Care to elaborate on said circumstances?

What here to elaborate about? Balin cancels any shadow effect anywhere anytime and only needs to pay a resource, which there are abudance of in the leadershit. Erkenbrand NEEDS to defend HIMSELF and pay 1 health (which might not seem a lot, but for the defender with medicore base def in the sphere without healing could be not that neat).

How is outright cancelation inferior to dealing a new shadow card? Erkenbrand is not a poor man's anything. Also, 3 defense with Sentinel makes him great for multiplayer.

By itself - it's not. By the circumstances both of these can be triggered - it's inferior by far.

Worst case scenario Erkenbrand takes 1 damage instead of being killed outright by an awful shadow card. Balin would have to spend a resource and the defender could still end up dead when the replacement shadow card is revealed.

Less flexible? Yes. More of a risk/gamble? No. Inferior to Balin's? No.

Worst case scenario Erkenbrand takes 1 damage and then dies from attack because now this attack has enough damage to kill him. Balin would have to spend a resource and the defender could sitll end up living when the replacement shadow card is revealed.

Less flexible? Yes. More of a risk/gamble? No. Inferior to Balin's? Yes.

I'm very intrigued by your comments Dan. It seems you like Erkenbrand, and can see a use for him in a Rohan deck. I'm not so sure about that. I mean, he's good- a 3 defense plus shadow cancelation hero in leadership is amazing, but I don't see how he fits in a Rohan deck, at least in a solo deck. The normal lineup is Eowyn, Eomer, Imrahil. With that lineup you can quest for 6 in the first round, then defend with a chump blocker and then attack for 8 with Eomer and Imrahil. With Erkenbrand, you quest for 4, defend with 3 and attack with 3, granted you didn't chump block. That's decent, but it seems that given Rohan's "ally leave play" strategy, I don't see how these new crds fit into that deck.

Erkenbrand seems really good. Especially the fact that you don't need to spend a resource to trigger his effect. One damage can be healed easily while loosing resources is always bad...
Really looking forward to get this pack in my hand and try him out but I don't know yet if he will replace Beregond as the tank defender but he opens up new possibilities for non mono tactic decks at least for me.

The Day's Rising seems to be interesting too. If you pump up Mablung with a Shield of Gondor and give him this attachment he can give you 2 extra resources per round simply by engaging and defending against an enemy.

Captain of Gondor will go into my Boromir FTW deck, it really looks like that one was made for him.

Waters of Nimrodel seems interesting. 3 resources and 3 thread seem to be high but the effect can be really powerful especially in 3 or 4 player games.

Also I like to see more ents. Will definitely try out an ent deck to see how they work.

All in all a good pack from the player card point of view, hope the quest will be awesome, too

First you'd need to give Mablung sentinel somehow.

First you'd need to give Mablung sentinel somehow.

Yes I know. The post above is just a first impression, deck design will come later but with playing leadership you have access to Dúnedain Signal so getting sentinel on Mablung is possible.

OMG! Heir of Mardil + The Day's Rising = WOMBO COMBO!

OMG! Multiple Late Adventurers + Don't Be Hasties + Theodred = MEGA RESOURCE EXPLOSION!!!

Yup, I've been figuring out insane combos with Heir of Mardil. Theodred + Heir of Mardil + Squire or Horn of Gondor is incredible.

Anyway, I really not sure how I would use the new Rohan cards, I see a lot of potential but kind of that "question searching for a problem" situation which in this game happens A LOT.

Just noticed a typo in The Day's Rising. In the title it says that, but in the ability is Day's Rising. I like the latter better.

Care to elaborate on said circumstances?

What here to elaborate about? Balin cancels any shadow effect anywhere anytime and only needs to pay a resource, which there are abudance of in the leadershit. Erkenbrand NEEDS to defend HIMSELF and pay 1 health (which might not seem a lot, but for the defender with medicore base def in the sphere without healing could be not that neat).

