I think there is some confusion about between strategies and customization. Yes, the Imperial fighters do have a severe lack of customization options, since a lot of their craft have little to no upgrade options. That does not mean there are different strategies to be used. One ship doesn't define your whole squad, imo. It is a very strong point of debate when the Gencon top 8 is discussed.

Now that I can agree with. We've been talking on these boards for awhile about the lack of strategic discourse and tend to revert back to list building and critique. I'd love to see more tactics and strategies discussed now that the boards are a bit more civil again.

I think the block I run into is how much of the game is reactive and adaptive? I think that varies by ship and list. For example: arc dodging isn't a strategy...is it just a tactic? Or is it a maneuver? Every ship tries to arc dodge to some extent (a few exceptions here and there) but its not your list's goal or win condition.

See, can't even do that simple definition now. Might have been the 12 hour back to back days with 30+ family meetings. But hat common terminology doesn't exist here yet. Who wants to be brave (and who has the time) to start up a new thread? I'll participate.

Now that I can agree with. We've been talking on these boards for awhile about the lack of strategic discourse and tend to revert back to list building and critique. I'd love to see more tactics and strategies discussed now that the boards are a bit more civil again.

I think the block I run into is how much of the game is reactive and adaptive? I think that varies by ship and list. For example: arc dodging isn't a strategy...is it just a tactic? Or is it a maneuver? Every ship tries to arc dodge to some extent (a few exceptions here and there) but its not your list's goal or win condition.

See, can't even do that simple definition now. Might have been the 12 hour back to back days with 30+ family meetings. But hat common terminology doesn't exist here yet. Who wants to be brave (and who has the time) to start up a new thread? I'll participate.

I'll participate too.

Arc Dodging to me requires a degree of certainty in the ability to utilize mobility actions to move a ship over the threshold of being shot at to not being shot at by enough ships to do less damage.

Although you can arc dodge with a ship with no mobility options and low PS, many times its via a different tactic than true arc dodging. ex a flanking x wing that no ship is really trying to shoot at is not arc dodging.

Maneuvering Col. Vessery around on a board without using his barrel roll and happening to not be most arcs is likely simply good flying, close proximity use of blocking or something else.

Making a "juke" and flying into the spot that your opponent did not expect you to go isn't truly an arc dodge either. Although, that is a contributing factor to trying to arc dodge well.

Especially so when you "juke" to a spot that leaves you no shot anyway. That's hardly a juke. That's a return to equal or worse states, depending on if the opponent is behind you.

You keep saying that Echo or Whisper should burn down X-wings with little effort and that they should have an advantage. Even with VI and ACD, Echo and Whisper only advance to PS8 and 9, respectively. They are deployed before all of the X-wings allowing me to have preference on where I deploy. They move before high PS X-wings, which is where they lose their maneuvering advantage. Correctly guessing where the X-wings will go after you allowing the Xwings to control the closure rate. I can creep and keep you far enough out so your de cloak will most likely be sitting within range and arc of my guys. I will more than likely be able to guess where you plan on decloaking because you still have to use the front edge or the sides of your base. Keeping the Phantom in arc by moving second is very, very easy. Then when firing, 3 X's throwing Nine total dice with focus, 1 predator reroll, a stress from R3-A2 and Wedge's ability to reduce agility dice will more than likely melt the Phantom. Only blanks would save the Phantom which is relatively rare. He flew Echo, which regardless of PS, was still shooting after all of my list.

I will say that the named Phantoms do best against lower PS pilots because they have the ability to see where their opponent has parked and basically dance around that. The role is reversed when the Phantom moves first. All I have to do is slowly turn in a direction and I can keep the majority of your maneuvers where your final position could have arc on me in my own arc. Keeping the speed of closure in check with my higher PS allows me to do that. It is this exact PS bid that keeps the Sigma Squadron Pilots off of tables and why they are not really seen competitively.

Aside from all that stuff, the original post was not him saying explicitly that the Imperials suck, instead he was talking about how he has been having a difficult time getting the same winning results that he had running Rebel lists. It was not one of those "sky is falling" threads, but I can see how it ended up sounding that way.

