Well, part of the reason you can't get large numbers of setback dice is because the designers deliberately designed the rules that way, with Sam Stewart flat out saying the made the change to cover during the EotE Beta simply to cut down on the number of setback dice applied from things like armor and cover.

Defensive Training only seems lackluster when using two very specific lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and Lorrdian Gemstone). And then only if you don't invest in Defensive Training, which if a PC is going to focus on being a lightsaber duelist, they'll have plenty of chances to do as said talent shows up in four of the LS Form specs (twice in Niman), and with the exception of Makashi Duelist is fairly easy to work around if you really don't want the talent.

That's not to say I don't think it could use a little sprucing up; thus the suggestion to have it operate similar to the Unrelenting Skeptic talent only applying Threat instead of Failure, though perhaps some cost should be applied to said revamp of Defensive Training as it wouldn't be too hard to stack ranks of it, and thus make triggering effects that rely upon the attacker generating lots of threat (like Improved Parry and Improved Reflect), which some GMs may not be comfortable with.

I actually don't mind having a variety of ways to get Defense. I also don't mind not breaking the game by not having all these methods stack. Am I missing something?

hmmm, why wouldn't it stack with armor defense trait? Defensive specifically states that 'A character wielding a weapon with the Defensive quality increases his melee defense by the weapon's Defensive rating". Some armor provides defense of 1 so any weapons that have defensive add to that. So, conceivably a player with the right armor, defensive training and a lightsaber with curved hilt and lorridan gemstone would still have 4 ranks of melee defense and 3 ranks in ranged defense and yes the Niman Disciple could get that up to 5 ranks of melee defense via 2 ranks in Defensive Training. The talent only replaces the ranks in defensive the weapon inherently possesses, not the +1 ranks other effects apply. The talent is a wide affecting talent that also benefits all other melee and brawl weapons providing defensive bonus where none would normally be. I would rather the Makashi Duelist get the 2 ranks in Defensive Training at the cost of 1 Grit and Niman Disciple replace one Defensive Training with an additional rating in Grit.

Stacking only seems to apply to other sources of the Defense quality, such as armor vs cover whereas Reflect and Defensive always add to the Defense total for their respective areas.

Stacking only seems to apply to other sources of the Defense quality, such as armor vs cover whereas Reflect and Defensive always add to the Defense total for their respective areas.

After looking back at the rules, it seems you are right.... Defensive Training gives Defensive to the weapon, but Defensive increases Melee Defense by that number... so Defensive would stack with either armor or cover.

Even if Defensive stacks with Melee Defense, Defensive Training doesn't increase the Lightsaber's inherent Defensive, it Gains Defensive X, so if it already have it, you choose the highest one.... still subpar to Loordian Gemstone.

But now that I know that it stacks, would dual wielding 2 LS with Defensive stack ?? I think it should.... And if you have Defensive Training, does both LS get the Defensive bonus ?

Here's my question: why would dooku bother to have curved hilts. It seems highly unlikely that he would t have defensive training, and I doubt his sabers had lorrdiran stones. Does he just like to waste money?

Here's my question: why would dooku bother to have curved hilts. It seems highly unlikely that he would t have defensive training, and I doubt his sabers had lorrdiran stones. Does he just like to waste money?

Here's my question: why would dooku bother to have curved hilts. It seems highly unlikely that he would t have defensive training, and I doubt his sabers had lorrdiran stones. Does he just like to waste money?

How about the free Advantage that you get when facing a single engaged opponent? It's listed as the base mechanic of the curved hilt, so Dooku can use it and still get a decent benefit from the attachment given he practices a Form built around one-on-one duels even if he never modifies it. It's adding Defensive 1 that's the modification.

It'd be akin to a Wookiee adding the Bowcaster Automatic Re-Cocker without any intent of modifying it to provide the Auto-Fire quality, particularly if they've only got an Intellect of 2 and no ranks in Mechanics. Or a Scoundrel with the Quick Draw talent not bothering to modify the Shortened Barrel attachment.

Psha. Why would anyone want free advantage? that's just silly. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to not post things with out the beta at hand, because then I look foolish.

Defensive Training only seems lackluster when using two very specific lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and Lorrdian Gemstone). And then only if you don't invest in Defensive Training, which if a PC is going to focus on being a lightsaber duelist, they'll have plenty of chances to do as said talent shows up in four of the LS Form specs (twice in Niman), and with the exception of Makashi Duelist is fairly easy to work around if you really don't want the talent.

I find it odd that they would put two very specifi lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and lorrdian gemstone) to replace a talent, Defensive Training, for the specs that don't have access to it.... not every talent has a gear equivalent... and making said gear better then the talent is even strangier.

Anyway... my suggestion is to have Defensive Training give both Defensive and Reflection to the LS, equal to ranks in DT.

Any other suggestions ? Comments ?