How is outright cancelation inferior to dealing a new shadow card? Erkenbrand is not a poor man's anything. Also, 3 defense with Sentinel makes him great for multiplayer.

By itself - it's not. By the circumstances both of these can be triggered - it's inferior by far.

Worst case scenario Erkenbrand takes 1 damage instead of being killed outright by an awful shadow card. Balin would have to spend a resource and the defender could still end up dead when the replacement shadow card is revealed.

Less flexible? Yes. More of a risk/gamble? No. Inferior to Balin's? No.

Worst case scenario Erkenbrand takes 1 damage and then dies from attack because now this attack has enough damage to kill him. Balin would have to spend a resource and the defender could sitll end up living when the replacement shadow card is revealed.

Less flexible? Yes. More of a risk/gamble? No. Inferior to Balin's? Yes.

Which game are you playing where 3 is "mediocre base def"? Did I miss the release of some 5+ base defense characters? There are what 4? characters in the entire game with a defense of 4 or more. I think you need to reacquaint yourself with the definition of mediocre.

Quantifying cards in the vacuum of what sphere they're in is utter nonsense. Leadership has no usable scrying to check on shadow cards, so you arguing that it's just as likely the new shadow will be better is exactly the same as someone arguing the new one will be bad, ie pointless. With Erkenbrand there are no variables, everything you need to make the decision to use his ability is right in front of you the whole time, there's no randomness to account for. How is that worse/inferior to rolling the dice on a maybe? We've already agreed it's less flexible, that's not in dispute, dismissing it as inferior seems hasty if not outright stupid.

I'm very intrigued by your comments Dan. It seems you like Erkenbrand, and can see a use for him in a Rohan deck. I'm not so sure about that. I mean, he's good- a 3 defense plus shadow cancelation hero in leadership is amazing, but I don't see how he fits in a Rohan deck, at least in a solo deck. The normal lineup is Eowyn, Eomer, Imrahil. With that lineup you can quest for 6 in the first round, then defend with a chump blocker and then attack for 8 with Eomer and Imrahil. With Erkenbrand, you quest for 4, defend with 3 and attack with 3, granted you didn't chump block. That's decent, but it seems that given Rohan's "ally leave play" strategy, I don't see how these new crds fit into that deck.

To be clear, I don't see Erkenbrand fitting into the leaves play deck. I see him working in a more traditional-style deck, because he allows Rohan to have a defender. Lately, I am especially interested in pairing Rohan with Gondor and Warden of Healing makes Erkenbrand's drawback not really a problem. It is also worth noting that Captain of Gondor works on Erkenbrand, as anti-thematic as that might seem. Built-in sentinel should not be underestimated, this allows other decks to worry less about combat and focus on other facets of the game.

I don't have a specific deck for Erkenbrand yet, but I am confident that he will end up being a pillar in a new Gondor/Rohan cooperation archetype. The Rohan leaves play deck is a completely different style than this hero, and at this point I don't feel that archetype needs any more help. Once I was able to kill 3 enemies in the same round using only Éomer I was sold on that deck being legitimate. Now I am interested to see different decks based on Rohan characters. It should also be mentioned that actually defending with Erkenbrand has another advantage in that it avoids the recent encounter card hate against chump blocking.

Sounds cool! If you have Spirit in that deck and weenies such as Snoubourn Scout, you can make use the new Helm! Helm! I wonder if this pack is preparing us for what is to come in the Treason of Saruman.

I will also say Don't be Hasty is an amazing card. In a mono lore deck that has trouble questing early on, 3 of these could be crucial. As Trololo said, it's a Lore version of Late Adventurer, but in a sphere which really needed it.

Ride Them Down... Powerful.

Dont be Hasty has a nice thematic combo with Ents. The Ent played during playing, exhausted and well, can ready the same round.

Which game are you playing where 3 is "mediocre base def"? Did I miss the release of some 5+ base defense characters? There are what 4? characters in the entire game with a defense of 4 or more. I think you need to reacquaint yourself with the definition of mediocre.