Deploy across from me. I'm not going straight at you.

Slow play all you like. Any decent phantom squad will usually have ties and or shuttles or whatever.

Yes the xwings have the advantage of moving first, but it's not hard to get behind them. Phantoms move faster, and if I'm really worried, I just won't decloak and lead you on a wild goose chase while the rest of my squad picks away.

Plus xwings cannot turn around so easily

As for the generics it's more than just there ps.

They don't get the pilot abilities.

They don't have the ep upgrade slot

And yes they are low PS so almost everything shoots before them, but they can still find their way in as a flanker. For 25 pts you have a ship with one less hp, and 1 extra attack dice vs a rookie pilot, and it can move faster, and it can have 2-4 attack dice

I myself like to use ties

So go ahead slow play it. My ties will be in your way blocking and action deny you before you get a good shot on whisper or echo.

According to your theory I should probably also lose to fat Han which I've beaten on numerous occasions. But that's not what we are talking about.

But if you just want to sit back and do a one straight,banks,and turns until my phantom is getting close, I'll be sure to have the rest of my squad ahead of it.

I don't care if I lose a tie or two in the process because that's what They are there for.

Sure ps helps, but three xwings cannot move like a Phantom.

You basically have to guess where it's going to go.

Which can also bring up another fact that asteroid placement plays a huge part in.

So you have to guess, and also have a clear path through the asteroids, and my other ships and if you guess wrong echo, or Whisper is going to hurt.

You also only have three ships, as soon as you lose one your down 33% of your squad.

You also have your whole squad worth a hundred points chasing one of my ships that's what? 30-40? That's great.

Howlrunner and three academies is not to be underestimated

Echo I actually like more than Whisper.the fact that Echo can almost move backwards and bus her time can be a huge factor.

I'm sorry but despite how you put it, I still think your buddy could have done better.

Does that mean he's a bad player? No. But he obviously doesn't know how to deal with three xwings.

Also unlike the phantom. Your basically locked in once you set your dial. Unlike the phantom who can change their direction if he decides to-do something else.

Point being that xwings are not that maneuverable. I mean it's not to hard to look at the board and have a pretty good idea where they are going to go.

As for your friend, his very first sentence was basically saying Imps can't beat rebels, when the true statement is, he can't beat rebels when flying Imps.

As others pointed out the Imps are very nasty to fly against, and there is no unbalanced issues there at all

you cant take interceptors without ptl, you can take phantoms without veteran instincts, ACD, and a crew member. you cant take ANY advanced, bombers are sub optimal without ordnance or a friend that has an HLC, you cant take ties unless you take a bunch.... it goes on and on.

And you think rebels are any different? There are plenty of stupid choices to make for rebels that are the equivalent of your phantom setup, but you don't see people whining about it. They just don't take the stupid choices. I suggest doing the same.

Yeah, rebels are different. I don't inmediately have to go digging for auto-include upgrades, except for one ship, and it's role is very obviously support. In fact, you can usually tinker your way into several different styles of list without changing a ship in most rebel lists. How many unique, viable lists can you squeeze out of a phantom? The answer is capped at 2, since there are two pilots and they both run the exact same set up. How many unique strategies can you run in a tie?

A lot of my issue may come from a lack of ships. I mentioned a few pages back that the defender and shuttle are more my speed, and I just don't own them.

There only 2 lists for phantom?

I have about a half dozen that all do extremely well.

Im sorry but your whole look on the imperial ships is dead wrong

It's no wonder you suck at them

I see lots of ships on Rebs side that could say the same thing.

Biggs R2-D2 how many times I see tha?

Han and 3p0 falcon title.

Ywing with ion Turret.

Hwk with ion Turret.

Bwing with advanced sensors.

Awing with ptl.

I can go on and on.

I think you have a poor understanding and until you realize that, your just going to keep losing

A lot of people on these boards play this game and analyze it more than you or I.just because you feel that way doesn't make it true.