Here's my question: why would dooku bother to have curved hilts. It seems highly unlikely that he would t have defensive training, and I doubt his sabers had lorrdiran stones. Does he just like to waste money?

that hilt mod also adds +1 defensive, so that stacks with defensive training. The crystal not so much, you'd have to get the +1 modification as the inherent 1 defensive on the crystal attachment would be wiped out by the defensive training talent.

Stacking only seems to apply to other sources of the Defense quality, such as armor vs cover whereas Reflect and Defensive always add to the Defense total for their respective areas.

After looking back at the rules, it seems you are right.... Defensive Training gives Defensive to the weapon, but Defensive increases Melee Defense by that number... so Defensive would stack with either armor or cover.

Even if Defensive stacks with Melee Defense, Defensive Training doesn't increase the Lightsaber's inherent Defensive, it Gains Defensive X, so if it already have it, you choose the highest one.... still subpar to Loordian Gemstone.

But now that I know that it stacks, would dual wielding 2 LS with Defensive stack ?? I think it should.... And if you have Defensive Training, does both LS get the Defensive bonus ?

Well, depends on if you want extra +1 defensive mods or not. Obviously if you want to save money then you needn't bother but if you want to have as much melee defense as possible you'd need the crystal mods and the curved hilt.

As for multiple weapons...well the RAW states 'a weapon' not implying multiple weapons, so that may be a gray area for GMs to exploit. I myself would see no problem of having the +1 mods adding from multiple sabers otherwise the only reason to dual wield is for damage that may or may not activatate.

that hilt mod also adds +1 defensive, so that stacks with defensive training.

So, maxing out a Lorrdian Crystal and a Curved Hilt is useless for anyone with 1 or more Ranks in Defensive Training (okay, they'll get the Deflection 2 Quality)

Defensive Training only seems lackluster when using two very specific lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and Lorrdian Gemstone). And then only if you don't invest in Defensive Training, which if a PC is going to focus on being a lightsaber duelist, they'll have plenty of chances to do as said talent shows up in four of the LS Form specs (twice in Niman), and with the exception of Makashi Duelist is fairly easy to work around if you really don't want the talent.

I find it odd that they would put two very specifi lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and lorrdian gemstone) to replace a talent, Defensive Training, for the specs that don't have access to it.... not every talent has a gear equivalent... and making said gear better then the talent is even strangier.

Could be that the intent is that they're there for folks that don't have access to Defensive Training. After all, while the other specs may not offer Lightsaber as a career skill, there's nothing stopping a PC from picking up a couple ranks as a non-career skill and packing a lightsaber as their melee weapon of choice. And if they're only going to take a single LS Form spec, then the Lorrdian Gemstone's benefit (especially once modded and stacked with a curved hilt for extra melee defense) becomes a lot more attractive.

While I think I might have suggested something similar in the past, in retrospect I'd disagree with the idea of Defensive Training adding both Defensive and Deflection starts making it too good of a talent, particularly for specializations where said talent can be picked up cheaply (Shien Expert for 5 XP and Niman Duelist for 10 XP after Niman Technique), to the point where it becomes a "why wouldn't I take this talent?!" type of deal, especially since it doesn't require the person to be Force-sensitive, and the specs are available to PCs built using the EotE or AoR books.

While I did do something similar with the Lightsaber Defense talent I made for my Ways of the Force fan-doc, I also made it a Force talent and restricted entirely to using a lightsaber, where in contrast Defensive Training works for any Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon.

Another option is to make Defensive Training give Defensive +1 to a weapon whether it has a Defensive rating or not, and simply move it to to a lower row on the trees, if necessary.

I really don't like how this talent penalizes a player who chooses a defensive weapon, and also I can't understand the in-game explanation for such restriction.

Another option is to make Defensive Training give Defensive +1 to a weapon whether it has a Defensive rating or not, and simply move it to to a lower row on the trees, if necessary.

I really don't like how this talent penalizes a player who chooses a defensive weapon, and also I can't understand the in-game explanation for such restriction.

Well, there might be some concern about PCs that not only stack up on ranks of Defensive Training, but then pile a fully-tweaked Lorrdian Gemstone and curved hilt as well as donning armored clothing or armored robes. That starts getting into some very excessive numbers of setback dice onto an opponent's difficulty for melee checks, and one thing that the designers have been fairly adamant about is generally avoiding the huge piles of dice that is commonly seen in games like HERO/Champions and Shadowrun. Which is probably why the restriction is there in the first place, to avoid said problem.

While I think I might have suggested something similar in the past, in retrospect I'd disagree with the idea of Defensive Training adding both Defensive and Deflection starts making it too good of a talent, particularly for specializations where said talent can be picked up cheaply (Shien Expert for 5 XP and Niman Duelist for 10 XP after Niman Technique), to the point where it becomes a "why wouldn't I take this talent?!" type of deal, especially since it doesn't require the person to be Force-sensitive, and the specs are available to PCs built using the EotE or AoR books.

While I did do something similar with the Lightsaber Defense talent I made for my Ways of the Force fan-doc, I also made it a Force talent and restricted entirely to using a lightsaber, where in contrast Defensive Training works for any Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon.

