SableGryphon posted a YT-2400 list earlier today (I recommend reading the thread if you haven't had a chance to yet), and Osoroshii made a comment that I found interesting.

Until you fly against a Dash with the donuthole this may seem like a problem. I can assure you a ship will never be in the hole unless Dash allows him to be there.

And so I got to thinking, "how big is that donut hole, really?" And then I realized I could answer my own question. And I made this image.



The above image shows the superimposed firing arcs of a YT-2400 + HLC + Outrider after it has performed any maneuver on its dial, but before it has barrel rolled or boosted. The ship final ship positions have been removed for visual clutter purposes. This diagram assumes no blocking or other shenanigans. The lighter red band is Range 2, darker red is Range 3. Every move is given equal weight, so the more transparent an area is, the fewer the final positions that have arcs overlapping that area.
You can think of this as being the "danger zone" of the YT-2400 in the pictured position before it moves: if your maneuver lands you inside the red area, there's a good chance you'll be shot at.



...Anyways.

What we can learn from this is as follows:

• The YT-2400 dial does not erase the blind spot. A ship that lands with any part of it inside the completely clear stripe in front of the craft will not be a viable target, no matter what maneuver the YT-2400 has chosen. (Don't forget: this does not take into account the barrel roll.)
• The blind spot is in prime blocking territory. Somewhat less good news, I guess-- if the blind spot could be consistently occupied by a ship that can shoot without return fire, it would be great news for low and high PS pilots alike.
• The blind spot is smaller than you might initially think. Compared to the actual area that the YT-2400 can cover with its turret, that donut hole is in fact tiny. Considering that the YT-2400 has one of the most complete dials to date, the simple truth is that against a good flier, you're not going to land in it every time with a lot of the ships out there.
• The blind spot is larger than you might initially think. This diagram is misleading from the perspective that the true blind spot is the full Range 1 band around its final position; this diagram considers all final positions equally probable, so it shows them simultaneously. Ships that can modify their final positions with boost/barrel roll/decloak are going to be safer, as long as they can move after the YT-2400. This diagram is really more useful for the planning phase, and with ships that do not have movement-related actions.
• As a YT-2400 player: You should play expecting your opponent to know about the blind spot and try to compensate accordingly. E.g., fly Dash so that, as much as possible, asteroids end up in that blind spot. Deny the position that your enemies will want to take advantage of. 1 Forward forces a collision if they hit the spot just right, which is better than being shot at. Also, barrel rolls and boosts are going to be your friend. Even at lower PS than phantoms, because the YT-2400 has a better dial than phantoms. A decloak won't always work.
• As a YT-2400 opponent: Aim for that blind spot every time, I'd say, unless you know better due to figuring out your opponent or Intel Agent. With your low PS ships, you have a good chance of blocking it pretty well, and if you miss the block, you might not even be a valid target. With higher PS ships, aiming for this spot right in front of the ship is a good initial position to modify with boost/barrel roll; you'll likely be able to match the YT-2400's movements. Gotta watch out for the tricky slow moves forward from the YT-2400, though; but, even if you're blocked, it's better that than facing return fire from the HLC turret.

Some final comments:
-Staying at range 3 of the turret doesn't help anything due to no bonus evade dice, and with this dial, the turret covers a very solid chunk of the map.
-YT-2400 players want to consider EPTs or crew that passively allow dice modifications since blocking is going to be a very attractive option for their opponents; passive abilities soften the action denial blow. SableGryphon's choice was Lone Wolf, and I think he made a good one there.
-I was surprised to see a "permanent" blind spot existing at all, but finding out that it existed, I would have expected it to be larger.
-I have to reject Osoroshii's comment which I cited at the beginning: the Dash player may have no choice about a ship winding up in the donut hole, after all! Barrel rolls and boosts will help, a lot, but if the opponent has that too, well...



I'd like to hear what other people think on this subject, too.

Interesting visualization. I think simply that with Dash's ability to ignore obstacles, partnered with the innate speed and maneuver of the YT-2400, will make the "donut hole" a virtual non-factor. Even if it were an issue, cards such as Navigator and Stay On Target give you multiple ways to avoid it. It will be a legit centerpiece ship and trying hard to get into the donut hole will be a challenge for any ship that is not ultramobile AND can move after Dash, which is a small population.

This is a great post; I really just want to highlight this section.

