I played 3 more games with it today at a lgs and still undefeated, still haven't even lost a ship yet, and most importantly still a ton of maxing your hit dice out. I took out a firespray on round 2 of combat before he got to fire again, so limiting him to only 1 shot.

Remember how you started this thread with "I'm a casual player, and I haven't played against top-tier lists"? Before you brag about how awesome your list is you should try testing it against good players with top-tier tournament lists. Because right now, based on your claim of never losing a ship, it seems like you're just beating up weaker "casual" players who never really had a chance and confusing that with real success.

I played 3 more games with it today at a lgs and still undefeated, still haven't even lost a ship yet, and most importantly still a ton of maxing your hit dice out. I took out a firespray on round 2 of combat before he got to fire again, so limiting him to only 1 shot.

Remember how you started this thread with "I'm a casual player, and I haven't played against top-tier lists"? Before you brag about how awesome your list is you should try testing it against good players with top-tier tournament lists. Because right now, based on your claim of never losing a ship, it seems like you're just beating up weaker "casual" players who never really had a chance and confusitng that with real success.

I can actualy agree with this statement here.

I know playing guys at my lgs are not very strong players. They are a good bunch of people, but new to the game

They don't browse the internet, or try to learn new ideas.

They play for fun and that's about it. Hardly flying in formation, and don't focus fire, etc etc

Playing guys at a lgs definitely does not mean anything, and honestly if they are like some of the ones I play here, I can see any list beat them

I don't know who the op is playing against, but this is not a list that I feel very competitive.

I also said I've played against a almost identical list and it died pretty fast, once Biggs was dead my opponent had even less dmg output.

I actually agree with iPeregrine on his last statement, sorry.

Like I said before though. If it's fun that's great, but I think the problem some people are having here is the op is bragging about this as though it's the cream of the crop, when is really a sub par list.

I think if you are having fun that is great, and all that matters, but it's definitely not a list that myself or anyone I play with would fear.

The problem with it is extremely low dmg output.

You have 2 xwings, and one is a meat shield that are your heavy hitters

You have a z95 that dies as easy as any other z95 with a weak attack and a hwk which has 1 attack dice and no crowd control such as an ion Turret.

Plus all 4 ships can now a days be easily outmaneuvered.

Ships that have a lot of synergy like this one are just that much weaker once its loses a ship or two

I mean killing biggs then either Cracken, or Garven leaves a hwk and one other ship.

The hwk is probably the weakest link in this list. Seeing a hwk coming at me with one or attack dice and the point value it's worth seems like an huge waste of points

Friend runs a related action passing list with Airen, E'than, Garvin and a rookie. Even out of Ks Airen passes a focus to Garvin who passes it on E'than. Fairly resilient list.

I played 3 more games with it today at a lgs and still undefeated, still haven't even lost a ship yet, and most importantly still a ton of maxing your hit dice out. I took out a firespray on round 2 of combat before he got to fire again, so limiting him to only 1 shot.

Remember how you started this thread with "I'm a casual player, and I haven't played against top-tier lists"? Before you brag about how awesome your list is you should try testing it against good players with top-tier tournament lists. Because right now, based on your claim of never losing a ship, it seems like you're just beating up weaker "casual" players who never really had a chance and confusing that with real success.

And where are your "top-tier" credentials that supposedly makes you an authority?

Wow, so much falling out on this thread, awesome! Hey, iPeregrine, I got a PM from klecser, he says your mum's fat. Also, Gadge, Krynn007 is telling everyone that you never wash your hands after going to the toilet.

Well now that's not true.

That's how rumors start lol

I played 3 more games with it today at a lgs and still undefeated, still haven't even lost a ship yet, and most importantly still a ton of maxing your hit dice out. I took out a firespray on round 2 of combat before he got to fire again, so limiting him to only 1 shot.

Remember how you started this thread with "I'm a casual player, and I haven't played against top-tier lists"? Before you brag about how awesome your list is you should try testing it against good players with top-tier tournament lists. Because right now, based on your claim of never losing a ship, it seems like you're just beating up weaker "casual" players who never really had a chance and confusing that with real success.

And where are your "top-tier" credentials that supposedly makes you an authority?