I hadn't noticed that Defensive Training also works with Melee and Brawl weapons... I agree that the way it is written, giving it both Defensive and Deflection would make it a must for any close range fighter. I can easily see players using shock gauntlets or something similar to always have the Defensive bonus active...

I too would restrict this talent to Lightsabers... probably making it a force talent.... because it is always trickier to draw a lightsaber then a pair of shock gauntlets.

Maybe the reasoning behind this talent is that Lightsaber (with breach) combat is always deadlier then ranged combat... The problem is that it's all too easy to move from Engaged to Short and shoot the jedi with a P difficult check, where melee is always a PP difficulty check.

This talent is a hard one...

The brutal honest reality is that some talents just aren't that good. There's a lot of tree's, especially if you go back to EotE that have kinda Meh talents (Knockdown for instance,) or are really expensive for what you get.

If they make every talent in Force & Destiny super awesome, it will outstrip the previous core books.

For what it's worth I've never thought Defensive training was that bad.

Another option is to make Defensive Training give Defensive +1 to a weapon whether it has a Defensive rating or not, and simply move it to to a lower row on the trees, if necessary.

I really don't like how this talent penalizes a player who chooses a defensive weapon, and also I can't understand the in-game explanation for such restriction.

Well, there might be some concern about PCs that not only stack up on ranks of Defensive Training, but then pile a fully-tweaked Lorrdian Gemstone and curved hilt as well as donning armored clothing or armored robes. That starts getting into some very excessive numbers of setback dice onto an opponent's difficulty for melee checks, and one thing that the designers have been fairly adamant about is generally avoiding the huge piles of dice that is commonly seen in games like HERO/Champions and Shadowrun. Which is probably why the restriction is there in the first place, to avoid said problem.

Then, take Defensive Training off of some trees. Maybe put a Deflective Training (weapon gets +1 Deflection rating).

The number of setback die would still be fairly limited, this way.

Also, I don't think Armor defense should stack with an item's Defensive rating, just like cover.

Agreed with split light. The talent as a single rank is a touch sub par, but with 2-4 ranks it's not so bad. It also strikes me as a talent that has similar utility to precise aim. a talent that is of questionable utility with one rank, and much better with 2-3 ranks.

I guess I'm a little surprised it's only in makashi once. If any form was to have multiple instances of that being the dueling form after all...

Defensive Training only seems lackluster when using two very specific lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and Lorrdian Gemstone). And then only if you don't invest in Defensive Training, which if a PC is going to focus on being a lightsaber duelist, they'll have plenty of chances to do as said talent shows up in four of the LS Form specs (twice in Niman), and with the exception of Makashi Duelist is fairly easy to work around if you really don't want the talent.

I find it odd that they would put two very specifi lightsaber attachments (curved hilt and lorrdian gemstone) to replace a talent, Defensive Training, for the specs that don't have access to it.... not every talent has a gear equivalent... and making said gear better then the talent is even strangier.

Anyway... my suggestion is to have Defensive Training give both Defensive and Reflection to the LS, equal to ranks in DT.

Any other suggestions ? Comments ?

I think that's a conscious choice so that it doesn't replace the cover mechanic, so that Force users are still expected to take cover, except with rare gear?

that hilt mod also adds +1 defensive, so that stacks with defensive training.

Actually that's not quite how it works. The Defensive +1's stack up with any 'base' Item Quality Talents and then 'finalize' as a singular Item Quality Talent, which is then replaced by Defensive Training.

So, maxing out a Lorrdian Crystal and a Curved Hilt is useless for anyone with 1 or more Ranks in Defensive Training (okay, they'll get the Deflection 2 Quality)

Yeah, I don't read it that way at all. I read it as applying to any inherent ranks a weapon possesses and adding the +1 mods after that calculation. I take the statement about multiple sources of defense not stacking as taking the higher calculation for that damage type...all damage vs melee damage, per the example (pg. 150 FaD)....it never specifies as defense 1 coming from armor and defense 2 coming from an entirely different source, such as a weapon. The source rule would apply to something like ranged defense plus melee defense when only one type of damage applies seeing as these are two different sources of defense. What book/page shows the calculation order as you describe or was it covered in an errata update?

The brutal honest reality is that some talents just aren't that good. There's a lot of tree's, especially if you go back to EotE that have kinda Meh talents (Knockdown for instance,) or are really expensive for what you get.

If they make every talent in Force & Destiny super awesome, it will outstrip the previous core books.

More to my point above, this is from the EotE faq:

Would the item mods be increasing the static value of the weapons defensive quality?

So cover is defense 1

Lorrdiran crystal with defensive 1 +1 defensive mod + curved hilt defensive mod: Defensive 3

Armored clothing with improved armor master for defense of 2.

So this character would not benefit from gaining cover, as that static bonus would never be better than the static bonus of the weapon with defensive 3 or the armor (which provides defense of 2).

Or is this line of thinking wrong?