Tonight I flew 5 Zs in a 26 person tournament at the FFG Game Center.
Cracken w/ Squad Leader, Cluster, and Munitions Failsafe
Blount with Deadeye and Ion Pulse
Tala with Cluster
2x Tala with Homing
Went 3-1, lost by 2pts to a 7 TIE swarm flown by one of the game developers. Took on both Phantoms and Falcons. Pretty fun list too!
I'm kinda wondering if someone really wanted to go anti-swarm… they could take Airen Cracken with cluster missiles, and Blount and several others all with Assault Missiles, or Concussion Missiles if it's a non-swarm list. I mean, if you can have Airen flanked by two Headhunters, and have both of them get a TL and focus (one action per ship per turn, plus two actions doled out for each of Airen's missile attacks), then I imagine that'd be a pretty hard hitting turn right there. Give Airen PtL and you could have three ships with focused ordnance in a single turn plus Blount's auto-hit.
I'm kinda wondering if someone really wanted to go anti-swarm… they could take Airen Cracken with cluster missiles, and Blount and several others all with Assault Missiles, or Concussion Missiles if it's a non-swarm list. I mean, if you can have Airen flanked by two Headhunters, and have both of them get a TL and focus (one action per ship per turn, plus two actions doled out for each of Airen's missile attacks), then I imagine that'd be a pretty hard hitting turn right there. Give Airen PtL and you could have three ships with focused ordnance in a single turn plus Blount's auto-hit.
Yeah, if I expected there to be a decent number of swarms I'd have brought Assault Missiles, either 2 or 3 of them. Since the local meta favors Falcons and Phantoms, I figured the Homings+Ion Pulse would be a better choice.
The squad I have ran with a majority of z95s is
3Z95's and 2 x-wing one rookie and biggs dark lighter for the other
1Z95 with assault missiles and munitions failsafe and biggs with shield upgrades.
It is usually a strong squad.
So I think a Z95 swarm can hold its own if you use LT Blount.
I ran this list quite effectively a while back:
Etahn Abaht + Advanced Sensors
Tala Squadron Pilot
Tala Squadron Pilot
Tala Squadron Pilot
Tala Squadron Pilot
Tala Squadron Pilot
Going up against tie swarms was quite effective as you shoot first, and the critical effects were quite devastating, often killing 1-2 (including Howlrunner) before return fire reducing their effectiveness (especially if you take out howlrunner).
If you really want you can drop the Talas to Bandits and drop the AdvSen and you have 8 points to play with for other upgrades etc.
I think black squadron tie with draw fire is basically a stapple on howlrunner builds nowadays.
MJ's various weighting schemes help filter the results, but you can't recover data that doesn't exist. The results tell us that almost no one is running Z-95 swarms successfully, but they don't tell us why. We have to look elsewhere to contextualize the results, and jpltanis' hypothesis--that the sheer expense of running the list is turning people away--is a very plausible explanation.
I don't buy that for a second. All of the people that are running C3PO mean that they're spending at least $60 for a single card upgrade. So if they're running a Fat Han list, that's at least $125 list, which is 50% more expensive than a Z swarm (at $80).
tiefantic said it best. Z swarms lack 1 important thing: Howlrunner.
FFG didn't want the Z-95 to be a swarm craft, they specifically state that this is not what it was intended for and designed it intending it to not be a swarmer: it's a filler craft and missile platform.
To be fair, how they intend for something to work, and how it is actually the most effective, are not always the same thing. Obviously the Z-95 is a great filler ship. Missiles are almost a complete non-factor, although this is slowly changing.
This thread is inspiring me to figure out how to best fly an 8Z swarm now!
Agreed in that it's hard to predict how something will be used because there are so many different combinations in this game. However, what I said is that they intended for it not to be a swarmer. Making a ship not be a better swarmer is far easier than making players use it as a missile platform. The TIE is better at that one role by design. That's not to say a Z swarm is useless, but that the TIE fighter has a slight edge and more options.
Also want to generally warn people away from the logical mistake that if a Zswarm beats a TIE swarm than the Zswarm is better. Not true. All that proves is a Zswarm beats a TIE swarm. That's one matchup out a significant number.
All of the people that are running C3PO mean that they're spending at least $60 for a single card upgrade.
Unless of course they wanted the Tantive to, y'know, play Epic and stuff. 
I ran my Z-swarm in a tournament, I didn't do great, but it was mostly due to my errors, not the list. Most of the losses I had were fairly close. I have also ran it a lot on Vassal. What I like about it is that I can generally deal with a phantom, and a "Fat" Han. In fact I have destroyed almost every Falcon I have come across. What I like about it is I am not bound to clumping together by having a Howlrunner-type upgrade. In the hands of a tournament level player, I think its a decent list. I have won more with that list than I have with other lists I've been using lately. In the hands of a good tournament player, it could be pretty good. The problem is there are better lists you can use, I think, not that Z-swarm sucks.