Where did he say he was referring to himself? Do you need to know how to speak German in order to recognise when somebody is speaking German? Furthermore he is not claiming to be an authority on anything, just stating the simple undeniable fact that bragging he has never lost a ship with no context doesn't automatically make the OP's list good like he claims. And this happens commonly where players claim to be casual yet brag about their winning record and then get offended when their anecdotal evidence isn't taken as law.

OK, here is my recommendation if you want all your ships to have target lock and focus. Lose the crow, too many points, and you can still only pass one focus per turn. Try Garvin and dutch with ion. each of them action passes. Then add Tarn mison, who basically gets TL for free, so he can focus with his action. then you can add a blue with FCS. Now you are not locked into formation so much and you have better manuverability, throw a lot more red dice every turn, and you have a 360 ion cannon. In my experinece, pure support ships like the hawk dont pull their weight in a 100 point game, but i really like the crow in a 125 or 150 point game. Have fun!

I played 3 more games with it today at a lgs and still undefeated, still haven't even lost a ship yet, and most importantly still a ton of maxing your hit dice out. I took out a firespray on round 2 of combat before he got to fire again, so limiting him to only 1 shot.

Remember how you started this thread with "I'm a casual player, and I haven't played against top-tier lists"? Before you brag about how awesome your list is you should try testing it against good players with top-tier tournament lists. Because right now, based on your claim of never losing a ship, it seems like you're just beating up weaker "casual" players who never really had a chance and confusing that with real success.

And where are your "top-tier" credentials that supposedly makes you an authority?

Where did he say he was referring to himself? Do you need to know how to speak German in order to recognise when somebody is speaking German? Furthermore he is not claiming to be an authority on anything, just stating the simple undeniable fact that bragging he has never lost a ship with no context doesn't automatically make the OP's list good like he claims. And this happens commonly where players claim to be casual yet brag about their winning record and then get offended when their anecdotal evidence isn't taken as law.

And what also commonly happens on these forums are people that come in and crap on people's ideas, speaking as some kind of authority, because it doesn't match the latest and greatest popular lists, when in reality those people aren't necessarily top-tier players, nor have played with the list that is being proposed. The OP speaks from experiences he's had playing, which is more actual experience than what people have come forward with so far.

You may not need to speak German to understand when someone is speaking German, but you need to know German to understand what the heck they are saying, and the finer nuances of what they are saying. So yes, if you are going to talk authoritatively about top-tier level play, you need to be a top-tier player to understand the finer nuances at that level, otherwise you're just spouting anecdotal evidence yourself.

You say that with such authority; are you sure you have the credentials for that?

See where I am going with this?

Seriously though, telling it like it is isn't crapping over people's ideas (people seem to forget that if you post on a forum you will always get both sides of the coin), and at the very least, it is adding to the discussion of the list unlike coming on here just to ask someone for their 'credentials'. I admit I know I am not adding much myself with this, but some things just have to be said.

Simple fact is if someone wants to talk casual then they shouldn't brag so much and tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong off the bat just because they kicked the crap out of the kids at the store. If someone does that and gets called, it is just the natural flow of things.

Lastly, please don't throw out the 'actual experience' 'argument'. Some guy I know won the lottery. I don't waste my money because the odds of winning are so small. By your logic because that guy had the actual experience of winning I should play because I must have a good chance if it happened to somebody else. Anomalies happen all the time; it doesn't chance what normally is or isn't though, and that is why we always take anecdotal evidence, especially given with no context to the particulars of the events, with as much salt as we can find.

And there I was promising myself I wouldn't get into it

What matters is if the people playing have fun.

What happens though is people play and have fun, but then come to the internet to talk about or brag, whatever about their list. Games or whatever.

It's just how some come off onto others.

The description buddy gave makes it sound like this is some god awful build to fly against. With the mentions of, peoples eyes rolling, sighing, and how irrertable they become.

When really it's a kind of list a lot of us know it's weakness right away. In all honesty it doesnt take a top tier player to see in this case

Then when it gets pointed out, (which even I said I've played a similar list and it did not go well for my opponent) which really is to be expected just about anywhere on a message board they get defensive and or try to argue the fact as if experience players don't know what they are talking about.

Some people will point out and offer constructive criticism and give suggestion on how to make it a stronger list. Which in that case they do have good intentions, but in some cases the op may take it as an attack on something which they thought was brilliant.

