Rexler Brath + Outmaneuver + Heavy Laser Cannon + Shield Upgrade

vs.

Han Solo + Lone Wolf + Luke Skywalker + C-3P0 + Millennium Falcon + Counter-Measures

That would be interesting. My money is on Han. To try and enforce the jousting mentality on the Falcon you could also try:

Han Solo + Lone Wolf + Luke Skywalker + Tactician + Millennium Falcon + Anti-Pursuit Lasers

I agree. They would be some interesting battles. Lone Wolf would be a good bet on Rexler as well. Who can tool up their highest PS pilot with the biggest amount of kit though is not the point I was making (hence the sigh), so it's irrelevant.

You did, you explicitly removed points from the equation.

Er no. I think you may have misunderstood. When I said potential damage output per point is irrelevant, I meant that how the damage output of one 30 point Delta Defender compares to that of two (and a half) Academy TIES or one point four two eight five etc Rookie Pilots is - again - irrelevant when discussing a straight up, one-on-one scenario.

What do you mean by this part? Do you mean only using straights and K-turns? I can only think of one example of where this strategy was used competitively, it was at GenCon Finals in 2013.

In any event, here's a new ship whose lowest PS ship should be able to take on the Delta Squadron Pilot 1v1.

No , that's not what I meant (although I have seen that approach used in tournaments myself. It won quickly where people were unprepared for it, and died quickly when it got baited and flanked). I meant taking into account the game's movement mechanics as a whole, and how the Defender inherently ignores one of the big ones.

Good point on the Aggressor though. It's looking very nasty indeed, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it handles itself.

When I said potential damage output per point is irrelevant, I meant that how the damage output of one 30 point Delta Defender compares to that of two (and a half) Academy TIES or one point four two eight five etc Rookie Pilots is - again - irrelevant when discussing a straight up, one-on-one scenario.

This is the part I don't understand the motivation for. Outside of playing a house rules game where everyone gets the same number of ships, the only time this can happen is in the end game. In this example, if you have a single 30 point ship vs a single 12 point ship remaining, you already have a full victory if time expires.

This is the part I don't understand the motivation for. Outside of playing a house rules game where everyone gets the same number of ships, the only time this can happen is in the end game. In this example, if you have a single 30 point ship vs a single 12 point ship remaining, you already have a full victory if time expires.

Incorrect, that's not the only time it can happen at all. 3x3 play areas (and 6x3 in epic) gives you a fair bit of space to work with. Are you seriously telling me you've never seen one ship go head to head with one other ship before? Players pairing ships off against each other from across the board? Knowing which match ups are favourable and which match ups to avoid (and as you yourself have shown with your analysis, there's more to this than simple points values vs points values) can help tip the odds in your favour.

The Defender is an end game beast, yes. It can punch above it's weight and take on ships of a higher value effectively as well. But I would say you rarely if ever want to have one ship going head-to-head with a Defender, at ANY stage of the game.

This is the part I don't understand the motivation for. Outside of playing a house rules game where everyone gets the same number of ships, the only time this can happen is in the end game. In this example, if you have a single 30 point ship vs a single 12 point ship remaining, you already have a full victory if time expires.

Incorrect, that's not the only time it can happen at all. 3x3 play areas (and 6x3 in epic) gives you a fair bit of space to work with. Are you seriously telling me you've never seen one ship go head to head with one other ship before?

Do you mean, 2 ships all by themselves fighting alone, jousting back and forth for multiple rounds, with all the other ships in a different corner of the play area not taking part in that portion of the battle?

No.

And that's the point, if you have other ships, even if they are not getting a firing solution for one round, they are still contributing to the battle, and contributing to the overall firing duty cycle.

In a squad based game that revolves around points you can't look at anything in a vacuum. It never plays out that way in real life.

Everyone forgets that the defender has a hard one, yes it is a red maneuver but I have caught so many people off guard doing that who assumed I was doing a 4k

Everyone forgets that the defender has a hard one, yes it is a red maneuver but I have caught so many people off guard doing that who assumed I was doing a 4k

Hmmm.. I have a strange feeling of deja vu...

But yeah, it's not because the maneuver is Red that you can't do it. I've been using them a lot, especially with Vessery that still has a TL thanks to his buddies. But if you do so, you should also plan ahead on how you will eventually get rid of that stress with only Straight Green. Lonewolf will help the Defender with this handicap as getting a reroll for each attack and defense roll will give you more survivability when you decide to keep your stress token one more turn.

In a squad based game that revolves around points you can't look at anything in a vacuum. It never plays out that way in real life.

Uh-huh. Because identifying which ships give you favorable/unfavorable one-on-one situations and then forcing/avoiding those situations is "looking at things in a vacuum".

