

A heavy stubber would not be 30kg, it's basically a Browning .30 machine gun which weighed 15kg.

The heavy bolter is essentially a large Mk-19 which weighs 30 kg so the 40kg fits pretty well, but that makes it well out of the range of "man portable" for your average Imperial Guard unit. The only way a heavy bolter works in my mind is if it weighs 20kg as a man portable "light heavy bolter" , and the 40kg one is the Astartes or mounted version.

The heavy flamer is useless in my eyes, just take the normal one, you lose one damage and 10m range but that's it, plus you'll be able to take it with you.

And the multi-melta, it's fixed in a bunker or attached to a vehicle and that's it, there should never have been the option for a guardsman to carry one.

Which leads me to understand that the entire Imperial Guard lacks an LMG for the average squad, something along the lines of an M249 (or F89 or the FN Minimi if you go by the manufacturer's name for it) or RPK. Maybe that role is filled by full auto lasguns, but if not they are seriously lacking an important tool for prosecuting war.

It must just be that having this capability may tip the delicate balance in the galaxy towards the Imperium's favor, and ruin GW's stagnant Grimdark.

I

I can agree with stubber since it's suposed to be something like mg42. As for heavy bolter they aren't suposed to be portable since if i recall corectly only one guardsman can go with heavy bolter solo not setting it up. And he is catachan vetaran. As for melta from what i seen from this and other art i am pretty sure it can weight 15 kg. It's 40k people they have cathedrals on ships, tanks with size of a small tanker and you really are suprised metal guns which can vaporize air weights 15 kg?

The picture is of 82nd Airborne solders carrying them along with their M16 rifles and full combat load.

As mentioned before, what you carry on your back is different from what you have to lug around with your arms. Also, those soldiers do not carry any body armour aside from their helmets, as modern day infantry or even Imperial Guardsmen do.

Furthermore, as per its specifications , the Dragon is designed to be operated by a team of two . Are you sure that it's not one person carrying the 7 kilo launcher, and another the 10 kilo missile? (genuine question - I don't know it, though it wouldn't change anything about the previous two points)

read the specifications. It is designed to be carried and fired by an individual gunner.

I wouldn't put it past them to just have the big weights be a thing to keep the party from lugging extra weapons. "I'm the Heavy Gunner, and I wanted a lascannon. I couldn't get one, so I went with the Heavy Bolter. The HB is a great gun, but I need to set it up, and stay in one spot, and it is not so hot against tanks, unless I'm clipping guys off the top of it, so maybe we should also carry a krak rocket launcher", and then the system can step in and say that's all too heavy; you need to pick your weapons ahead of time, and hope they were the right choices, which of course, being the grimdark future, they won't be. It might be nice, even seem sensible to have one of the other players, one whose kit is lighter, carry your second heavy weapon, and give you more versatility, but there's a line between sensibility and intentions of the game mechanics, and we know which side it errs on.

Personally, with a lascannon, an autocannon, and a heavy bolter all being tripod-mounted in TT, 77lbs-88lbs seems like a lot, but not impossible, and certainly gives it the feel of "like where you put it, because it, and you, are staying there for a while". Also, since the ammo is something like 10% of the weapon's weight, and we are talking about huge chains of mini-warhead bullets (they are like 1.000 caliber, or something, so huge), or heavy, pressurized canisters of death (meltas and plasma flasks) nothing in the 40k arsenal seems to have light ammo, so the weapon must be even more stupidly heavy. Heavy flamers are even heavier.

As for heavy bolter they aren't suposed to be portable since if i recall corectly only one guardsman can go with heavy bolter solo not setting it up. And he is catachan vetaran.

People firing and lugging around heavy bolters solo is not uncommon in Necromunda or Inquisitor. But the heavy bolter in GW's material weighs only 3x as much as a lasgun.

Harker is special because he can handle his heavy bolter like others handle said rifle. Urban gang warfare in Necromunda or limited engagements of an Inquisitorial warband are probably not as long and thus not as exhausting as Imperial Guardsmen, who have to bother with their gear for many hours more, if not days.

As for melta from what i seen from this and other art i am pretty sure it can weight 15 kg.

Shouldn't the lasgun be a lot heavier, then, too?

read the specifications. It is designed to be carried and fired by an individual gunner.

Unfortunately that doesn't tell us who carries the missile , which accounts for 2/3 of the system's total weight. Why does it need a "crew of 2" if the launcher is "designed for 1"?

The second soldier could act as a spotter, but again that seems to run contrary to what you just quoted. In the end, for some reason the "crew of 2" makes it a crew-served weapon.

Let me know if you find any detail description of its use in the field, though, my interest remains piqued!

I wouldn't put it past them to just have the big weights be a thing to keep the party from lugging extra weapons.

Yeah, it's possible. Two heavy weapons would be crazy, and with how the rules work it could actually happen if they were lighter.

Arguably, GW didn't bother with this potential issue, though it only increases my growing preference for the aforementioned idea of a slot-based inventory system as opposed to a weight-based one.

Also, since the ammo is something like 10% of the weapon's weight, and we are talking about huge chains of mini-warhead bullets (they are like 1.000 caliber, or something, so huge), or heavy, pressurized canisters of death (meltas and plasma flasks) nothing in the 40k arsenal seems to have light ammo, so the weapon must be even more stupidly heavy.

Although in the Imperial Guard (just like in most real life armies, I reckon), ammunition for crew-served weapons is always carried by some 2nd dude/gal specifically for this reason.

But it's not just a matter of weight, of course - most people only have two hands.

And we're talking about people who tend to shoot the few with more than two