If it really, truly was, then you would be seeing this type of lists, which you don't.

The people he plays with obviously don't play as often, or study maneuvers, combos and etc as many others.

I mean he even makes mention of defeating a tie advanced which Noone uses unless they are just fooling around, or trying something off the wall usually. Hardly a ship that sees the table much, which in a way tells me he playing against inexperienced players who may not realize the ineffectiveness of the advanced

I guess for some they can't deal with synergy, flown in formation flying, probably because they are all over the board themselves.

Its a fun list for some I guess, but not one that would do well in a competitive setting. Which in a way from the op attitude that it sounds like he thinks it would. Just with the way he describes it being undefeated and all

I have had fun with the Kyle/Garvin chain. That said, this squad is extremely sub-optimal. If you are going to go with 3 attackers (which, since Kyle has no turret, you are playing a 3 ship offense game), you NEED the 3 Attack dice. So Airen has to go.

You say that with such authority; are you sure you have the credentials for that?

See where I am going with this?

Seriously though, telling it like it is isn't crapping over people's ideas (people seem to forget that if you post on a forum you will always get both sides of the coin), and at the very least, it is adding to the discussion of the list unlike coming on here just to ask someone for their 'credentials'. I admit I know I am not adding much myself with this, but some things just have to be said.

Simple fact is if someone wants to talk casual then they shouldn't brag so much and tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong off the bat just because they kicked the crap out of the kids at the store. If someone does that and gets called, it is just the natural flow of things.

Lastly, please don't throw out the 'actual experience' 'argument'. Some guy I know won the lottery. I don't waste my money because the odds of winning are so small. By your logic because that guy had the actual experience of winning I should play because I must have a good chance if it happened to somebody else. Anomalies happen all the time; it doesn't chance what normally is or isn't though, and that is why we always take anecdotal evidence, especially given with no context to the particulars of the events, with as much salt as we can find.

And there I was promising myself I wouldn't get into it

I think the issue is tone. "Honestly this is just a terrible list" or whatever the comment was was totally unnecessary, the guy could have made his points without the snide, dismissive (at least that's how it could come across) preface. Or maybe he couldn't, I dunno.

I have had fun with the Kyle/Garvin chain. That said, this squad is extremely sub-optimal. If you are going to go with 3 attackers (which, since Kyle has no turret, you are playing a 3 ship offense game), you NEED the 3 Attack dice. So Airen has to go.

I flew 3 ship build last night

2 A and a Ewing, and it went pretty bad for me

You say that with such authority; are you sure you have the credentials for that?

See where I am going with this?

Seriously though, telling it like it is isn't crapping over people's ideas (people seem to forget that if you post on a forum you will always get both sides of the coin), and at the very least, it is adding to the discussion of the list unlike coming on here just to ask someone for their 'credentials'. I admit I know I am not adding much myself with this, but some things just have to be said.

Simple fact is if someone wants to talk casual then they shouldn't brag so much and tell everyone who disagrees that they are wrong off the bat just because they kicked the crap out of the kids at the store. If someone does that and gets called, it is just the natural flow of things.

Lastly, please don't throw out the 'actual experience' 'argument'. Some guy I know won the lottery. I don't waste my money because the odds of winning are so small. By your logic because that guy had the actual experience of winning I should play because I must have a good chance if it happened to somebody else. Anomalies happen all the time; it doesn't chance what normally is or isn't though, and that is why we always take anecdotal evidence, especially given with no context to the particulars of the events, with as much salt as we can find.

And there I was promising myself I wouldn't get into it

I think the issue is tone. "Honestly this is just a terrible list" or whatever the comment was was totally unnecessary, the guy could have made his points without the snide, dismissive (at least that's how it could come across) preface. Or maybe he couldn't, I dunno.

But I do feel he is correct

You say that with such authority; are you sure you have the credentials for that?

See where I am going with this?

Yes, you're trying to jab me using bad logic.

Another bad analogy using faulty logic and putting words in my mouth. Good luck to you.

Well I know some people in real life that tell it how it is. Not the most popular, but they speak the truth, which I think buddy did.

But I do feel he is correct

Telling it how it is is a euphemism for being rude. There's a reason we have manners, a social contract. It makes life nicer. It might not be the most purely pragmatic way of arriving at the best squad, but what's that Star Wars phrase about flying a certain way?