I have probably 30+ imperial squad saved on my phone and none are the same.

Also with rebels there ships are more expensive when compared to imperial. So you see a lot of the same typical 3-4 ship builds.

Where as Imps if they decide to go 3_4 ships there is Plenty of options, and in a a lot of cases you have 4-7 ship builds.

What matters is having fun,

The list you played with was a terrible list.

Enhance scopes on echo? How does that even make sense?

Here's one for us that I've seen do well and not your typical phantom build.

Echo

Ptl

Advance sensors

Gunner.

How about buzz saw whisper?

I'v think when the majority of experienced players here say your wrong, then why don't you just accept the fact that maybe your whole perception on the two factions is one sided

you cant take interceptors without ptl, you can take phantoms without veteran instincts, ACD, and a crew member. you cant take ANY advanced, bombers are sub optimal without ordnance or a friend that has an HLC, you cant take ties unless you take a bunch.... it goes on and on.

And you think rebels are any different? There are plenty of stupid choices to make for rebels that are the equivalent of your phantom setup, but you don't see people whining about it. They just don't take the stupid choices. I suggest doing the same.

Yeah, rebels are different. I don't inmediately have to go digging for auto-include upgrades, except for one ship, and it's role is very obviously support. In fact, you can usually tinker your way into several different styles of list without changing a ship in most rebel lists. How many unique, viable lists can you squeeze out of a phantom? The answer is capped at 2, since there are two pilots and they both run the exact same set up. How many unique strategies can you run in a tie?

A lot of my issue may come from a lack of ships. I mentioned a few pages back that the defender and shuttle are more my speed, and I just don't own them.

Man I really don't think you quite understand this game

There only 2 lists for phantom?

I have about a half dozen that all do extremely well.

Im sorry but your whole look on the imperial ships is dead wrong

It's no wonder you suck at them

I see lots of ships on Rebs side that could say the same thing.

Biggs R2-D2 how many times I see tha?

Han and 3p0 falcon title.

Ywing with ion Turret.

Hwk with ion Turret.

I can go on and on.

I think you have a poor understanding and until you realize that, your just going to keep losing

Of Choices of what to put on a wholly competitive Phantom, I'd say there are 2.5 options:

You take Whisper. (Or, you're really good with Echo.)

VI ACD RC

VI ACD Gunner FCS

VI ACD (This one is really not recommended, as Rebel Captive is very very very cost effective and a great counter to many Whisper counters.)

There are tons of choices for list around the Phantom, I can think up about 5 competitive ideas.

The first option is cheaper and can be placed into most lists. Its self sufficient.

The second option is much harder as it dies to stress and other Rebel Captive Phantoms.

Two Phantoms Backstabber

Phantom + Decimator

Nationals List

Whisper 5 tie

Whisper 4 tie

DPS Defender Phantom Shuttle variants: of which I have 5.

Ex. Whisper Delta Doomshuttle

Whisper Vessery Doomshuttle

Echo Vessery Buzzsawshuttle

Whisper DeltaHLC FCSshuttle

For funzies: "Whisper" (32)

I disagree, it's a very good game, but I think Donkey Kong is the best game ever.

Echo doesn't need VI. At PS 8, you'll be beat by all the players that entered the PS race so you'll move/shoot after anyway; I prefer to take Outmaneuver. I'll usually take Intelligence Agent as a crew so I can still look at the dial of the higher PS ship I want to dodge. Sometimes, I'll take Advanced Sensor so I can barrel Roll before decloaking to add even more shenanigans to it.

As for ACD, I think it's a must on her. Not because ACD is an auto-include on Phantom, but because Echo special ability is centered around her decloaking and ACD allow me to maximize and do it every turn. If I don't plan on decloaking every turn, I'll take another Phantom.

Yes, more often than not, you'll be better to take ACD on your named Phantom and there is other case of must take upgrades, but I don't see the problem with that. From the same account, Outrider title+HLC will be an ''auto-include'' on Dash. You will be able to fly without it, but it will be an entirely different ship and in no way the beast it can be with a turreted HLC. There are some units that are meant for a particular synergy, it's part of the game and what makes them shine.