Incidentally, your entire math thread is "looking at things in a vacuum", as you yourself have pointed out the extensive limitations of the analysis and the various aspects of the game it doesn't take into account. I guess it never plays out like that in real life either, hmm?

So: let's look at the facts here. I posited that there's not other basic pilot in the game that can compete consistently with the Delta Squadron pilot, and after a page of intensive debate, so far the only arguments you've been able to muster to the contrary are:

a: A ship that hasn't been released yet and

b: The self-defeating "but the game doesn't work like that"

Good job you're good at math, mate!

Juggler is essentially saying of course the TIE defender beats other small ships in a one on one fight because it's a starting from 30 point ship. It's not a support ship. It should maul cheaper ships because if it didn't it would be massively overcosted for what it is. If it's fighting the equivalent point cost of ships then it's up against more than one ship.

Incidentally, your entire math thread is "looking at things in a vacuum", as you yourself have pointed out the extensive limitations of the analysis and the various aspects of the game it doesn't take into account. I guess it never plays out like that in real life either, hmm?

I clearly define those attributes which can be easily quantified (like the jousting efficiency based on purely the raw stat line, for example). Then I list the ones that have varying degrees of certainty (like giving dial weightings, for example). I fail to see how that is looking at things in a vacuum.

Since you opened that can of worms.... The math also predicts that generic E-wings and Defenders are overcosted, Z-95s are at least as points efficient as TIE Fighters, and that ACD Phantoms are brutally efficient when they aren't hard countered by higher PS or gunner. These predictions were made before the ships were playable at Regionals. We are several months into wave 4 Regionals and Nationals, and so far the model has been validated for all 4 ships in wave 4. So, you can belittle the model, but so far it has been correct.

Beyond just that, the 4 ships with the highest jousting value, plus the Y-wing with an Ion Cannon Turret (most cost effective platform for the Ion Cannon Turret), are the only 5 ships that consistently do well in tournaments using only generic pilots, by a fairly wide margin. So, that certainly says something. You can choose to ignore it, but there is very good correlation between the mathematical models and tournament results.

Specifically in regards to TIE Defenders, Regional statistics show a very poor conditional effectiveness of generic TIE Defender pilots in Regionals (how well they do given that they make the Final Cut or Top Third). It's possible that the Defender will turn out to be an ugly duckling like the Lambda shuttle, and people will figure out how to better utilize the K-turn, and in 6-12 months it will start seeing more success like the Lambda shuttle is now. But I don't think that's the case. In the Lambda's case, it is already outrageously cost effective, so the only trick is to mitigate its poor dial. Thankfully we have asteroids, smart maneuvering, and FCS to even further increase its efficiency. In the TIE Defender's case, it has the stat efficiency of the TIE Advanced, and its only redeeming qualities are a white K-turn and, to a far lesser extent, a cannon slot.

That's not to say the named pilots can't be useful. Vessery's ability is extremely consistent in a squad built for him, Rexler is amazing in epic play, and both cost a point less than the normal cost progression, which slightly helps offset their high cost.

How exactly is point b "self-defeating"? I'm pointing out that the conditions which satisfy your criteria simply do not exist in the standard game.

Juggler is essentially saying of course the TIE defender beats other small ships in a one on one fight because it's a starting from 30 point ship. It's not a support ship. It should maul cheaper ships because if it didn't it would be massively overcosted for what it is. If it's fighting the equivalent point cost of ships then it's up against more than one ship.

Right, Lagomorphia gets it. For example: if a 33 point ship manages to square off and isolate a 12 point ship (i.e. Defender + Ion Cannon Turret on lockdown duty), that leaves another 21 points worth of ship in your opponent's squad free to fight in other engagements elsewhere. Points are points are points, and unless your opponent flies their ships off the map or around in circles away from everyone else, those points will get used somewhere.

There is no free lunch.

To summarize the entire conversation:

Gecko: "If you can take only one generic ship currently in the game, at its lowest PS, then the Delta Squadron Pilot is the best individual ship in a 1v1!"

MajorJuggler: "And..... your point is what, exactly?"

Postscript, I totally agree with the first post, the ship looks awesome.

Honestly PtL really hasn't worked out well on them. Say what you will in their favor, destressing them can be irritating. Plus their available actions don't synergize well with it, unless you give them Engine Upgrade as well, and that's where the point sink can start to tip against you.

A stressed defender is a dead defender in my books

I would say more that a stressed Defender is a more vulnerable Defender. They've still got 6 HP, and they can evade a lot. I think it's more accurate to say they're at the mercy of their dice. It's not like a Phantom where a huge portion of its utility evaporates just because of a little stress token. (I've had Defenders survive just fine for several turns in Epic matches while being continually Jammed.)