The blind spot is larger than you might initially think. This diagram is misleading from the perspective that the true blind spot is the full Range 1 band around its final position; this diagram considers all final positions equally probable, so it shows them simultaneously. Ships that can modify their final positions with boost/barrel roll/decloak are going to be safer, as long as they can move after the YT-2400. This diagram is really more useful for the planning phase, and with ships that do not have movement-related actions.

Ships on lower PS than the Outrider are planning based on the probability space you outlined, which means your HLC is relatively powerful.

Ships with higher PS than the Outrider, though (as well as ships with Intelligence Agents) are planning based on your actual position, and within the limits of the player's spatial reasoning skills, they know exactly where that bubble is. Particularly if those ships are able to reposition with an action, that doughnut hole is indeed fairly large, and your HLC is correspondingly weaker.

So while PS isn't as critical for the Outrider as for the Phantom, it's going to be important. The higher your PS, the more you can afford the doughnut hole in the tactical sense, but the less you can afford it in a strategic sense (that is, in the squad-building phase of the game you might not want to add 5 points to a ship that's already made a large PS bid). It's a nicely balanced trade-off, but one to which players definitely ought to pay attention.

I wouldn't mind seeing a post-movement visual as well

If I understand right, you are defining the "donut hole" as the only safe places to hide after movement from a non barrel rolling, non boosting YT-2400 + HLC + Outrider.

Although your diagram is interesting, I don't find it very meaningful since you removed all range 1 that overlapped with range 2 or 3. I'd like to see what happens when you superposition range 1, 2, and 3 of all possible movement. Rather than giving us the "donut hole" I want to see what the probability of a spot being in range 1 after all possible movement is considered.

Good luck getting all your ships within Dash's range 1 hole if he is flying through asteroids and barrel rolling at PS9. And Dash at range 3 = 10 HPs behind 3 agility. Good luck killing that.

More playtesting required, but tactically and Mathwing, this is looking like the ACD + VI Phantom in wave 4. Unless you have a squad that can counter it, you can very quickly be in deep trouble.

Good luck getting all your ships within Dash's range 1 hole if he is flying through asteroids and barrel rolling at PS9. And Dash at range 3 = 10 HPs behind 3 agility. Good luck killing that.

More playtesting required, but tactically and Mathwing, this is looking like the ACD + VI Phantom in wave 4. Unless you have a squad that can counter it, you can very quickly be in deep trouble.

I'm not particularly worried about a Dash who uses VI and barrel roll and/or boost to position infallibly, since he'll be attacking (and defending) with naked dice; as Expose has taught all of us, four attack dice with no modification is less powerful than three dice with a focus token.

I think the ability to move more ala PTL Engine is superior to the ability to only take 1 movement action... Bear this in mind when playing Dash.

If I understand right, you are defining the "donut hole" as the only safe places to hide after movement from a non barrel rolling, non boosting YT-2400 + HLC + Outrider.

Although your diagram is interesting, I don't find it very meaningful since you removed all range 1 that overlapped with range 2 or 3. I'd like to see what happens when you superposition range 1, 2, and 3 of all possible movement. Rather than giving us the "donut hole" I want to see what the probability of a spot being in range 1 after all possible movement is considered.

When I made this diagram, I deleted all Range 1 bands, then I added layer after layer of each movement's Range 2/3 firing arcs.

(Starting positions were kept identical, of course)

So the information you're looking for isn't "lost" in the way I've done this, but it's not easily extractable, either. You can determine the probability of a spot being within Range 1 based on the opacity of the layers.

We could say this:

"Very opaque" means there's a lot of arcs that hit that spot; therefore, zero or near-zero chance of being at Range 1.

"Somewhat opaque" means there's a better probability of that spot being at Range 1.

"Somewhat transparent" means a high chance of being at Range 1.

"Completely transparent" is 100% chance of being at Range 1.

Problem is, I arbitrarily set each layer at 50% transparency, because that was a nice round number. But it adds up very quickly. So I don't know how good your eyes are, but I can only count about four firing arcs deep before I can't tell the difference between adding another one or not. If I made them more transparent, it would be easier to see the relative "safety" of the various areas inside the danger zone; but in any case, it's not really quantitative information anyways. This is all just to answer the question, "Qualitatively, what can we tell from the possible final results of a ship's movement?"

I wouldn't mind seeing a post-movement visual as well

Do you mean post-Boost/BR?

Or final ship positions?

The key thing is to stay in front of the outrider, don't chase it. Action denial is HUGE, mainly because of denial of barrel rolling, but doing any offensive and/or defensive actions as well. I put this image up in a thread I made last night showing how with a few ships (need at least 3, 4+ is ideal) you can pretty effectivly block the outrider each turn as well as keep most if not all your ships in range 1 to both be safe and hopefully get shots in.

