There are almost no Z-95 swarm builds (i.e. 7-8 Z-95s) showing up in the tournament lists, and certainly there are no Z-swarms placing very highly.

In comparison, even though the raw number of TIE swarms is down in tournaments, when they do appear they can still be extremely competitive.

Do you all think this paucity of Z-swarms is because people have tried them and they stink, or is it simply because not many strong players have given them a good try yet?

I'm interested in running a true Z-swarm list, but not sure if I want to buy all the models if the list is going to be hopeless.

Because... Howlrunner.

If the low level Z95s had something to allow all of them at least a one-die reroll, you'd see them more often. However, FFG has already said they're not going to give both sides the same toys, so it's highly doubtful we'll see it. The closest boost that the Rebels can give to a pack of Z95s is Etahn A'baht.

Here is the long waited confrontation that took place in tourney finals in England:

The squads are:

4 x Z-95 Bandit Sqd, 4 x Z-95 Tala Sqd
5 x TIE Academy Pilot, "Back Stabber", "Howlrunner" w/Stealth Device, Swarm Tactics

To add to the above, I have almost all of the squad lists for Gen Con, with ~200 people, and I don't remember seeing a single 8Z swarm. So it is certainly not getting tried.

We really won't know how effective it is until someone skilled tries it competitively, but it should be pretty good. It has the same damage output and durability as a TIE, but has the PS advantage over the TIE Swarm.

Edit: Ah yes I forgot about that tourney in England. That is about how I would expect such a slugfest to play out.

I believe the main issue is the cost (USD) to field 8-Z95s. You have to buy them individually. Just recently, MM had a sale of them for half price and Z95s were sold out in under 5-6 hours. Not sure how many they (MM) had in stock. I am sure we will see them more and more in the coming months. Not to mention when the Scum fraction comes out, where one will get two Z95s in the pack.

I have flown an 8 headhunter swarm a few times now and I find that the one extra health, even if two of them are shields, is not as good as three evade dice. That plus no Howlrunne will leave this list out of competitive play for me. It is fun to play though.

Z's are really best when they have missiles.

My guess is largely untested and a lot of arm-chair conjecture. Frankly I think it's a boring list, so every time I want to try it, I'm like "nah, [any other list] sounds more fun".

Here is the long waited confrontation that took place in tourney finals in England:

The squads are:

4 x Z-95 Bandit Sqd, 4 x Z-95 Tala Sqd

5 x TIE Academy Pilot, "Back Stabber", "Howlrunner" w/Stealth Device, Swarm Tactics

Ha, I love the big cluster of ships around 16:30 minutes. I'm guessing most of the game time went to figuring out bumping. I'd hate to see that on Vassal.

I have flown an 8 headhunter swarm a few times now and I find that the one extra health, even if two of them are shields, is not as good as three evade dice.

It depends on the particular matchup. If you average across the entire meta game, range bins, and action economy, then it takes nearly the identical number of shots required to kill both, statistically. The balance can shift towards either ship in a particular matchup. TIEs like to fight against 2 attack ships, but Z's are generally more well rounded.

There are almost no Z-95 swarm builds (i.e. 7-8 Z-95s) showing up in the tournament lists, and certainly there are no Z-swarms placing very highly.

To add to the above, I have almost all of the squad lists for Gen Con, with ~200 people, and I don't remember seeing a single 8Z swarm. So it is certainly not getting tried.

We really won't know how effective it is until someone skilled tries it competitively...

Just to hammer this point one more time, a lot of people forget that last bit. A very good list brought to a tournament by a relatively weak player won't show up in the collected stats; it's hard to use the results to evaluate the strength of a list unless (a) that list shows up at tournaments, (b) it's run by reasonably skilled players, and © it's run by enough reasonably skilled players to overcome the statistical noise created by dice.

MJ's various weighting schemes help filter the results, but you can't recover data that doesn't exist. The results tell us that almost no one is running Z-95 swarms successfully, but they don't tell us why. We have to look elsewhere to contextualize the results, and jpltanis' hypothesis--that the sheer expense of running the list is turning people away--is a very plausible explanation.

I believe the main issue is the cost (USD) to field 8-Z95s. You have to buy them individually. Just recently, MM had a sale of them for half price and Z95s were sold out in under 5-6 hours. Not sure how many they (MM) had in stock. I am sure we will see them more and more in the coming months. Not to mention when the Scum fraction comes out, where one will get two Z95s in the pack.

Which apparently isn't going to help. See the threads talking about being unable to "mix" dials because they have different faction markings on them. If you want to fly 8 Z-95's for the Scum it seems you'll need to but three Most Wanted Boxes and two Expansions. If you want to run 8 Rebels you're still going to have to buy 8 expansions.

Perhaps we should also as "how many mini-swarms of Z-95s have shown up?"

If you see four being run with a Falcon that's like a number of Imperial squadrons that run 4-5 T/F with another big point ship or two. I also think the Z-95 is a bit more versatile than the TIE Fighter and can be used in smaller numbers.

Interesting... so far there's clearly no consensus regarding "ineffective" vs. "untested".

The lack of anecdotes from people actually fielding Z-swarms suggest to be that "untested" is definitely a real explanation.