...which is why I said one-on-one. You're talking damage-output-per-point, which isn't actually a joust. A joust is one vs one, backwards and forwards in a straight line until someone falls off their horse.

And there is no better one-on-one, straight line jouster in the game than the TIE Defender.

Well, since we are going no-limit, I see your Delta Squadron Pilot and raise you Fat Chewie!

le sigh.

"I'll see your "Fat Chewie" and raise you Brath with HLC, Outmaneuver & Shield Upgrade. K-turn to face me, eat stress and lose your actions or donut, sacrifice your firing arc, lose your agility and any use from C3PO."

But who said anything about no limits? If you want me to have the Delta Squadron, fine. Pit the basic ship against the basic ship. You then get the Outer Rime Smuggler. Find me a ship that can consistently deteat a Delta Squadron Pilot from the other lowest PS ships available, with no other upgrades, and taking the games straight line movement mechanics and actions into consideration.

Yeah I would take Brath in that fight more times than not. Brath loves him some large ships. I'm pretty sure it is what the designers had in mind for him.

Dunno mate, he works okay against Phantoms too…

Another important data point is the perception of durability. I recently calculated the probability density function for the average number of shots to destroy each stat line, with 3 different sets of assumptions about the meta of what is shooting at you.

The pertinent point here is that doubling your hit points does not double your durability. Ships with less HP have artificially higher health relative to their HP/s divided by the average damage intake numbers, because quite often they will be dealt a killing blow that deals more damage than they have HP. This extra "wasted" damage is not reflected in the average damage numbers. For an extreme example, think of what would happen if you had 1 HP TIE Droids with 3 agility. 3 of them would be far more durable than 3 TIE Fighters, because you would need 3 separate killing blows. Conversely, ships with large HP increase the offensive efficiency of the ships attacking them. They soak up any and all damage laid into them. Maximum punishment.

So 2 TIE Fighters are cumulatively actually just a little bit more durable than one TIE Defender. This does include the probability of extra damage critical hits, and that the Defender is immune to 4 critical hits (first 3 shields plus last hull), and the TIE Fighter is only immune to 1 (last hull).

On top of that, the damage output goes up by around 70% going from 2 attack to 3 attack. In all, the jousting value of the TIE Defender is around the same as 2 TIE Fighters. I just retooled my scripts and the new number is actually 23 points. But it costs 30 points. It's really hard to make back that deficit with just having a white K-turn.

Do you mean, 2 ships all by themselves fighting alone, jousting back and forth for multiple rounds, with all the other ships in a different corner of the play area not taking part in that portion of the battle?

Oh, actually I've seen something like this before. It was Chewie vs. Whisper, and it was pretty even. It took the entire Epic match minus a few rounds, but Chewie eventually won out by a single Hull point. Of course, This was likely because the Phantom took a turn or two out to hop over to another part of the map to blow away an X-Wing that was giving me trouble (it was Team Epic, my partner controlled the Phantom). If it wasn't for that little detour, Chewie would likely have been dead and Whisper would still have had 2 hull.

Major, I think what he's trying to get at is basically thanks to its stat line and only its stat line, the Defender can go toe-to-toe with almost anything. I'd have to agree for the most part. X-Wings have lower agility and lower hull for the same actions but can't barrel roll (giving the Defender the possible arc dodge advantage, even if it's just once throughout the whole tete-a-tete), B-Wings have more HP but with only 1 evade, chances are they're taking almost everything the Defender dishes out. A-Wings match them in agility but have less attack, shields and hull. Y-wings are W-wings, and even the 1300 may have problems. Especially the unnamed one, with it's inferior stat line to a named YT. I think this is what he's getting at is all I'm sayin'.

But it costs 30 points. It's really hard to make back that deficit with just having a white K-turn.

And that, I would probably say, can be attributed to them not knowing just how potent that K-turn would or would not be. I believe they even openly admitted to this.

On top of that, the damage output goes up by around 70% going from 2 attack to 3 attack. In all, the jousting value of the TIE Defender is around the same as 2 TIE Fighters. I just retooled my scripts and the new number is actually 23 points. But it costs 30 points. It's really hard to make back that deficit with just having a white K-turn.

So does this mean that two TIE Fighters roughly have a 50/50 chance to take down one naked TIE Defender?

On top of that, the damage output goes up by around 70% going from 2 attack to 3 attack. In all, the jousting value of the TIE Defender is around the same as 2 TIE Fighters. I just retooled my scripts and the new number is actually 23 points. But it costs 30 points. It's really hard to make back that deficit with just having a white K-turn.

So does this mean that two TIE Fighters roughly have a 50/50 chance to take down one naked TIE Defender?

Not exactly. For one thing, those numbers are meta wide averages, and specific matchups will be slightly different. The 2 attack of the TIE Fighters will have a harder time getting through the 3 agility.