Z's with 3 Assault Missiles can destroy a tie swarm fairly easily, even if they split up you still got a lot of splash damage.
Etahn w/as many Z's as you can manage can be every bit as good as Howl, maybe better in some cases since he converts <hit> to <crit>. You can go with 5 bandits and a few upgrades for Etahn.
Z's make great filler, and let you take a list that would normally be 4 ships to 5 or in some cases 6.
I don't think a 7-8 Z swarm makes that much sense, so I only bought 6 of them. But the idea that they're not being played because they're expensive... No I don't buy that really.
Sure you could get 4 Ties by buying 2 core sets, needing only 4 more. But lets look at how much that really costs, using MSRP.
2 core sets = $80
4 Tie Fighters = $60
8 tie swarm = $140.
Sure you get other stuff with those 2 core sets, but you're still playing $140 for a 8 ship swarm, vs the $120 for 8 Z-95's.
To think, I've been told there is no "pay to play" in X-Wing. Then someone brings up shelling out $60 for the Tantive and C-3PO and the cost of the Z-95 swarm gets brought up. Now I'm sure there are ways to compare swarm cost but using sale prices you can often find:
TIE Swarm:
Core Set x3 @ $25 = $75
Sell X-Wings from core @ $10 = - $30
TIE Expansion x2 @ $10 = $20
Total = $65 (and includes all extra you need!)
Z-95 Swarm:
Z-95 Expansion x8 @ $10 = $80
You still need the extras to run it. While my "core set" example set the price @ $25 but sold out minis at $10 for a $5 profit that still doesn't get this down to the TIE cost.
I've been flying Roark w/ ion and Leia plus 6 Bandits.
It's a lot of ships, a lot of dice, a nice PS12 jump and once a game I can pull white K-turns like a Defender, generally on the initial furball.
I think Z-swarms are pretty good but largely untested, though I'm not sure why.
Edited by ChumbalayaTo think, I've been told there is no "pay to play" in X-Wing.
Of course you have to pay to play, that's true of every miniature game. Unless you're using free rules and legos or paper models I suppose. Now I'd debate if you have to pay to win, as in there's cars out there that cost a ton, that you must have to be competitive. Because that's been proven untrue.
Even the much vaunted 3-CPO only showed up in about half the top lists according to the data we have. So that's not a very good example of Pay to Win.
While my "core set" example set the price @ $25 but sold out minis at $10 for a $5 profit that still doesn't get this down to the TIE cost.
If you assume you can sell the X-Wings for $10 and make up part of the cost that way... Then you can also sell the Ties, for a extra $60, meaning those 8 Z-95's actually cost you $20. Letting you 4 more expansion packs @ $10 to fill in the stuff you're missing.
Which gives you 12 ships for the cost of the 8 Ties...
I think Z-swarms are pretty good but largely untested, though I'm not sure why.
Money investment which goes into just one gamestyle. If you get more than 5 Z's, you are already going to play something swarmy. The scum announcement haven't helped either, but i think Zwarms could get some traction over time.
I've been flying Roark w/ ion and Leia plus 6 Bandits.
It's a lot of ships, a lot of dice, a nice PS12 jump and once a game I can pull white K-turns like a Defender, generally on the initial furball.
I think Z-swarms are pretty good but largely untested, though I'm not sure why.
My list is pretty much the same. I considered bringing Leia but used Moldy Crow instead. I found that being able to build up focus in the first few turns to be very useful. But in every game there is a point where my swarm splits up to block then most K-turn on the next move. I think Leia would be great for this. The PS12 has been great, especially because of its range 3 and the many firing arcs I have to choose from.
I'm not a great player, I took a break of 6+ months until recently, but I have been doing OK with the Z swarm and Roark. So I think it has potential.
While my "core set" example set the price @ $25 but sold out minis at $10 for a $5 profit that still doesn't get this down to the TIE cost.
If you assume you can sell the X-Wings for $10 and make up part of the cost that way... Then you can also sell the Ties, for a extra $60, meaning those 8 Z-95's actually cost you $20. Letting you 4 more expansion packs @ $10 to fill in the stuff you're missing.
Which gives you 12 ships for the cost of the 8 Ties...
My assumption on selling off the Core set components vs. core set cost may be generous because if you can sell off all the minis and turn a profit then the everything essentially becomes "free". Perhaps I should just forget about selling of anything extra which pushes the price back up to $95. Of course then I need to add a Core Set to the Z-95s and bring that up to $105 using the prices I figured.
If I'm being honest I really think the cost of either squad is too much if the only reason for owning 8 of a certain ship is so that you can fly those swarms.