Because... Howlrunner.

I think we can rule this hypothesis out. There are several examples of TIE swarms that performed at a very high level without Howlrunner.

Remember that Zs have some advantages over TIEs, including shields and missiles.

In terms of prohibitive cost of fielding a Z-swarm, another expense beyond the Z-95 models themselves is the cost of getting replicates of the best missile cards. For instance, I would probably outfit a Z-swarm with at least a few Cluster Missiles (w/ Munitions Failsafe), which you only get from A-Wings and TIE Advanced expansions - both of which are not terribly popular expansions.

For instance it would cost ~$200 to field:

4x Bandit-Cluster Missile-Munitions Failsafe

2x Bandit-Proton Rockets-Munitions Failsafe

(100pts)

Here is the long waited confrontation that took place in tourney finals in England:

The squads are:

4 x Z-95 Bandit Sqd, 4 x Z-95 Tala Sqd

5 x TIE Academy Pilot, "Back Stabber", "Howlrunner" w/Stealth Device, Swarm Tactics

i flew the Tie Swarm in this game, and lost. however, as i have stated elsewhere, i lost it because I forgot a crit on backstabber and did a red move, thus dying. if he had lived i'd have won.

I have flown an 8 headhunter swarm a few times now and I find that the one extra health, even if two of them are shields, is not as good as three evade dice. That plus no Howlrunne will leave this list out of competitive play for me. It is fun to play though.

this is how i feel about it. the lower PS and three agility enabled me to control the above game to a decent extent.

i was a total noob with the swarm when i played that game, and now that i have 35ish game under my belt with it, i feel very confident that it is still much better than the HH swarm. I don't think it is bad, but it lacks versatility and hitting power, while being relatively easy to take apart.

I can u understand not wanting mixed dials all over the place but it's unrealistic to expect people to buy one set over and over.

And I'm not sure if they'll make individual boosters but we need some way to get dials for s&v players.

As for z-95s swarming I'm sure it could work but it won't quite have the bite without howlrunner, but rebels have alot of synergy I'm sure it could be made to work.

If you don't want to buy eight Z95s, borrow some from friends. I have four of them myself, and I know that with one or two requests, I could quickly bring eight to the field from my friends and fellow gamers.

Here is the long waited confrontation that took place in tourney finals in England:

The squads are:

4 x Z-95 Bandit Sqd, 4 x Z-95 Tala Sqd

5 x TIE Academy Pilot, "Back Stabber", "Howlrunner" w/Stealth Device, Swarm Tactics

This is a good watch.

There are tons of Z-swarms out there. But they're not as good as TIE ones because: Howlrunner.

You can also spend $0 and test run it on Vassal. However, Not that I'm on there all the time, but I haven't seen anyone try it out though.

If I ran a Z swarm, I would prefer to have 6 Talas and Blount with an Assault Missile.

Watching that game I see a lot of things I would have done differently with the Z. So while the TIEs admittedly were not played to full effect, I don't think the Z's were either. The Z's have a lot of turtle power with their 1 forward and higher PS.

There has not been a real synergistic list I've seen featuring 7+ Z95s. They grade out well on efficiency as a base ship, they just aren't as exciting. Frankly, the TIE has an advantage in maneuver (dial and barrel roll) which makes them more appealing to me as individual ships within a swarm. Zs largely feel like feeder fish waiting to get eaten, as the best role they seem to fill is that of taking shots of opportunity or attracting shots away from higher value targets.

FFG didn't want the Z-95 to be a swarm craft, they specifically state that this is not what it was intended for and designed it intending it to not be a swarmer: it's a filler craft and missile platform. Thus, by design the TIE swarm, even without Howlrunner, has a slight edge and the Z-95s are a little more vunerable. Z-95s get an extra hitpoint and, for the same cost, one higher pilot skill. TIE fighters get an extra agility die, trade Target Lock for Barrel Roll and Evade, and have a superior dial. Their weaker pilot skill gives them a blocking advantage in a joust and their maneuverability gives them an advantage in a dogfight. The Z-95 only does better when flying straight at a lower pilot skill TIE fighter and jousting it: ie: when the TIE fighter doesn't use its advantages.

The Z-95s may have a couple of specific cases where they have a slight edge over the TIE fighter equivalent, but for swarming TIE fighters are the way FFG wants us to go and I'm pretty sure they succeeded in leaving them better at it than the Z-95.

What does the Z-95 have that the TIE doesn't? Missile slot. It's good at killing swarms without having to swarm itself.

There has not been a real synergistic list I've seen featuring 7+ Z95s. They grade out well on efficiency as a base ship, they just aren't as exciting. Frankly, the TIE has an advantage in maneuver (dial and barrel roll) which makes them more appealing to me as individual ships within a swarm. Zs largely feel like feeder fish waiting to get eaten, as the best role they seem to fill is that of taking shots of opportunity or attracting shots away from higher value targets.

Although having to keep everything within 1 or howlrunner can really limit it's movement.

I've been using 6 Bandits plus Rourke with Ion Turret and Moldy Crow. I have done OK. But I am just a mediocre player really.