Whisper, Soontir and Turr vs Wes, Luke and Wedge comes down to pilot skill. The Imperials having the edge on pure ship type.

I have never lost to a 3X build with 3 high maneuverer Imperial ships.

Sub in Vader for Whisper if you want a PS11 hunter with VI. Put Prockets on him and let him go to town. You can do the same with Soontir if you don't mind losing PtL, which IS not, as many people say, defacto on him.

Turrets are the only thing to fear with the high PS Ints. ask your friend for a rematch and try this. 99pts for the chance to choose initiative.

Darth Vader (37)

Proton Rockets, Veteran Instincts, Engine Upgrade

Soontir Fel (31)

Veteran Instincts, Hull Upgrade

Turr Phennir (31)

Royal Guard TIE, Veteran Instincts, Hull Upgrade, Targeting Computer

Do not be afraid of the K-turn with your Ints, especially Soontir in this set up as the stress will give him a focus, which is gold at R1 behind the enemy.

Vader is just awesome like this and Turr can easily stay at R1 and doge arc after he shoots. If you are facing shots from the enemy, use focus to defend unless you have a kill shot first.

Funny (sort of) thing is this is kind of squadron I want to try for months.

And I cannot, becouse Falcon (engine) and Interceptor (pilots) are out of stock.

Interceptor was already out of stock 7 months ago, when I started to collect and play this game.

It still is.

I don't disagree that there are slightly more customization options on the rebels (and will be on S+V) for each individual ship due to droids and, for S+V, the illicit upgrade. It's worth pointing out that two of the rebel ships that have droid options don't see much play (a couple of named X-Wings, Horn being the exception and that there are very often "ideal" choices for them as well).

However, I think some people are glossing over what the Empire does get, both in terms of customization and instead of it.

The key one for me is action bars: In general, while the imperials aren't able to customize some of their basic ships (or at least in the manner people would like), they usually have a much wider choice of actions than their rebel counterparts, usually in the form of the barrel roll that, if the rebels want, takes up their best card slot (EPT) and takes a heavy cost (2 pts and a stress), while the action that Imperial ships don't usually have access to, TL, is cheap and takes up a less-used slot (2 point modification).

Other odds and ends:

1. RGT allows double modifications. This upgrade slot is available to all ships and so any modification that comes out could potentially be useful.

2. The most customizable ship in the game in the form of the shuttle.

3. The cheapest EPT slot available (the slot with the most options) in a 14 point BSP

4. The most flexible ordnance carrier in the game in the bomber. There's nothing like it in the rebel lists as they tend to be limited to one option or one option type (though the Y-Wing will get a second).

5. Soon to have the most customizable turret in the game in the Decimator.

Really I think most of the complaints come from not having the "Big new shiny" effect for Imperials.

Or in other words this year:

The Rebels got:

2 Huge ships, with updated X-wings and new crew options

Wave 4

Rebel Aces, with updated B-Wing and A-Wing options

Wave 5 (Pending, except for those lucky few who got to go to Gencon)

Most Wanted, a few Y-wing bonuses

The Imperials got:

Imperial Aces, which updated the Interceptors but has lost it's new shiny feel

Wave 4

Wave 5

The Rebels just got a lot of new toys this year which gives them more options and have had a consecutive release dates which diverted attention from the Imp toys. So at some point the Imps will get new toys and then the complaining can shift factions, or maybe the Scum will be singled out.

you cant take interceptors without ptl, you can take phantoms without veteran instincts, ACD, and a crew member. you cant take ANY advanced, bombers are sub optimal without ordnance or a friend that has an HLC, you cant take ties unless you take a bunch.... it goes on and on.

Funny, I must have missed those stipulations in the rulebook...

you cant take interceptors without ptl, you can take phantoms without veteran instincts, ACD, and a crew member. you cant take ANY advanced, bombers are sub optimal without ordnance or a friend that has an HLC, you cant take ties unless you take a bunch.... it goes on and on.