Quantifying cards in the vacuum of what sphere they're in is utter nonsense. Leadership has no usable scrying to check on shadow cards, so you arguing that it's just as likely the new shadow will be better is exactly the same as someone arguing the new one will be bad, ie pointless. With Erkenbrand there are no variables, everything you need to make the decision to use his ability is right in front of you the whole time, there's no randomness to account for. How is that worse/inferior to rolling the dice on a maybe? We've already agreed it's less flexible, that's not in dispute, dismissing it as inferior seems hasty if not outright stupid.

I'm valuing his base def "medicore" not by comparsion with other heroes, but by comparsion with attack of the foes. We will usually face the ones who'll strike through pure 3 defense, and thats what matters when we are talking about self-wounding ability of the defender.

You just argued that next shadow will be bad

You're missing the main variable - Erkenbrand has just one base action. That 1 possible shadow negated per turn. How much Balin can negate is only limited by the his resources, which there are a lot with leadershit, and on my, I'll dare say, rich multiplayer gameplay experience with Balin, there were plenty of times where he used his ability multiple times per turn on different defenders and it actually helped most of the time, because most of the time you're not trying to just get rid of the shadow, you're trying to get rid of this particular nasty shadow.

Dont be Hasty has a nice thematic combo with Ents. The Ent played during playing, exhausted and well, can ready the same round.

But Don't Be Hasty requires a character to be committed to a quest, which Ent cannot do because he enters play exhausted?..

i like a lot Shadows Give Way, it is a like a part of a new collection: Thicket of Spears as tactics, this one as spirit..., lets see the lore version, and the leadership version.

Love most of these new cards. The Day's Rising and Captain of Gondor both work really well on Erkenbrand and Beregond. All the other sentinel defenders have 2 or less defense, and Theoden is the only other character that has sentinel AND warrior. There are plenty of decent options for Captain of Gondor, but not many that can use both of these. The Day's Rising can fail on Erkenbrand a bit more often because of his ability and because of have 1 less defense, but I still think there are plenty of chances to get it to work and it's always nice to have more resource generation.

I would argue with MNT that Erkenbrand's ability is worse than Balin's, but it's certainly not something that would prevent me from playing him.

Captain of Gondor is amazing and the only thing I'd like better is if it wasn't unique so I can use it on more than one character. (I'd make it limit one per character; It's just wishful thinking though )

It kinda sucks that you have to pay 3 for a halfway decent defender ally, but 3 is a balanced cost for the Warden of Helm's Deep, and you should be able to afford it. An ally with 3 defense and 2 hit points can be pretty useful.

It sucks that Booming Ent starts with 2 fewer stats than Wandering Ent, but he has some pretty good potential for a lot more stats.

I'm surprised by the fact that anyone can use Ride Them Down: no mount or Rohan requirement. This makes it far more useful in a lot of decks. I'm scared to see how good this can be, particularly in Outlands or Dwarves who can muster so much willpower. Even Leadership Gondor decks. None of these is thematic, but oh well.

I don't see Shadows Give Way being played often due to its cost, but in multiplayer, this could be ridiculous.

Don't Be Hasty is pretty interesting. People keep thinking about it as a counter to treacheries that affect questing/exhausted characters. This severely limits its potential. I look at it as a way to "over-quest" as a safety measure, but be able to ready a character later if you find out you don't need that much willpower and would like to have another guy ready for combat. That seems like a much more common occurrence to me. I don't see how MNT sees this as similar to Late Adventurer when it removes characters from questing instead of adding them. I can see where it can have a similar outcome of saving a character from the devastation of a treachery, but by doing the opposite.

Waters of Nimrodel has a ridiculously powerful ability, but it also seems over-priced to me. The effect deserves the price but how many people can afford 3 Lore resources and 3 threat? Also, it's pretty rare that I end up having enough damage distributed to my characters to make it worthwhile. Of course, you can build the deck around high HP allies and Heroes so you can make better use of the card, but I don't think I'd ever include 3 copies.