Try to engage somebody in a reasonable conversation and they get upset and hyperbolically dismiss you off the bat, despite only coming to the thread to give out to somebody for being rude. Now I remember why I never used to post on this forum.

Well I know some people in real life that tell it how it is. Not the most popular, but they speak the truth, which I think buddy did.

But I do feel he is correct

Telling it how it is is a euphemism for being rude. There's a reason we have manners, a social contract. It makes life nicer. It might not be the most purely pragmatic way of arriving at the best squad, but what's that Star Wars phrase about flying a certain way?

But is it being rude?

It's as the saying goes, the truth hurts.

Seems like in todays day an age that if someone is blunt with the truth where as though maybe hurtful to some is rude.

People who tend to be blunt and speak their mind regardless if it's mean or not are to be. Considered rude.

I for one actually like some of these people I work with. I learned a lot over the years from people like this. I also learned not to take what they say to heart, but understand why they said what they said. I shrug it off, but at least I know the truth as to why, or what they are thinking

I think in some cases, but not all people need to not be so sensitive.

Especially if your going on the internet

Well I know some people in real life that tell it how it is. Not the most popular, but they speak the truth, which I think buddy did.

But I do feel he is correct

Telling it how it is is a euphemism for being rude. There's a reason we have manners, a social contract. It makes life nicer. It might not be the most purely pragmatic way of arriving at the best squad, but what's that Star Wars phrase about flying a certain way?

But is it being rude?

It's as the saying goes, the truth hurts.

Seems like in todays day an age that if someone is blunt with the truth where as though maybe hurtful to some is rude.

People who tend to be blunt and speak their mind regardless if it's mean or not are to be. Considered rude.

I for one actually like some of these people I work with. I learned a lot over the years from people like this. I also learned not to take what they say to heart, but understand why they said what they said. I shrug it off, but at least I know the truth as to why, or what they are thinking

I think in some cases, but not all people need to not be so sensitive.

Especially if your going on the internet

Yes, it's being rude.

You can say "tell it like it is" or "the truth hurts" or whatever idiom you want, it's still rude.

Yes, it's fine to be a "tell it like it is" kind of person, but when you say certain things to people that don't know you, it's rude. I wouldn't just go up to someone at the game store and say "your list is horrible". That's rude. If I said it to a friend that I've known for a while on the other-hand, we'd have that rapport and it would be fine.

It's not just about being sensitive, or hurt feeling, but trying to build a community. Isn't that what these forums are for? If it's about saying what you feel like with no regard to others, or brow-beating others, then I guess I'm mistaken.

While we're derailing the thread into a discussion of rudeness, I'd just like to point out the fact that there is a big difference between the following two ways to start a list discussion:

I'm a casual player and I've had a lot of fun with this list, what do you think?

and

This list is so overpowered that you'd better not use it unless you want to lose all of your friends.

Once you've thought about the difference between those openings consider how they might impact the reaction someone gets when they post a list.

Well I won't argue your points as they are valid.

But this is the internet after all, and unfortunately there are alway people out there that can be hurtful.

Sure you and I wouldn't walk into a store and say something like that to a complete stranger, but there are those out there that will.

I've dealt with these types of people a lot over the years, and I just shrug them off now.

Take a stop over to the destiny forums on bungies site. Omg lol. I think every low life and ignorant person on the internet is there. The things people say there is just despicable. I really wonder how they get through life if they were to act like that in public

Despite what others have said here, these forums and the community is truly a good place. Sure there a few bad apples, but that's to e expected on the internet unfortunately.

While we're derailing the thread into a discussion of rudeness, I'd just like to point out the fact that there is a big difference between the following two ways to start a list discussion:I'm a casual player and I've had a lot of fun with this list, what do you think?andThis list is so overpowered that you'd better not use it unless you want to lose all of your friends.Once you've thought about the difference between those openings consider how they might impact the reaction someone gets when they post a list.

Does come off very cocky. Expect some criticism

Yes no more discussion on rudeness

I'm game.

I do agree that the list though suffers from lack of dice. I ran a similar list before and it worked well enough, not top-tier but decently, but if you are running the HWK you need that turret to keep the attack consistent in such a list.

Ya, I really just don't see how the hwk could even be considered without a turret of some sort.

Flying alonside a z955