Funny, I've never used PTL on my Interceptor builds (I've never used PTL at all). My phantoms have never used crew members. I've won with non-named TIE Advanced. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I'm not trying to invalidate your frustration. I just don't think that this statement is necessarily true.

To be fair, PTL and Interceptors go together like peas and carrots.

@nikk whyte: It seems that you really like to fly Phantoms and Interceptors. These are your favorite ships. It seems that the Rebel players in your area have found good counters to how you fly them. It seems you have two options:

1) Fly different ships. There is a wide variety of ships you can try out that are all viable. For one, if you are thinking about using a regular Tie Fighter, have you used Dark Curse? He does pretty well to stay alive.

2) Fly differently with the same ships. Are you talking tournament play? If no, then you have time to muck around and try to draw them out. Don't fly at them. Try to fly on the flanks and get around. Use Asteroids to your advantage. Do crazy manuevers like K-turn before they get in range as your other ships slink in the sides. Just do 1 sharp turns in your deployment zone until they get closer. Stupid things to make them come closer and let you get around them.

I like interceptors. I fly phantoms often enough, but liking them isn't something I would claim.

Probably should've bought a defender.

Personally, if your opponent is fond of staying at long range, use it to your advantage. I've found that two Concussion Missiles in a single round can either kill or cripple someone like Wedge. I know the interwebs doesn't approve of ordenance, but I've had great fun with it. I've won local tournaments with it.

Agreed on the subject of multiple phantom builds. Yes, ACD is autoinclude on Whisper & Echo, but I don't bother with it on the two generics.

A list I've been having success with:

Soontir / PTL / TC

Shadow / Gunner / FCS

Shadow / Gunner / FCS

At PS5, the phantoms outmaneuver a lot of ships that they come in contact with. For those that are PS6 & above, the idea is to engage at range three and take an evade action. As an alternative, you could drop the shadows to sigmas, and add a stygium particle accelerator... but the drop to PS3 does dramatically increase the number of ships that will move after you do.

@nikk whyte: It seems that you really like to fly Phantoms and Interceptors. These are your favorite ships. It seems that the Rebel players in your area have found good counters to how you fly them. It seems you have two options:

1) Fly different ships. There is a wide variety of ships you can try out that are all viable. For one, if you are thinking about using a regular Tie Fighter, have you used Dark Curse? He does pretty well to stay alive.

2) Fly differently with the same ships. Are you talking tournament play? If no, then you have time to muck around and try to draw them out. Don't fly at them. Try to fly on the flanks and get around. Use Asteroids to your advantage. Do crazy manuevers like K-turn before they get in range as your other ships slink in the sides. Just do 1 sharp turns in your deployment zone until they get closer. Stupid things to make them come closer and let you get around them.

He thinks there is only two builds you can do with them.

So to try something different he had some upgrades that had 0 benifit to what he was flying.

There are other options much better than what he chose.

Learn ro make something that works better, and not put upgrades that has 0 benifit on a ship, then come to forums to complain about it, and make statement that imperials are not as good or lack variety when comparing to rebels. Expect to get grilled about it

I cannot understand why anyone would but enhance scope paired with Stygium Particle a on echo. If he flies it like the way he chooses upgrades then it's no wonder he lost.

Nothing wrong with trying new things, but somethings just don't go with others

His whole perspective of the imperials is rather one sides.

Only two builds that involves phantoms?

Imperials ships have to have specific upgrades to be good?

I mean his comments about imperials can also be put towards the rebels.

As I said, how often do we see ywingout ion turrets?

Han without 3p0

Luke without r2d2

Bwing without advance sensors.

Same thing, but apparently it's only Imps that have auto upgrades.

Which is why I say he has a piss poor perspective.

The rebels also can't fit ad many ships in a a build and be as effective as imperials.

Z95 swarm vs tie swarm for example

Howlrunner is what makese swarm so effective.

The imperials can have more ships in a variety of builds imo because a lot of their ships are cheaper than rebels, which makes them have more options.