Secondly, the jousting value only considers the 4 stats and the ship cost. The Defender K-turn is quite nice.

Thirdly, the numbers assume a 100 point squad. At smaller point caps, more expensive ships become a relatively better value, since their damage output does not get reduced until the ship is 100% destroyed.

So all things considered, I would expect the Defender to win in a straight up fight 2v1. But if it were 8v3 then you would have a very different answer.

Ahhrghh, now you've done it! You've confused me with numbers!

Apart from the things that can be calculated about the Defender I think the bigger problem is that it came out in the same wave as the Phantom. The Phantom got all the attention and everybody wants to try it. It is quite expensive so there's just no room left for the Defender in current lists.

During the German Nationals last month there were only 2 Defenders to be seen in 78 different squads. It's not that people wouldn't like it - it's just that nearly nobody got around yet to really trying it. The Lambda Shuttle had the same problem and to a certain degree the Tie Bomber too. Those are ships that are not as easily accessible as others and you have to either figure out how to upgrade them or fly them or you have to get over a certain fact first which keeps you from using it. With the Defender I think this fact is it's seemingly high cost. Also there is nothing really flashy about it on first sight to grab your attention like e.g. the ability to cloak.

I'd say it's still to early to say something like "You don't see Defenders or generic Defenders in squads so they must be rubbish in competitive play". Over time we'll see more Defenders in squads and more people will find out that it's a solid ship that has it's place. (Given that there is enough time for that to happen with all the new expansions already announced.)

As soon as Rebel Aces drops, I'll be trying out triple basics w/proton rockets.

I think Tie Advanced might be a more economical option when throwing in proton rockets. Not saying that proton rockets is not good with defenders because it really is, I'm just saying it might help you keep some points for the cannon slot on your defenders.

On top of that, the damage output goes up by around 70% going from 2 attack to 3 attack. In all, the jousting value of the TIE Defender is around the same as 2 TIE Fighters. I just retooled my scripts and the new number is actually 23 points. But it costs 30 points. It's really hard to make back that deficit with just having a white K-turn.

So does this mean that two TIE Fighters roughly have a 50/50 chance to take down one naked TIE Defender?

Not exactly. For one thing, those numbers are meta wide averages, and specific matchups will be slightly different. The 2 attack of the TIE Fighters will have a harder time getting through the 3 agility.

Secondly, the jousting value only considers the 4 stats and the ship cost. The Defender K-turn is quite nice.

Thirdly, the numbers assume a 100 point squad. At smaller point caps, more expensive ships become a relatively better value, since their damage output does not get reduced until the ship is 100% destroyed.

So all things considered, I would expect the Defender to win in a straight up fight 2v1. But if it were 8v3 then you would have a very different answer.

I've had a game where vessery and rexler were pretty beat up after killing a falcon one had no shields the other one left and I was facing two untouched x-wings one untouched z-95 and a b-wing with two shields stripped, out gunned and out numbered I killed all four only losing that last shield.

Honestly PtL really hasn't worked out well on them. Say what you will in their favor, destressing them can be irritating. Plus their available actions don't synergize well with it, unless you give them Engine Upgrade as well, and that's where the point sink can start to tip against you.

A stressed defender is a dead defender in my books

I would say more that a stressed Defender is a more vulnerable Defender. They've still got 6 HP, and they can evade a lot. I think it's more accurate to say they're at the mercy of their dice. It's not like a Phantom where a huge portion of its utility evaporates just because of a little stress token. (I've had Defenders survive just fine for several turns in Epic matches while being continually Jammed.)

A defender withouth focus token, doesn't last very long. Otherwise they are pretty durable.

That's why i don't like Rexler.

A defender withouth focus token, doesn't last very long. Otherwise they are pretty durable.

That's why i don't like Rexler.

Fleet officer will fix any issues there.

As will Predator + Howlie at R1, if you go full-tilt bananas on the offence.

As will Predator + Howlie at R1, if you go full-tilt bananas on the offence.

You misunderstood me. The reason i don't like rexler is because defenders require that focus to hold on as long as possible, since you want to kill your opponent slowly but surely, until it gets to later stages of the game where the white 4k turn is a game changing machine.

Having predator + howlie at range 1, doesn't change the fact that Rexler's ability to shine requires the use of a focus token, which you won't have for defense then. So then again, why take Rexler in the first place ?

Well Rexler is pretty well costed for a PS 8 Defender. So you could justify Rexler as a high PS defender who gets to use an elite pilot talent. His ability is then just a cherry on the icing for late game when shields are down, and for use at times when you are safe from return fire.

It's whether 7 extra points is worth 7 extra pilot skill and access to an EPT, and the option to use his ability when the odds are in your favour.