The "pay to play" example was something I had mentioned in a thread calling for a ban on C-3PO. If it were "essential" to play the steep cost of acquiring one probably could be seen as starting to hurt the game. Now maybe it was only used half of the time in the top lists but is that always because it wasn't determined to be necessary or because it wasn't available to the squad builder.
I am sure there are people who can easily afford to buy whatever they like for this or any other game but I'm afraid there is also a group that will buy whatever they like for the game but really can NOT afford to do it. I know this game may be played by people who are out of college and have good jobs but I'm thinking about the students and those who may have financial issues yet who want to play this game.
If I'm being honest I really think the cost of either squad is too much if the only reason for owning 8 of a certain ship is so that you can fly those swarms.
It's sort of a progressive cost in a way. Having 4 Ties or Z's gives you lots of options for fillers, but each Tie/Z you add becomes money spent for a narrowing list of possible lists. So in a way as the $'s go up, the options go down.
So is it worth $15 for that 8th Tie/Z when the only thing you can do with it, is play a 8 ship swarm?
Now maybe it was only used half of the time in the top lists but is that always because it wasn't determined to be necessary or because it wasn't available to the squad builder.
I'd assume that anyone serious enough about the game to play in Regionals or GenCon, is serious enough to buy the CR-90. So you can't assume that the reason it wasn't in the list is just because the person doesn't have it.
I'm thinking about the students and those who may have financial issues yet who want to play this game.
Given the cost of a competitive list in this game, it's easily the most accessible mini game out there. They may not be able to afford a 8 Z-95 Swarm, but that doesn't mean they can't play.
I'm thinking about the students and those who may have financial issues yet who want to play this game.Given the cost of a competitive list in this game, it's easily the most accessible mini game out there. They may not be able to afford a 8 Z-95 Swarm, but that doesn't mean they can't play.
I won't try disagreeing about this being one of the most accessible mini games out there although I believe it was possible to build decent squads/warbands in the WotC mini-games for less although the great squads often cost more.
As you mention the cost vs. use value of ships does start going down pretty quickly in many cases and I'm certain that is a reason you don't really see that many Z-95 swarms. At least with the TIE Fighter swarms you were almost certain everyone had TIE Fighters from the Core Set and when a lot of advice suggested getting two core sets many people start out with a good number of TIE Fighter; if you've got friends to borrow ships from it doesn't take so much to put together 8 TIE Fighters to try that big swarm with. The Z-95s are in a different boat as each ship is a specific purchase. Where it the point of diminishing returns when it comes to Z-95s? I'd say it is two or three ships, which I believe is better than for most ships, and using more than four will really require some dedication to the Z. Now where this can start to differ from the TIE Fighter is when you look at the previously mentioned "friends" you have. While everyone probably has T/F I'm not nearly as convinced that everyone is going to have Zs and especially not in the same number. If someone want to try a Z they may be more likely to borrow it as buy it. Even in a group setting I suspect there will be far fewer Zs easily available than there are T/F and that will make the Z Swarms far less common. All of this will go back to Zs having a higher acquisition cost at some point.
A naked z-95 has better jousting efficiency
Of course it does, it has one higher pilot skill and is roughly similar in how hard it is to kill. But if you fly your Obsidian TIE fighter straight at a Tala Z-95 without making use of any of the TIE's advantages in speed and maneuverability you deserve to be vaped by it.
I don't like the headhunters in general. They're weak and once you miss with the missiles... they're dead. Just frustating ships to play with imo.
Healthwise they're a hull upgrade off a T-65. Do you like the TIE fighter?
It's a fine list, the PS bump is considerable in that you will simulfire with a great many lists.
I'd like the headhunter's more if they had a generic pilot with an EPT for about 14 points. (ps3)
What's not to like? It's a cheap 4 or 5th ship in builds... It allows for you to spend more on ships while not having to drop to 3 ship lists that don't historically do well.
Additionally the points efficiency of the ship is incredible, you get a lot for your points. I don't remember where it ranks on Major Juggler's jousting efficiency but I know it's in the top 5.
What's not to like? It's a cheap 4 or 5th ship in builds... It allows for you to spend more on ships while not having to drop to 3 ship lists that don't historically do well.
Additionally the points efficiency of the ship is incredible, you get a lot for your points. I don't remember where it ranks on Major Juggler's jousting efficiency but I know it's in the top 5.
I'm in the middle of re-tooling my scripts to calculate durability based on number of shots to kill rather than average damage intake. Higher HP ships generally fare relatively worse than before, despite correcting the overall points curve to their advantage. The numbers are meta-dependent, but the typical values are:
As soon the most wanted pack comes out and the m3 (< wrong?) interceptor 20 point pilot which is defensive howlrunner. Having that with 6 z-95's is gonna be a good list i think.