Maybe? Or maybe not, but that my opinion on that matter

you cant take interceptors without ptl, you can take phantoms without veteran instincts, ACD, and a crew member. you cant take ANY advanced, bombers are sub optimal without ordnance or a friend that has an HLC, you cant take ties unless you take a bunch.... it goes on and on.

I disagree with this statement. I like to fly Vader with Concussion Missiles. I've won Wave 3 tournaments with him. I haven't tried anything lately. I did fly him last night to first bad and good effect (it had been a while and I sucked first game).

You can take Bombers iwth ordnance. I know the internet says it's bad, but I've had great success w/ Vader and a Bomber both using Concussion Missiles to cripple or take out Rebel ships. The Proximity Mine is also very viable with the latest FAQ.

You also can take Tie Fighters without flying them in formation. There are ways other than a giant brick with Howlrunner in the middle. I've done it. Throwing in one or two in a list isn't a bad thing. Quite the contrary. I forget how many times games have come down to my lone Academy vs. whoever and they just can't get a bead on me (without turreted weapons). Also, you can take some of the named ones just to throw in. Dark Curse is great. Night Beast is also good. Backstabber is great for the flanks alone. Take a Black Squadie with an EPT like Outmanuever or Predator.

If you want to try something fun, try a scimatar bomber with an assault missile, followed by Vader with a proton rocket and squad leader.

Round 1: bomber focuses, Vader, at the end of the round, gives him the target lock that he needs against the target of his choice. Everyone fires on the bomber on the first round, but the odds of it dying right off the bat are low if you managed to stay at range 3. Assault missile is fired, the bomber most likely will hit and did its job of firing its ordinance and luring enemy fire to it.

Round 2: lines close in, Vader is now free to use his proton rocket at range 1. Fun times...

That kind of squad is best completed with other units that can take advantage of a PS9 squad leader boost, like backstabber + an interceptor and such.

@nikk whyte: It seems that you really like to fly Phantoms and Interceptors. These are your favorite ships. It seems that the Rebel players in your area have found good counters to how you fly them. It seems you have two options:

1) Fly different ships. There is a wide variety of ships you can try out that are all viable. For one, if you are thinking about using a regular Tie Fighter, have you used Dark Curse? He does pretty well to stay alive.

2) Fly differently with the same ships. Are you talking tournament play? If no, then you have time to muck around and try to draw them out. Don't fly at them. Try to fly on the flanks and get around. Use Asteroids to your advantage. Do crazy manuevers like K-turn before they get in range as your other ships slink in the sides. Just do 1 sharp turns in your deployment zone until they get closer. Stupid things to make them come closer and let you get around them.

Well I think the real problem is his is his perspective.

He thinks there is only two builds you can do with them.

So to try something different he had some upgrades that had 0 benifit to what he was flying.

There are other options much better than what he chose.

Learn ro make something that works better, and not put upgrades that has 0 benifit on a ship, then come to forums to complain about it, and make statement that imperials are not as good or lack variety when comparing to rebels. Expect to get grilled about it

I cannot understand why anyone would but enhance scope paired with Stygium Particle a on echo. If he flies it like the way he chooses upgrades then it's no wonder he lost.

Nothing wrong with trying new things, but somethings just don't go with others

His whole perspective of the imperials is rather one sides.

Only two builds that involves phantoms?

Imperials ships have to have specific upgrades to be good?

I mean his comments about imperials can also be put towards the rebels.

As I said, how often do we see ywingout ion turrets?

Han without 3p0

Luke without r2d2

Bwing without advance sensors.

Same thing, but apparently it's only Imps that have auto upgrades.

Which is why I say he has a piss poor perspective.

The rebels also can't fit ad many ships in a a build and be as effective as imperials.

Z95 swarm vs tie swarm for example

Howlrunner is what makese swarm so effective.

The imperials can have more ships in a variety of builds imo because a lot of their ships are cheaper than rebels, which makes them have more options.