And of course Treebeard is just awesome and sits as a cross being OHaUH Gandalf and Radagast.

It's simple. Don't Be Hasty is reverse Late Adventurer. With Don't Be Hasty you save unneeded action at en expense of a card, with Late Adventurer you throw in another needed action at en expense of a card.

Don't Be Hasty is pretty interesting. People keep thinking about it as a counter to treacheries that affect questing/exhausted characters. This severely limits its potential. I look at it as a way to "over-quest" as a safety measure, but be able to ready a character later if you find out you don't need that much willpower and would like to have another guy ready for combat. That seems like a much more common occurrence to me. I don't see how MNT sees this as similar to Late Adventurer when it removes characters from questing instead of adding them. I can see where it can have a similar outcome of saving a character from the devastation of a treachery, but by doing the opposite.

You yourself explained how Don't be Hasty can be a lore version of Late Adventurer. Just quest with that one character you'd rather keep and if an enemy pops up and you need the action advantage, just play DBH and you will have it back. It's the opposite of Late Adventurer, but the result is the same, and I'd even say it's better for treacheries such as The Master's Malice.

Also Waters of Nimrodel is going straight to my Grima deck. When you have Aragorn threat is not a problem fo most of the game, and sometimes Warden of Healing can be too slow.

I'm surprised by the fact that anyone can use Ride Them Down: no mount or Rohan requirement. This makes it far more useful in a lot of decks. I'm scared to see how good this can be, particularly in Outlands or Dwarves who can muster so much willpower. Even Leadership Gondor decks. None of these is thematic, but oh well.

My thoughts exactly. How can Outlands be made even better? But... by giving them sniping potential! Between 3 Herdsmen, the Gandalf / Sneak Attack combo and now this, threats like Zealous Traitor suddenly seem much less fearsome. Though my deck that salivates at the prospect of using this event is not the Outlands one (not really needed there - besides, room is tight), but my questing powerhouse secrecy one. Till Celebrimbor's Secret, it had serious combat issues. That pack gave us Wandering Ent. The Antlered Crown graces us with Ride Them Down and Treebeard. With the omnipotent Glorfindel in the mix, it can deliver some serious punches aside from its main function: questing.

Which game are you playing where 3 is "mediocre base def"? Did I miss the release of some 5+ base defense characters? There are what 4? characters in the entire game with a defense of 4 or more. I think you need to reacquaint yourself with the definition of mediocre.

Quantifying cards in the vacuum of what sphere they're in is utter nonsense. Leadership has no usable scrying to check on shadow cards, so you arguing that it's just as likely the new shadow will be better is exactly the same as someone arguing the new one will be bad, ie pointless. With Erkenbrand there are no variables, everything you need to make the decision to use his ability is right in front of you the whole time, there's no randomness to account for. How is that worse/inferior to rolling the dice on a maybe? We've already agreed it's less flexible, that's not in dispute, dismissing it as inferior seems hasty if not outright stupid.

I'm valuing his base def "medicore" not by comparsion with other heroes, but by comparsion with attack of the foes. We will usually face the ones who'll strike through pure 3 defense, and thats what matters when we are talking about self-wounding ability of the defender.

You just argued that next shadow will be bad

You're missing the main variable - Erkenbrand has just one base action. That 1 possible shadow negated per turn. How much Balin can negate is only limited by the his resources, which there are a lot with leadershit, and on my, I'll dare say, rich multiplayer gameplay experience with Balin, there were plenty of times where he used his ability multiple times per turn on different defenders and it actually helped most of the time, because most of the time you're not trying to just get rid of the shadow, you're trying to get rid of this particular nasty shadow.

I'm not arguing that the next shadow card will be bad, I'm arguing that in most every scenario I'd have no idea what my replacement shadow card is going to be, so it's a punt.

