I'd buy a character specific ship with dial if it was the legendary Vader.

That's an interesting idea. It could have been really neat for each ship to come with two dials - one for regular jerks (the dial we have) and one "Ace" dial - slightly improved, limited to PS 8+ to demonstrate their ability to squeeze just a little more out of their weapon of choice.

I don't want a fix like they did with the A-wing and Chardaan Refit. I thought they missed an opportunity to make a really simple fix(rules addendum) and instead used it as a ploy to sell Rebel Aces (another product that really wasn't needed, IMO). The problem with the A-wing was the cost... it was over-pointed for its characteristics and performance. Their "solution" was a card that reduced the cost by 2 points (appropriate enough) but eliminated the ability to carry ordnance! So... they really didn't fix a **** thing or, at best, half fixed it... at a cost.

The problem with the TIE Advanced X-1 is not the performance (IMO) or the stats... it is the cost you pay for it. The simple, cheap and effective solution to the problem is to simply post a rules addendum, lowering the cost by "X" points. Players could use a marker to correct the points costs on cards they already own. Future printings of the pilot cards could feature the new, "correct" points cost. Those players who absolutely must have an "official" card, would then be enticed to purchase NEW models, thus bringing FFG more $$$. They could even sell a card pack just for this model or use it to sell more pilots for otherships, terrain pieces, scenario specific stuff, etc...

FFG, Please...

Please...

PLEASE...

Do not "fix" the TIE/Advanced the way you "fixed" the A-wing.

Hehe ... I think the A-Wing fix was superb. Making the Proton Rockets cost 5 points.

Adding an elite slot for 0 points is ace.

I think that the A-wing was beautifully fixed and well balanced... just saying.

I think that the A-wing was beautifully fixed and well balanced... just saying.

15 points for the Prototype pilot is definitely where it should have been from the beginning.

Hehe ... I think the A-Wing fix was superb.

Indeed. Trying to correct point costs through errata is a TERRIBLE idea. It would lead to nothing but a confused mess of conflicting and rules. The chardaan refit was one of the most elegant pieces of game design I have ever seen.

As are title cards for the Tinter and A-wing to allow higher level pilots to get fat builds.

The Refit was half of the fix for the A-wing. The A-wing Test Pilot title is where the true ingenuity of the fix begins. Double Elite Talents opens some very fun combinations for Greens and Tycho, and giving the other uniques a talent is helpful. I imagine the Royal Guard Interceptor title will be used a bit more and create some interesting options once Autothrusters come out. I don't know if there will be a Refit type card for the Advanced. I really don't care either. A cost reduction alone will not fix the Advanced.

Hehe ... I think the A-Wing fix was superb. Making the Proton Rockets cost 5 points.

Adding an elite slot for 0 points is ace.

That was nice... but it wasn't the problem that needed fixing.

I recall reading once that one of the designers said they were very deliberately trying to do different things when adjusting ships, I even think the comment was in answer about the possibility of an advanced refit point reduction, so it is very unlikely that we'll get anything so straightforward for the advanced. As you said, that ship needs more.

I think experimental interface is going to be a step in the right direction for the TIE Adv. It definitely swings more potential toward Maarek.

XP Interface and Expose on Vader is useable. The same combo adds a little more meat to Maarek's special ability as well. Nothing awe inspiring, but a glimmer of what is to come.

The Refit was half of the fix for the A-wing. The A-wing Test Pilot title is where the true ingenuity of the fix begins. Double Elite Talents opens some very fun combinations for Greens and Tycho, and giving the other uniques a talent is helpful. I imagine the Royal Guard Interceptor title will be used a bit more and create some interesting options once Autothrusters come out. I don't know if there will be a Refit type card for the Advanced. I really don't care either. A cost reduction alone will not fix the Advanced.

All of these "official" fixes, so far, have just opened a can(s) of worms adding more complexity and instead of simplicity. I am a big believer in the KISS principle. Each new wave of ships and cards has resulted in (not in such dramatic ways as certain other games, mind you) power creep as each successive wave has to be better and more bad ass than the previous waves and renders the earlier wave ships somewhat obsolete. I know this is generally how things work in the real world but the Game is called "X-Wing" and that should be the base-line for all ships to be compared to, regarding advantages and disadvantages, features, etc... Even some of the newer ships that, fluff-wise, should be inferior to the X-wing appear to be superior.

