100pts reread it...2 refits (-4 total)

Meh, I think it's just due to people being lazy and not wanting to outfly the Phantoms. They just want the easy button.

Also, the OP said "most competitive that isn't..." Not, "is there anything that is as competitive". What you are saying is that there isn't a single list out there that has any chance at all of beating a Fat Han or Phantom list. I disagree.

i dare say that there currently doesnt exist any list that does not contain a Falcon or ACD Phantom that can reliably take out both Falcon and ACD Phantom based lists

it's not even a scissor paper stone game anymore, more like a Either Or

You wouldn't want a list that could reliably beat both. You'd want one that has a shot at beating both, and there are plenty.

i dare say that there currently doesnt exist any list that does not contain a Falcon or ACD Phantom that can reliably take out both Falcon and ACD Phantom based lists

it's not even a scissor paper stone game anymore, more like a Either Or

I disagree. I've got a list that I've not lost with and I've beaten Phantoms and Fat Hans with. True that I've not gone to tournaments, but I believe that there are lists out there. In fact, Nova Squadron Radio (podcast) just put out an episode I'm in the middle of listening to that believes it's doable.

EDIT: I do agree with TastetheRainbow in that there isn't a list that wins 100% of the time vs. anything. Phantoms can beat Fat Hans and such. So, take things with a grain of salt.

EDIT: I do agree with TastetheRainbow in that there isn't a list that wins 100% of the time vs. anything.

If there was, the competitive game is done for.

I disagree. I've got a list that I've not lost with and I've beaten Phantoms and Fat Hans with. True that I've not gone to tournaments, but I believe that there are lists out there. In fact, Nova Squadron Radio (podcast) just put out an episode I'm in the middle of listening to that believes it's doable.

Yeah, after seeing a YYYX list win a tournament last weekend taking down at least one Phantom list and a double YT1300 list as well in the process, I'm inclined to disagree as well.

Too many people put too much stock in what is perceived to be the meta, instead of, y'know, giving things a try and playing the game.

Yeah, after seeing a YYYX list win a tournament last weekend taking down at least one Phantom list and a double YT1300 list as well in the process, I'm inclined to disagree as well.

Nah, you have to be imaging things... There's no way Wave 1 ships could possibly when against something as broken as a Phantom and a YT-1300... If it really did happen, either they were bad lists or else the person playing them was blind or something.

Because again, winning against the current unbeatable lists just isn't possible. It defies the laws of the universe.

Hopefully the sarcasm was clear.

If there is a perceived meta you at least need to be aware and have an answer. That being said I think swarm is the third option. I have been having a lot of luck with XBBZY with ion. Tried Roark but too fragile.

I disagree. I've got a list that I've not lost with and I've beaten Phantoms and Fat Hans with. [...]

What is the list?

Ive played other games competitvely forbaround 10 yrs, the one thing that seems to keep happining in all of them is this. After most major turnys people go to the internet and copy the winning list. Then what tends to happen is this list becomes the top "meta". This happens for two resons sheer numbers of people playing said list, and the fact the best players are probly playing it as well. While this looks good on paper the winners are noaly the top players with the most experance with the list. That is until some one comes up with a way to beat the current list consintly then it becomes the new meta and the cycle begaons again.

That being said find something you enjoy learn all the ends and outs of it and HAVE FUN.

funny. last i recalled, the winning list was a Phantom, Soontir and SHUTTLE list. With Captain YORR.

I don't think that qualifies as a Phantom + filler ties list.

I disagree. I've got a list that I've not lost with and I've beaten Phantoms and Fat Hans with. [...]

What is the list?

Feel like I've been posting it so much. Still needs fine tuning.

Col Vessery w/VI

Shuttle w/ Gunner, FCS, and Engine Upgrade

Turr Phenir w/ shield and PTL