Maybe? Or maybe not, but that my opinion on that matter

I have literally neve flown 3po with han. Never flown r2d2 and Luke either. Only just started using advanced sensors on the b-wing, and that was after 6 or 7 other builds that didn't include the advanced sensors. Some were successful. It's not an auto include. That's the difference. Luke can be good naked. Most x wings can. Han can be just as good naked. I don't put much on him since he's gonna have a big target on his back.

In fact, I've only ever seen 3PO ONE time. And the guy had no idea how it worked. Kept guessing the amount of dice he was rolling.

Just look at the Defender. There is a thread about whether or not you need HLC on it or not. I don't think you need it. I'm not saying it's bad. It's a choice.

You can fly Interceptors without Push The Limit. You just can't pull off those amazing backwards flip moves that gets you out of firing arcs. Doesn't mean that they are bad options. Maybe go with some of the generic guys. They will die easier, but I don't think they are useless.

Or...look at Y-wings. The Ion Turret is pretty solid a "must have" on those and I'm really not into "must haves".

You also can't really compare any of those things with the Tie Bomber. I mean....it's designed to be a Tie Fighter with ordenance. It's an ordenance firing platform. You can't really think of it without it.

If your real issue is that Rebels have options that they can, but don't have to take, then yeah. That's what Rebels are about. Astromechs, torpedoes, systems, etc. There are just a lot of Imperial ships that don't even have options to take.

Just look at the Defender. There is a thread about whether or not you need HLC on it or not. I don't think you need it. I'm not saying it's bad. It's a choice.

You can fly Interceptors without Push The Limit. You just can't pull off those amazing backwards flip moves that gets you out of firing arcs. Doesn't mean that they are bad options. Maybe go with some of the generic guys. They will die easier, but I don't think they are useless.

Or...look at Y-wings. The Ion Turret is pretty solid a "must have" on those and I'm really not into "must haves".

You also can't really compare any of those things with the Tie Bomber. I mean....it's designed to be a Tie Fighter with ordenance. It's an ordenance firing platform. You can't really think of it without it.

If your real issue is that Rebels have options that they can, but don't have to take, then yeah. That's what Rebels are about. Astromechs, torpedoes, systems, etc. There are just a lot of Imperial ships that don't even have options to take.

Must haves are a question of efficiency. If you play and don't care about that, then you can do anything. If you do, then there are logical rules to follow unless some stronger reason has trumped it instead, and there are very few exceptions.

As I stated in the Defender thread, HLC imo is completely unneccessary. The question of increasing power on the Defender should only be used in considering what role that increase in power has. Do you need it to quickly eliminate a large thread? Falcon? How many points can you really afford?

I told them Proton Rockets. Almost never do I see the 7 points of HLC coming into your favor. Mostly cuz it costs 4 points on a pretty expensive ship in 100 pts and also 4 dice F still isn't that good damage.

You should never run a non Ps1 or PS3 int without PTL. Maybe one choice is Saber with Wingman.

You lose too much defense from not having tokens and arc dodging. Becomes cost inefficient.

PS1 and PS3 Ints are about overcosted by 1 point ish for what they have. Movement options are less cost-effective at lower PS. The increase in your need to fly-compensate becomes a higher value.

I don't say this out of theory. I've played a bunch of lists for fun with different generic ints and different load outs. Go try it yourself. TONS OF FUN. but terrible efficacy. I get eaten alive even by total newbs, and I know I'm not THAT bad of a scrub.

Tie Bomber could really use some help. Very few cost effective apporaches to that craft I think. And the percentage of use says the same thing. If someone has some ideas on flying, I could really benefit. Love them.

Currently, I'd never take a Y or HWK without the turret. You lose too much opportunity there. That's why the A4 title for the Y is a great idea. Fixes a problem of damage potential and creates a new role and new way to fly the ship. Amazing choice and design. Kudos design team (though, we all expected it to be honest.)

Rebels have good options for lists. Imperials are more restrictive, so you have to think more about function of WHY you want an upgrade. versus taking the most upgrades. that 100 limit is your friend. it makes you think better. it makes you a better person.