Anyways...(got distracted there), the TIE Advanced was built to be the equivalent of the X-wing (or slightly superior). In firepower, it is inferior but that is a relic of its design lineage and Imperial philosophy. Agility wise, however, it is superior, likewise, in terms of maneuverability, it is also superior. The X-wing and TIE/Advanced are equal in terms of Hull and Shield strength (plus they both have hyperdrives). Compared with its TIE predecessors and stablemates, it is bigger and better protected and thus heavier and less maneuverable, which should come as no surpriseIt is a prototype, not meant for general production and is a stepping stone in the development of the TIE/Interceptor, TIE/Defender and the TIE/Avenger.

Perhaps, a Title card (or cards) that allows it to have a System upgrade or take multiple Modifications, simulating the experimental nature of the ship.

All that considered, I think FFG's stats are not bad at all*. Where I feel they failed (and there was no way of knowing this when they created it) is that points- wise, it is over-costed and inconsistent with the general points costs of the other ships in the game. A good guess on the part of the game designers (at the time) but one that has .

That said, I say... fix what is broken (cost) and leave the rest alone.

Simple.

Here's the problem with merely reducing the cost. It is now competing with the Bomber. And that is a very difficult fight for the Advanced to win, as most will prefer the actual hull. And I think it is fair to say, that the Advanced was priced based off Vader, rather at the PS 2 value. And Vader was hardly overcosted back then.

The Refit was half of the fix for the A-wing. The A-wing Test Pilot title is where the true ingenuity of the fix begins. Double Elite Talents opens some very fun combinations for Greens and Tycho, and giving the other uniques a talent is helpful. I imagine the Royal Guard Interceptor title will be used a bit more and create some interesting options once Autothrusters come out. I don't know if there will be a Refit type card for the Advanced. I really don't care either. A cost reduction alone will not fix the Advanced.

All of these "official" fixes, so far, have just opened a can(s) of worms adding more complexity and instead of simplicity. I am a big believer in the KISS principle. Each new wave of ships and cards has resulted in (not in such dramatic ways as certain other games, mind you) power creep as each successive wave has to be better and more bad ass than the previous waves and renders the earlier wave ships somewhat obsolete. I know this is generally how things work in the real world but the Game is called "X-Wing" and that should be the base-line for all ships to be compared to, regarding advantages and disadvantages, features, etc... Even some of the newer ships that, fluff-wise, should be inferior to the X-wing appear to be superior.

For better or for worse, the TIE Fighter is the baseline ship since wave 1, not the X-wing. The Z-95 has now joined the TIE Fighter, as they have roughly the same efficiency.

If you make more ships that are the same efficiency as the X-wing, then they won't get used.

Quoting myself from another thread:

X-wings are amazing in X-wing

Just because the generics suck doesn't mean the ship itself is bad

Um, yes it does mean that! The generics strip the ship down to just the ship. So, if the generic is bad, the ship is bad.

I think the game has suffered some power creep, though I don't think it was all that intentional by FFG. As such, the older ships have kind of been eclipsed. That said, I still think that TIEs are awesome, but they're also filler, but as I read MJ's analysis, X-Wings, Y-Wings, and TIE/x1 are not favored, nor do they seem to perform at the highest level.

MathWing has predicted this all along, even using only wave 1 meta models. I actually don't think we have significant power creep through wave 4, because we still don't have many (or any) ships that that are much more powerful than the standard TIE Fighter.

What we have instead, is more ships that each have different efficiency. Only the best get used at the highest level competitively. The creme rises to the top, and the rest don't get used.

• TIE Fighters and Z-95s are about equal for their efficiency, are at the top of the list, and see significant and consistent use.
• B-wings are a close 2nd, but aren't quite as good. Looking at the tournament results, they are not getting used quite as much, and are overall also slightly less effective.
• For the remaining 13 out of 16 generic ships, none of them see consistent use. In Worlds, the #4 generic ship in the Top 32 was actually the Sigma Squadron Pilot.