So, ironically will high PS (Turr + VI, Soontir) interceptors be a decent counter to the Outrider? They'll be able to stick with the ship and stay in the donut hole. Tricky part will be getting to the hole (thats what she said).

If "Autothrusters" is an anti-turret defense card as has been speculated and it makes Interceptors more viable against YTs and Decimators, they absolutely may be viable. A turtled up Soontir is already fairly hard to kill, even for a YT, and especially if you have support.

While the diagram is interesting I believe it is a bit misleading. The misleading part is because an opponent's ship simply needs to have the closest point inside that hole to render the HLC inoperable. Touch the hole (ie be at R1) and you're safe even if 99.9% of your ship is outside of that zone.

While the diagram is interesting I believe it is a bit misleading. The misleading part is because an opponent's ship simply needs to have the closest point inside that hole to render the HLC inoperable. Touch the hole (ie be at R1) and you're safe even if 99.9% of your ship is outside of that zone.

And when I first saw it, I initially thought, "man, that blank space is smaller than the width of a ship...there is no guaranteed blind spot!" But that is incorrect, for the reason you pointed out.

I touch on this in my first bullet point, too, but maybe it also should have been mentioned under "that blind spot is larger than you think."

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

And Dash can fly through asteroids.

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

And Dash can fly through asteroids.

Which is why you sub in debris fields instead let's see him barrel roll with stress eheheh.

The key thing is to stay in front of the outrider, don't chase it. Action denial is HUGE, mainly because of denial of barrel rolling, but doing any offensive and/or defensive actions as well. I put this image up in a thread I made last night showing how with a few ships (need at least 3, 4+ is ideal) you can pretty effectivly block the outrider each turn as well as keep most if not all your ships in range 1 to both be safe and hopefully get shots in.

To expound on what you're saying, would you agree that getting in front of it with higher PS ships would be helpful? I think, ideally, you'd want to bookend the Outrider's PS. Position a high PS ship in a position that would be optimal for the Outrider to fly to, thereby forcing them to be denied the space (since you won't have moved out of their way by the time it's time for him to activate). I see this being a key danger in pushing Dash's PS too high, since he's a large base ship and much easier to block. However, if and when you manage to block him with a lower PS pilot, then I would argue that he suffers more from action denial than the average Rebel scum because he may rely on final position modification to get in the shot he wants (and barring upgrades, is still denied any form of offensive or defensive mitigation).

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

And Dash can fly through asteroids.

Which is why you sub in debris fields instead let's see him barrel roll with stress eheheh.

Dash's ability specifies obstacles, not asteroids, so he is unaffected by both.

Are people using the new or the old Barrel Roll for the Outrider.

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

And Dash can fly through asteroids.

Which is why you sub in debris fields instead let's see him barrel roll with stress eheheh.

Dash's ability specifies obstacles, not asteroids, so he is unaffected by both.

Successful use of Dash's ability even as far back as asteroid placement will set the best players apart in regards to keeping range 3+.

Are people using the new or the old Barrel Roll for the Outrider.

Right now there is only one way the outrider can barrel roll. Even with the template set sideways along the edge of a large base ship it moves a great distance. As always any squad can beat any other squad in X-Wing. Pilot errors and the dice can swing any match. We can only build to the averages and hope they hold up and minimize our mistakes. Play a dozen games with the Dashin-Donut on the field and you'll see it is one scary beats.

I can see all the exciting Dash vs. Dash tournament matches now! Yawn...

This was a helpful OP post. While, it has a number of issues that have been discussed, the great thing is that you've started a lot of discussion and helped people think about it. The ship is a serious threat and trying to stay at range 1 is going to be very difficult, but possible. Keep in mind though, that small ships don't boost and barrel roll as far as large ships, so having those two actions on a higher PS ship is not a panacea.

Further, I should point out that much of your focus was on blocking it and staying in front of it. Quite possible, for one round. It is nigh impossible to effectively block it two rounds in a row against a canny opponent. In the blocking layout your provided, you've got the Outrider blocked successfully for one turn. But it is unlikely to be killed in one turn. Indeed, if the outrider moves correctly, you only have two TIEs with shots on him. Yes, I know any 4 ships could be there, but the principle is the same.

Also, thanks for the shout out.

Dash is going to change the game, for the better. He deals well with a number of dominant lists, but there are a number of solid counters to him as well. Ion and stress builds can ruin his day, for instance. Not all the counters are obvious and more will be discovered.