@nikk whyte: It seems that you really like to fly Phantoms and Interceptors. These are your favorite ships. It seems that the Rebel players in your area have found good counters to how you fly them. It seems you have two options:

1) Fly different ships. There is a wide variety of ships you can try out that are all viable. For one, if you are thinking about using a regular Tie Fighter, have you used Dark Curse? He does pretty well to stay alive.

2) Fly differently with the same ships. Are you talking tournament play? If no, then you have time to muck around and try to draw them out. Don't fly at them. Try to fly on the flanks and get around. Use Asteroids to your advantage. Do crazy manuevers like K-turn before they get in range as your other ships slink in the sides. Just do 1 sharp turns in your deployment zone until they get closer. Stupid things to make them come closer and let you get around them.

Well I think the real problem is his is his perspective.

He thinks there is only two builds you can do with them.

So to try something different he had some upgrades that had 0 benifit to what he was flying.

There are other options much better than what he chose.

Learn ro make something that works better, and not put upgrades that has 0 benifit on a ship, then come to forums to complain about it, and make statement that imperials are not as good or lack variety when comparing to rebels. Expect to get grilled about it

I cannot understand why anyone would but enhance scope paired with Stygium Particle a on echo. If he flies it like the way he chooses upgrades then it's no wonder he lost.

Nothing wrong with trying new things, but somethings just don't go with others

His whole perspective of the imperials is rather one sides.

Only two builds that involves phantoms?

Imperials ships have to have specific upgrades to be good?

I mean his comments about imperials can also be put towards the rebels.

As I said, how often do we see ywingout ion turrets?

Han without 3p0

Luke without r2d2

Bwing without advance sensors.

Same thing, but apparently it's only Imps that have auto upgrades.

Which is why I say he has a piss poor perspective.

The rebels also can't fit ad many ships in a a build and be as effective as imperials.

Z95 swarm vs tie swarm for example

Howlrunner is what makese swarm so effective.

The imperials can have more ships in a variety of builds imo because a lot of their ships are cheaper than rebels, which makes them have more options.

Maybe? Or maybe not, but that my opinion on that matter

I have literally neve flown 3po with han. Never flown r2d2 and Luke either. Only just started using advanced sensors on the b-wing, and that was after 6 or 7 other builds that didn't include the advanced sensors. Some were successful. It's not an auto include. That's the difference. Luke can be good naked. Most x wings can. Han can be just as good naked. I don't put much on him since he's gonna have a big target on his back.

In fact, I've only ever seen 3PO ONE time. And the guy had no idea how it worked. Kept guessing the amount of dice he was rolling.

So all the tournaments that have used Han and 3po don't count?

The bwing with advance sensors don't count?

Tycho with ptl?

All because you decided not to use them?

Have you even looked at what was on a lot if the rebel lists in the nationals and other events?

What about dutch with ion Turret?

Kyle with Moldy crow, recon specialist?

They are all auto includes because for ship design, pt value, and they work well.

So you decide "I'm not going to put ions on a ywing, instead I'll use proton torpedoes"

So I guess that just means since you decide to do something different that most or a lot don't so, then that is not counted as "auto include"?

Sorry man but you have no argument.

Certain upgrades work extremely well on specific ships.

There is no auto include as how you put it.

Echo works best with advanced cloak cause of his her pilot ability.

Just like the falcon title works best with 3po on a falcon

Or

Push the limit on Tycho

Or

Ptl on a green squad

Or

Coran with fcs

Or...

What I hear is someone just trying to make excuses. Excuses as to why he cannot win with a specific faction. Maybe consider the fact that maybe it does not fit your playstyle or maybe your not very good and need practice.

If designing a list you seemed to think advanced scopes would work well on echo? Maybe start by working on you squad design. There is other upgrades that people have used outside of veteran instincts and advanced cloak and has worked for them.

"well I don't put upgrade X on ship A" that's fine, you don't but lots and lots of others do

Sorry man, but i don't think you quite grasp the concept of this game