Even if Erkenbrand is killed after using his response (because of the extra damage) you're down a character at the end of the turn, but because you're not replacing the shadow card that outcome isn't a surprise, Erkenbrand may still die but that shadow card isn't instigating an extra attack or any number of other effects based on the defending character being destroyed etc. If Balin uses his ability and the defender still dies you're down a character AND a resource. No matter how you slice it, every single time you use Balin's ability you run the risk of leaving your board state worse than if you had not used it at all.

I'm completely aware there you can use Balin's ability on more than 1 attack per turn, but that still doesn't change any of the above. Erkenbrand's strength is that at all points of the exchange the outcome is predictable, I've already said, twice, it's less flexible than Balin's, it's not however "inferior". There's a few ways you can get more than 1 use out of Erkenbrand's ability (Stand Together and Hama, any readying effect, Eomund and Westfold Horse-Breaker if you want to keep a Rohan theme), all he needs is some healing to support him, which is no different than adding resource acceleration to support Balin. It's a different approach, not a worse one.

If Erkenbrand uses his ability and still dies - you're down ENTIRE HERO. It's much, MUCH worse.

It's worse approach. Erkenbrand requires helluva setup - heals and readiness. All Balin needs is some resources, which, ONCE AGAIN, are plentiful on the leadershit. And lets take boardwide bad shadows, let's say someone else on the board was defending and Sleeping Sentry popped up... what can Erkenbrand do? NOTHING. What can Balin do? Replace the heck out of it, and the only bad thing that can happen is another Sleeping Sentry shadow, and the chances are so slim that players will ALWAYS replace it. No matter how you slice it, Erkernbrand is WORSE at shadow mitigation than Balin. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's worse IN COMPARISION. It's different approach on the same kind of question - dealing with shadows, no matter what you say.

If Erkenbrand uses his ability and still dies - you're down ENTIRE HERO. It's much, MUCH worse.

It's worse approach. Erkenbrand requires helluva setup - heals and readiness. All Balin needs is some resources, which, ONCE AGAIN, are plentiful on the leadershit. And lets take boardwide bad shadows, let's say someone else on the board was defending and Sleeping Sentry popped up... what can Erkenbrand do? NOTHING. What can Balin do? Replace the heck out of it, and the only bad thing that can happen is another Sleeping Sentry shadow, and the chances are so slim that players will ALWAYS replace it. No matter how you slice it, Erkernbrand is WORSE at shadow mitigation than Balin. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's worse IN COMPARISION. It's different approach on the same kind of question - dealing with shadows, no matter what you say.

What are you talking about?? If Balin uses his ability to replace a shadow card for another defending hero and the hero still dies it's the exact same bloody outcome. How is that MUCH worse than Erkenbrand dying??? Ridiculous

Balin replacing a shadow and the ONLY bad thing is a second "boardwide bad shadow"??? Hyperbole! Your luck must be so phenomenal if that's the case maybe you should quit LCG's and stick to the casinos?

Erkenbrand needing some readying/healing is completely justified and necessary. He completely negates the shadow, if he had no caveats stronger than throwing away resources it would break the game. It's an incredibly powerful ability sitting on the board from turn one, unlike waiting around for a Hasty Stroke.

Sorry I just don't see how NO shadow card being worse than MAYBE shadow card makes any logical sense.

"It's a different approach on the same kind of question - dealing with shadows, no matter what you say." I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said at the end of my previous post

Erkenbrand and Balin each have there own pros and cons. In some situations, one can be better than the other and vice versa. Stop arguing about which one is better and just agree to disagree on that opinion.

That scenario could not happen unless you chose for it to happen, since there is no element of risk/unpredictability involved. Personally I like having the 3 defense right out of the gate, which is worth a more limited ability to me. I love Balin too, he's my go-to leadership or dwarf splash. I think it's silly to think that one is completely superior to the other. They do different things.