Top 32 Worlds stats are here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/125842-2014-worlds-results/?p=1313343

That said, the named pilots have a different value than the generics. Some of them are pretty good.

Here's the problem with merely reducing the cost. It is now competing with the Bomber. And that is a very difficult fight for the Advanced to win, as most will prefer the actual hull. And I think it is fair to say, that the Advanced was priced based off Vader, rather at the PS 2 value. And Vader was hardly overcosted back then.

Aaaaaannnndddd...?

It competes with TIE Bomber how? Regardless of price, I see these as two very different craft with different strengths, weaknesses and upgrade/pilot possibilities. Hell, if they had identical stats, dials, pilots, etc... I'd still buy it just because the TIE/Advanced is sooooo cooool, whereas the TIE Bomber is... well... a different kind of cool. Real world fighters often have very similar abilities and statistics to other current issue aircraft, with the wide variety of ships we now have available to XWM players, I think it will be harder and harder to make each ship totally unique... and I'm OK with that!

Ok, I've read most of the posts quoted most recently on this topic and I have noticed something... all this reference to "Math Wing", the obsolete-ness or competitiveness of certain ships or squad builds is really only relevant to competitive game play, as if this were the only reason to play the game or for its very existence. And this really only matters in the top 10% (completely made up number) of tournament play. Many play and enjoy the game without ever entering into an official tournament. How many of us really will ever get to play at Worlds or even in a regional tourney? I'd venture to say that the majority of people who purchase XWM play it because they like Star Wars and they enjoy playing games with their friends (or even alone). For "casual play" as I suspect most games of XWM turn out to be, only a rough idea of equivalency (points wise) is necessary to produce reasonably balanced and FUN games.

Now, I play in tournaments (and have done reasonably well...) and I'm not down on those who are really interested in competitive play but I play mostly for FUN. And, I bet that I am not only NOT ALONE in this but in the MAJORITY of XWM players.

So, what I'm really trying to say, is as long as the relative strengths and weaknesses of of a given ship/pilot are adequately reflected in this SIMPLE game, I am satisfied. I don't need or even expect that every design will top the lists or set the Meta on fire. I don't care what the top players at Worlds fielded because they have ZERO impact on my enjoyment of the game.

I just hope that when FFG's game designers consider new ships, cards, "fixes", etc... they consider the needs/desires/wishes of ALL their fan base (and paying customers), not just one faction, whether it be the "ultra-competitive" tourney set, the Epic fans, the "casual players" and those who don't even play the game but just collect the models.

For "casual play" as I suspect most games of XWM turn out to be, only a rough idea of equivalency (points wise) is necessary to produce reasonably balanced and FUN games.

If the game is balanced at the top level of play, it will be balanced at the casual level of play. Thus FFG should focus on balancing for the top level, and let that filter down to the rest of the player base.

Better balance is good for everyone.

Whatever the TIE Advanced fixes are, FFG has likely already brainstormed, playtested, tinkered, beta-tested more, fine-tuned, and decided on it a long time before the designers dared mention it in an interview. The lead time for these things is 18 months. At this point I'm just curious what and when it will be revealed.

Here's the problem with merely reducing the cost. It is now competing with the Bomber. And that is a very difficult fight for the Advanced to win, as most will prefer the actual hull. And I think it is fair to say, that the Advanced was priced based off Vader, rather at the PS 2 value. And Vader was hardly overcosted back then.

Aaaaaannnndddd...?

It competes with TIE Bomber how? Regardless of price, I see these as two very different craft with different strengths, weaknesses and upgrade/pilot possibilities. Hell, if they had identical stats, dials, pilots, etc... I'd still buy it just because the TIE/Advanced is sooooo cooool, whereas the TIE Bomber is... well... a different kind of cool. Real world fighters often have very similar abilities and statistics to other current issue aircraft, with the wide variety of ships we now have available to XWM players, I think it will be harder and harder to make each ship totally unique... and I'm OK with that!

And that is a bad way to design a game. Fluff only gets you so far. You have to make ships distinctive. Evade alone isn't going to do it.